[Tzaar]

I'm headed off to architecture school, and alas, after 21 years of only using a mac, I must buy my first PC. Can anybody help me out with:

-what is the best PC?
-are Dells quality?
-where should i buy one?

I need a computer for CAD and photoshop. My budget is around 2000, and I don't need a monitor.


Thanks,
T

[wataru]

I'd read this first.

[Scifience]

Dells are not quality.

My mom bought one a little over a year ago and it has already had to be repaired twice.

If you must get a PC, buy the parts and build it yourself. For $2000, you can get one nice system without a monitor if you do it that way.

http://www.newegg.com/ is a good place to buy parts.

[Randman]

There was a thread here recently about Macs, PCs and the architecture business. Should search for that and give it a read as well.

[-Q-]

Originally posted by Scifience:
If you must get a PC, buy the parts and build it yourself. For $2000, you can get one nice system without a monitor if you do it that way.

http://www.newegg.com/ is a good place to buy parts.

$2000? Good god, that's an expensive PC. I just built one for $500 with a Radeon 9800, AMD 3200+ and 512 MB of RAM. But you have to be willing to troubleshoot things if the assembly doesn't go right, or you have some sort of conflict with things (like, for instance, my external speakers aren't working so I have to troubleshoot that).

And in the PC world, Dells are relatively good. Their margins are so low that they try and use decent components in their PCs so they don't have to deal with returns. It won't have nearly the industrial design that a mac will have, but you are going with the commodity provider and not the specialist.

[Scifience]

Originally posted by -Q-:
$2000? Good god, that's an expensive PC. I just built one for $500 with a Radeon 9800, AMD 3200+ and 512 MB of RAM. But you have to be willing to troubleshoot things if the assembly doesn't go right, or you have some sort of conflict with things (like, for instance, my external speakers aren't working so I have to troubleshoot that).

And in the PC world, Dells are relatively good. Their margins are so low that they try and use decent components in their PCs so they don't have to deal with returns. It won't have nearly the industrial design that a mac will have, but you are going with the commodity provider and not the specialist.

I spent about $3000 back in May on my system.

AMD64 3200+, 1GB RAM, nVidia GeForce 6800 GT, Creative GigaWorks 5.1 Speakers, Audigy 2 ZS, etc. Pretty much every top of the line (at the time) component I could stick into it.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by Scifience:
If you must get a PC, buy the parts and build it yourself. For $2000, you can get one nice system without a monitor if you do it that way.

Not.

Tzaar, go for a name brand PC unless you have a lot of time on your hands and you're a tinkerer. I build my own PCs too, but quite frankly, I think it's a waste of time (and money) for most people, esp. if anything needs to be fixed.

$1500 should get you a reasonable system with all the necessary basic fixins (although not the fastest components). If you want a low end budget box, $1000 is doable. The el cheapo lowest end boxes suck though.

Why do you need a PC anyway?

[hayesk]

Originally posted by Tzaar:
I'm headed off to architecture school, and alas, after 21 years of only using a mac, I must buy my first PC. Can anybody help me out with:

-what is the best PC?
-are Dells quality?
-where should i buy one?

I need a computer for CAD and photoshop. My budget is around 2000, and I don't need a monitor.

What CAD apps are they using? If it isn't AutoCAD, then there may be Mac versions of the software.

Look at http://www.architosh.com

But if you really do need a PC, build your own. Don't buy a Dell.

[effgee]

Originally posted by Tzaar:
... I must buy my first PC.

Heh - I hear ya. I ordered my first PC (in several years) just 5 minutes ago. Between buying a ready-made box and a whole bunch of parts, I decided to take the "middle-route". I ordered a Shuttle XPC case (they come with the mainboard and cooling system installed and are pre-wired).

If you can live with the limited expandability (two AGP/PCI-E slots, 2 or 4 RAM slots) and value the portability you might want to take a closer look at them.

Here's two recent reviews - anandtech.com and tomshardware.com of the Shuttle SB81P case (the "second-newest")

I had initially planned on spending approx. 1000 € but decided to beef it up a tiny bit and ended up getting the case mentioned above, a 3.2GHZ P4, 256MB Radeon X700, 2GB RAM and a 160GB Hitachi HD for around 1300 €

All I have to do when the order arrives is to open the case and pop in the processor, video card, RAM, optical drive and the HD. One thing to keep in mind though, is that if you don't already have the OS (which I do) you're going to have to buy that seperately.

Good luck!




(edit: fixed typo)

[Tzaar]

Thanks for the feedback. I fear that the company does infact use autoCAD, in which case i would need a PC. Believe me, if I could stick with getting a mac, I would do it.

Does anybody have an idea as to how the single 1.8ghz G5 compares in the PC world?

Tzaar

[wdlove]

I just can't imagine being in a position that I had to purchase a PC. I wish you luck with your purchase.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by Tzaar:
Does anybody have an idea as to how the single 1.8ghz G5 compares in the PC world?

Very difficult to say, but depending on the app, anywhere from a 2.0 GHz P4 to a 2.53 GHz P4. (A lot of apps that run on both platforms have been better optimized for the P4.) But that's only if you're doing pure raw speed tests running the CPU at 100% doing one thing, which is not the way most people work.

Personally though, if I were to buy a single G5 Mac, I'd just get an iMac, since it's so much cheaper for what you get. It's true the single 1.8 offers the expandability the iMac doesn't, but IMO the Power Macs' sweet spot is the dual 1.8 or dual 2.0.

[webcookie]

I've had three Dell computers since 1997 and they've all been crappy. The one from 1997 was the least crappy. The second one, from about 1999ish, was the worst. The hard drive was replaced twice, and the motherboard was replaced twice, and after that the problems still persisted and Dell would not replace the computer. I got my own hard drive and installed XP (it came with ME) and it worked much better after that. My Dell laptop started to have some issues, but I sold it after less than a year of use. Dell's tech support, if you can call it that, is less than satisfactory. They don't speak understandable English either. My opinion: Dell = crap.

[Avenir]

Originally posted by Tzaar:
I'm headed off to architecture school, and alas, after 21 years of only using a mac, I must buy my first PC. Can anybody help me out with:

-what is the best PC?
-are Dells quality?
-where should i buy one?

I need a computer for CAD and photoshop. My budget is around 2000, and I don't need a monitor.


Thanks,
T

I can relate. I'm about halfway through my 5th year to get a B-ARCH as well. My school is entirely PC (the ARCH department that is). The program here is traditional, lots of hand drafting stuff, but for AutoCAD I just use the school's machines. I thought about grabbing Mac CAD stuff (VectorWorks or ArchiCAD), but my beloved PbTi probably wouldn't handle it. I lucked out and got an internship for the past three years at a Mac firm that uses ArchiCAD, but after graduating, I might have to look into the PC thing. My plan, should it come to that, is to keep on using Macs for everything else, and just buy a minimal PC laptop (or even desktop) that can just run AutoCAD when I need it to. Are you worried about not begin able to do school work? Does your school have labs you could use? It's a pain having to go to campus to do my work, but not too bad, just forces me to manage my time better I guess.

Anyway, I'm rambling, but I hope it works out for ya. Good to hear there are still some other Mac-fan architects out there, maybe we should start a firm

Oh, and be sure you take a look at http://www.architosh.com, the forums there might be able to help you out with good PC's to get, should you absolutely have to get one.

[hayesk]

Originally posted by Avenir:
I thought about grabbing Mac CAD stuff (VectorWorks or ArchiCAD), but my beloved PbTi probably wouldn't handle it.

...

and just buy a minimal PC laptop (or even desktop) that can just run AutoCAD when I need it to.

Two conflicting statements. From what I hear, AutoCAD is a hog. Mind you, I haven't seen VectorWorks since the classic MacOS days, it ran very well on low end Macs at the time. You should probably try a demo at least.

[Tzaar]

haha, from the looks of it you're a but far away from boston, but i'll let you know if i ever get out to the islands.

thanks again,

Tzaar

[Avenir]

Originally posted by hayesk:
Two conflicting statements. From what I hear, AutoCAD is a hog. Mind you, I haven't seen VectorWorks since the classic MacOS days, it ran very well on low end Macs at the time. You should probably try a demo at least.

yeah, realized that when I said it. A "minimal" autocad PC will probably be pretty high end by other standards. If I end up at a mac firm, i'll look more into Mac CAD for my powerbook. besides, once apple gets those damn G5 PB's out, I'm gonna try to spring for one anyway, and that should handle it.

Or i could just work AT work, and not worry about taking stuff home.

[Avenir]

Originally posted by Tzaar:
haha, from the looks of it you're a but far away from boston, but i'll let you know if i ever get out to the islands.

thanks again,

Tzaar

heh heh.. actually, I'm at school in Indiana, and I'm not planning on going back home to work, probably stay here. I'm going to Boston this weekend actually (http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...hreadid=236397 ) and from what people tell me, I don't think I'd mind getting a job in that city, or anywhere on the east coast.

[The Godfather]

Originally posted by hayesk:
Two conflicting statements. From what I hear, AutoCAD is a hog. Mind you, I haven't seen VectorWorks since the classic MacOS days, it ran very well on low end Macs at the time. You should probably try a demo at least.

AutoCAD is not a hog (AutoCAD 2000 on a 333MHz Pentium 2 with 192MB RAM). I guess it depends on the complexity of the drawings you are dealing with. Maybe Autodesk.com has links to independent AucoCAD magazines, and look for CPU benchmarks and stuff.

P.S. maybe I don't notice AutoCAD's hogginess because I only use text commands

[Avenir]

Originally posted by The Godfather:
AutoCAD is not a hog (AutoCAD 2000 on a 333MHz Pentium 2 with 192MB RAM). I guess it depends on the complexity of the drawings you are dealing with. Maybe Autodesk.com has links to independent AucoCAD magazines, and look for CPU benchmarks and stuff.

P.S. maybe I don't notice AutoCAD's hogginess because I only use text commands

we're running it here on some pretty new gateways with P4's in 'em, and it flies until you start working in 3D or have a couple xrefs or something. text commands or not, it crawls for lots of stuff here, but I try not to use it too much anyway, plotting alone seems to be so slow that I usually just hand draft it

EDIT: Go figure, my 1000th post would be about architecture

[Tzaar]

what do you know, i'm up in vermont but i'm headed to boston for the weekend as well. i have a job interview at a firm, we'll see how things go!!!

Tzaar

[OreoCookie]

Well, are you going to be a heavy-duty CAD user? If so, maybe you should consider a professional graphics card. Nowadays, the technology is close to the usual cards, but their basically drivers are different. The gamer's cards' drivers are tweaked for performance, in games you don't care if a triangle is missing or so. Professional drivers are made so that everything is displayed properly, and then about performance.

If you have never cared a lot for hardware, I definitely advise against building a pc yourself unless you have a friend with sufficient experience. They are not easy to build and first-time builders save on things like PSU or RAM quite often. Cooling is also a big issue, Modern P4s easily dissipate more than 120 W under load.

Depending on the sizes of your models, you should get a sufficient amount of RAM. I heard from a guy working with Catia (that's a professional construction program for things like cars and fusion reactors) that such applications benefit from fast hds such as high-rpm SCSI drives or the WD Raptor which also has 10k rpm.

Why don't you check sites like architosh.com, it's a CAD/architecture site for Mac heads, they can tell you more, I guess.

[OreoCookie]

I did a quick look in architosh, it seems that there is a version of vector works for X, and I remember that there are mainly two CAD applications for architects: VectorWorks and AutoCAD (at least that's what I remember an architect friend told me).

[OreoCookie]

I did a quick look in architosh, it seems that there is a version of vector works for X, and I remember that there are mainly two CAD applications for architects: VectorWorks and AutoCAD (at least that's what I remember an architect friend told me).

Autodesk is thinking about porting AutoCAD to OS X, but that's the last thing I've heard.

[gautch]

I see all this stink about building your own..But not every one can build a PC.

Check out Alienware PC's they are great! Even the FBI runs them.
http://www.alienware.com/main.aspx

Also check out Boxx Technologies. An award winning Video Editing and 3D animation system. If it can HD Video and 3d animatin, then im positive it can handel CAD!
http://www.boxxtech.com/asp/default.asp

[milhous]

Forget all the others. Buy IBM.

http://www.pc.ibm.com

[theolein]

Originally posted by Avenir:
we're running it here on some pretty new gateways with P4's in 'em, and it flies until you start working in 3D or have a couple xrefs or something. text commands or not, it crawls for lots of stuff here, but I try not to use it too much anyway, plotting alone seems to be so slow that I usually just hand draft it

EDIT: Go figure, my 1000th post would be about architecture

I used to support AutoCAD 2002 at my old company, and the guy doing the CAD stuff was running it on a 2.4GHz Dell with a NVidia GeForce 4FX, i.e. neither was particularly hi end and it ran very well. The scripted extra's in AutoCAD run slowly on any system because AutoCad is still basically the same crap under the hood that it was 20 years ago, and the command line shows that.

[Superchicken]

If I bought a PC now it'd probably be an HP simply because they're at least playing friendly with Apple. I'd never buy Dell or Gateway and while I like the look of Sony's comps I've only ever heard bad things.

[The Godfather]

Originally posted by Avenir:
we're running it here on some pretty new gateways with P4's in 'em, and it flies until you start working in 3D or have a couple xrefs or something. text commands or not, it crawls for lots of stuff here, but I try not to use it too much anyway, plotting alone seems to be so slow that I usually just hand draft it

EDIT: Go figure, my 1000th post would be about architecture

I suspect that the DWGs that your XREFs link to may be excessively complicated. You know, a company logo with a billion vertices, or microscopic hatching patterns.

Hatching is evil, so is bitmap vectorization. Maybe if you redo those document templates, AutoCAD will go faster.

I really appreciate AutoCAD, for its advanced mechanical modeling tools. It is no replacement for 3DSMAX, but no other 3D app can replace ACAD.EXE for me.

[d0ubled0wn]

A guy I know bought an eMachines (2.8 P4) at Best Buy for $200 over the weekend, he was elated to find such a bargain. I was skeptical. Well, he just called to tell me he opened the case to pop in a video card... to his dismay it didn't have an AGP slot. This was going to be his gaming machine. Hmm, well, I shouldn't laugh at his misfortune. But he really brings it on himself because of his tendency to buy cheap sh!t.

[Kenneth]

My dad is looking for a notebook (upgrade from a Win98 desktop box), he tends to get the Celeron M notebook.

[The Godfather]

Tell your dad to get a real Centrino Pentium-M laptop, if that's within his budget of course.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

I can scarcely believe sometimes how some folks go all weak at the knees at the prospect of *gasp* ‘building’a PC. For pete’s freakin’ sake- if someone has half a brain to figure out how to use a complicated application, they can figure out how to put a few components together, and install an operating system. It’s also not difficult to figure out exactly what components to buy- if the choice are too complicated, simply compare with whatever overpriced ‘pre-assembled’ box that some company slaps a stencil on and charges you through the nose for assembly.

If the concept of installing a motherboard (easy) or putting a processor into a slot and applying a heatsink/fan assembly (used to be a little daunting with exposed-core processors) makes you weep like a little girl, then get a barebones system with the basics pre-assembled, and plop in drives, RAM, graphic card, etc.

People have bought the marketing ploy of needing some stencil company’s overall warranty, when every component of a ‘built’ system carries its own warranty anyway. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out which components need replacing, in the rare event they ever do. Buy quality components from brand name companies, and you should have few problems.

Half the reason for using PCs is the fact that they can be perfectly custom made to suit ones needs, and a killer system costs very little in comparison to buying a ‘stencil’ box. No matter what amount you pay for a stencil-box, you’ll get more bang for the buck cherry picking and assembling the components yourself.

It’s a tired old myth that there’s any big song and dance needed to make most PC hardware configurations work. If a person is too stupid to figure out, for example, that *duh* an Nvidia AGP card would need *duh* Nvidia drivers, (and even then only to work properly- it will work without the drivers) then they are too stupid for a computer anyway. Very few such things present anything different than installing new hardware for any platform, Mac, PC or otherwise. If things like jumpers or RAM slots bog someone’s mind, they couldn’t upgrade a Mac either.

Rather than fear, take a little time to learn- very quickly it dawns on a person that there’s not really a whole lot inside of ANY computer case that’s all that mystifying. There are only a few core components in any computer, (Mobo, CPU, RAM, storage, power, cooling) Mac or PC, and the rest is mostly empty space. Most things only plug in ONE way, and really do (despite myths to the contrary) simply turn on, and work right out of the box. It’s not rocket science to figure things out and actually understand how things work enough to be able to assemble a few parts.

[SubGeniux]

If you want a fast, powerful PC for architectural programs (CAD/CAM/3D, etc), go for BOXX, simply the best out there.

http://www.boxxtech.com/asp/default.asp

[mrtew]

I sure with Apple would get their act together and line up the software makers on their side so that people wouldn't HAVE to buy PCs. What an awful world when people are forced to buy a cheap product that they don't want because the better, more expensive one can't do the job. I feel your pain because I HAVE to use an HP at work all day. Sure makes my appreciate my Mac though!

[SubGeniux]

Originally posted by mrtew:
I sure with Apple would get their act together and line up the software makers on their side so that people wouldn't HAVE to buy PCs. What an awful world when people are forced to buy a cheap product that they don't want because the better, more expensive one can't do the job. I feel your pain because I HAVE to use an HP at work all day. Sure makes my appreciate my Mac though!

Yeah, it's a bummer. Some of my programs aren't even on the Mac, and if they are, they perform badly (XSI - no mac version, Combustion, Maya). That, and Apple trailing their feet with GFX board options. I'd love to simplify my setup to just Mac, but I can't se it happening for a while yet, if at all.