[Apple Pro Underwear]

Guilty or Not Guilty?

He admits he unintentionally used steroids in a grand jury hearing.

The question is did he know or not.

In 1998, their was much controversy about steroid use after what mark McGuire did. For BB to say I didn't know is ridiculous. I tried putting myself in his shoes but I don't see it. I am a office worker and even I would question any kind of pill or cream that was given to me.

[Komisar]

Gotta love those steroids

[lavar78]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
In 1998, their was much controversy about steroid use after what mark McGuire did. For BB to say I didn't know is ridiculous. I tried putting myself in his shoes but I don't see it. I am a office worker and even I would question any kind of pill or cream that was given to me.

I don't know if he knew or not, but I do think it's plausible. After all, don't they pay those trainers a lot of money to handle that kind of thing?

[CreepingDeth]

This does not look good for ManOfSteal.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

i'm willing to say Rickey never did any kind of steroids


(whether he used drugs that was legal at the time he was using it is another story but that can be said of all players)

[Eriamjh]

I betcha he thought about the fact that there was a good chance that his trainer was giving him steroids. However, there was no way he was going to ask.

Ignorance is his defense. "I didn't know", is a lot different from "I didn't ask".

[Dale Sorel]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
i'm willing to say Rickey never did any kind of steroids

All I gotta say is Bonds definitely has the puffy steroid cheeks

Go look at a picture from ~five year ago then tell me he doesn't do 'roids

[Joshua]

Yeah, I'd guess he knew. Even if he was some how dense enough not to suspect something when his trainer showed up with a mysterious cream of his own creation, as an athlete he should have noticed the unusual strength gain and the improved recovery time.

The bigger question that I see coming out of the BALCO situation is whether drug testing can realistically keep up with steroid development. There's obviously far more money to be had from selling the drugs than there is detecting their use.

[kupan787]

Supposedly he only used these for a year (only during the 03 season). He hasn't lost a lot of weight and bulk after stopping, like Giambi did, so I would tend to believe that. Had he been using them for a lengthy period, once he stopped he would have de-bulked just like Giambi. So the question becomes why would he knowingly take them? He had already crushed 73 HRs without the help of roids. He has been working out a ton more than he had previously. Plus he admits that everything he took was done in the clubhouse, in the sight of his teammates and reporters. If he knew what he was taking, and was trying to hide this, why do it in front of everyone?

But aside from all of this, steroids can't help his eye. His batting average isn't helped by the steroids. He has a good eye for when to swing or not, and the ability to pull a ball if he needs to, presented a situation. He is a great player, aside form the HRs. He has always said a ring is more important than the HR record. We shall see what happens to him, if he bows out quietly after this season (if he hits the mark), or if he keeps playing a couple more (body and age permitting) in the quest for that ring.

[kupan787]

Originally posted by Joshua:
when his trainer showed up with a mysterious cream of his own creation

But according to ESPN.com (I can't find the article now, sorry), the cream was being delivered in bottles marked for the substances Bonds thought he was taking. It wasn't random brown bottles, filled with mysterious cream. Bonds thought it was cream to help his arthrities, and the bottles were actual product bottles for the substance he thought he was taking. Granted, if you think he is lying, then all this shows is they were smart in trying to cover it up. At the same time, if you think he is telling the truth, this could be some evidence of that.

[bradoesch]

Where is ...

[Komisar]

aqua man?

[Joshua]

Originally posted by kupan787:
But according to ESPN.com (I can't find the article now, sorry), the cream was being delivered in bottles marked for the substances Bonds thought he was taking. It wasn't random brown bottles, filled with mysterious cream. Bonds thought it was cream to help his arthrities, and the bottles were actual product bottles for the substance he thought he was taking. Granted, if you think he is lying, then all this shows is they were smart in trying to cover it up. At the same time, if you think he is telling the truth, this could be some evidence of that.

Yeah, if that's true it may change Bonds culpability in the BALCO story. Personally, I think steroids are really part of a bigger problem facing baseball: namely, where to draw the line on medical enhancement. Take, for example, Bagwell's monthly cortisone shots, Curt Schilling's franken-ankle, Bret Boone's Lasik surgery, or the pitchers who are now coming back from Tommy John surgery with better velocity than ever before. I don't see those procedures as much different in terms of their effect on the game as steroids (the legality, obviously, is a separate issue).

Twenty or thirty years ago, pitchers that suffered elbow injuries or players that developed chronic injuries/poor eyesight were basically done--their careers were over. Now, we can patch them up (or even improve them) and send them right back out on the field to break records. That bothers me on some level, but there's nothing you can really do about it.

[Agasthya]

How is what Pete Rose did worse than this?

Such stupid ass politics.

I will say this though. Barry Bonds definitely knew what he was taking. But the key is whether he was told by his trainer. If Bonds asked his trainer to not tell him what he was taking, then he could legally plead that he did not know what he was taking despite the fact that it is complete ********.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

yeah, they send him the bill for Ben-Gay and it costs $450 bucks

like my ass he didn't know

never hit more than 40 homers and then hits 50, and then 73 homers and his entire body changes


blah blah blah

I take responsibility at my work place. He signed a million dollar contract that prohibits this, knows the integrity of the game is at stake and doesn't bother to be diligent about finding out what his trainer is giving him? his "dealer/trainer" must have said at the very least... "I want you to try this cream, it costs 500 bucks..." BB should have asked what that stuff was. No excuses, you used drugs, you are a cheater. He should have came clean to the public too.

[lavar78]

You're mixing two issues. Of course he's responsible. However, that doesn't mean he knew.

[ManOfSteal]

Phew, I'm late on this one...sorry guys! Anywho, I am all for Barry getting kicked out of the sport (yes, this is worse than Pete Rose)...and if not, all his "records" better come with some asterisks by them.

This makes Rickey even more greater than Barry Bonds now...as if, it was actually debatable before.

[Dex13]

Originally posted by ManOfSteal:
Phew, I'm late on this one...sorry guys! Anywho, I am all for Barry getting kicked out of the sport (yes, this is worse than Pete Rose)...and if not, all his "records" better come with some asterisks by them.

This makes Rickey even more greater than Barry Bonds now...as if, it was actually debatable before.

wow, then there are going to be a lot of asterisks everywhere, and if he get's kicked out, it's just as fair that half of baseball does as well.

[Komisar]

You know ManOfSteal, you shouldn't even be putting barry bonds in teh same sentence as rickey henderson

[ManOfSteal]

Originally posted by Komisar:
You know ManOfSteal, you shouldn't even be putting barry bonds in teh same sentence as rickey henderson

No kidding, I should be putting Bonds' name in the same sentence as other cheaters...my bad.

[ManOfSteal]

Originally posted by Dex13:
wow, then there are going to be a lot of asterisks everywhere, and if he get's kicked out, it's just as fair that half of baseball does as well.

Sure, why not? Gotta start somewhere, sometime.

Hell, than Rickey may have a spot on a major league roster again!

[lavar78]

Originally posted by Dex13:
wow, then there are going to be a lot of asterisks everywhere, and if he get's kicked out, it's just as fair that half of baseball does as well.

Why don't we just eliminate baseball altogether?

[bradoesch]

Originally posted by Komisar:
aqua man? http://www.harmonline.net/images/aquaman.gif

The only other name I know of is gorickey.

[ManOfSteal]

Originally posted by bradoesch:
The only other name I know of is gorickey.

I bet that guy is just shaking his head and laughing at this point on how stupid Bonds truly is.

[ManOfSteal]

Originally posted by lavar78:
Why don't we just eliminate baseball altogether?

...and the Olympics.

[Super Nova]

Originally posted by Komisar:
aqua man?

yes, aqua man

SuperNova

[kupan787]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
never hit more than 40 homers and then hits 50, and then 73 homers and his entire body changes

Wow, he couldn't have possibly hit the weights, and just gotten bigger on his own, he must have been cheating. How come now that he is off "the juice" his body hasn't radically changed? Why did Giambi's body change (visibly smaller, muscle mass decreased), but not Bonds? If Bonds had been taking roids for the past 5 years, he would have shrunk up a lot at this point, now being off everything for over a year. All of this steroid use was during the 03 season only. That is what Bonds testified to, the trainer testified to, and basically everyone else involved (Giambi, Balco, etc). He hit 73 back in 2001. That was before any of this.

For anyone who doubts Bonds ability as a player, I will let Peter Gammons explain it:

In 1999, Barry Bonds was already a Hall of Fame player. He had won three MVPs, and should have had a fourth. He hit .300 and averaged 36 homers a year in the '90s. He is such an intelligent hitter that teammates claim he knows every pitch that's coming, he's reduced the strike zone to the size of a nickel, and in the 21st Century has batted .306, .328, .370, .341 and .362, with on-base percentages of .440, .515. .582, .529 and .609. That's not chemical, that's simple greatness.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by kupan787:
Wow, he couldn't have possibly hit the weights, and just gotten bigger on his own, he must have been cheating. How come now that he is off "the juice" his body hasn't radically changed? Why did Giambi's body change (visibly smaller, muscle mass decreased), but not Bonds? If Bonds had been taking roids for the past 5 years, he would have shrunk up a lot at this point, now being off everything for over a year. All of this steroid use was during the 03 season only. That is what Bonds testified to, the trainer testified to, and basically everyone else involved (Giambi, Balco, etc). He hit 73 back in 2001. That was before any of this.

For anyone who doubts Bonds ability as a player, I will let Peter Gammons explain it:

he used steroids!

WTF are you saying? that steroids don't work on him? steroids only make losers better?

[Eriamjh]

Why does this remind me of the South Park episode where Jimmy took steroids to compete in the special olympics only to admit he did in the presence of Bonds, Giambi, and McGwire, who just stood there and smiled.

I believe Jimmy used the p-word to describe anyone who took steroids.

[ManOfSteal]

Originally posted by kupan787:
For anyone who doubts Bonds ability as a player, I will let Peter Gammons explain it:

"Barry Bonds was an idiot for using steroids, and then testifying to a Grand Jury that he was 'unaware' of his use of them. He should be punished to the fullest extent, even suspended for life is not out of the question."

- Peter Gammons

You are right, Peter did sum things up nicely with that explanation.

[vmpaul]

Originally posted by Dex13:
wow, then there are going to be a lot of asterisks everywhere, and if he get's kicked out, it's just as fair that half of baseball does as well.

OT - I heard something the other day. Supposedly the most famous 'asterisk' is the one attributed to Roger Maris and his breaking of the Babe's single season HR mark in 1960. The record is 'tainted', and I use that term lightly, because Maris played in more games than Ruth, i.e., 154 to 162. The interesting part is that Ruth actually had more at-bats than Maris did even though he played in fewer games.

Also, I think they said (please correct me if I'm wrong) there really isn't any asterisk put anywhere officially. That's just something said in public all the time.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

fay vincent took away the asterisk in the mid-80s i believe


"a baseball season is a baseball season" or something to that affect

[vmpaul]

Thanks, didn't know that.

[ManOfSteal]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
fay vincent took away the asterisk in the mid-80s i believe

1991. The same committee (MLB's Committee of Statistical Accuracy) over-ruled roughly 55+ no-hitters and made the following rules a must before you can officially claim a pitcher as having a "no-hitter"

1.) The pitcher must be the pitcher of record when the last out is recorded.
2.) The game must go at least 9 innings.
3.) The pitcher must win.

[sworthy]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
...
never hit more than 40 homers and then hits 50, and then 73 homers and his entire body changes

Not to nit-pick, but it's not like Marris hit anywhere near 60 homers in any other season. I doubt he was taking steroids.

Bonds on the other hand should be held liable, its shameful to have the home-run record holder admit to steroids.

[paully dub]

Maybe the Yankees can trade Giambi And Sheffield for Bonds.

I think the case could be made that Bonds conditioning, and thus superior physical form was in part due to using steroids, thus allowing him to be in such fantastic physical shape at 40, and thus have a chance to break some records. One wonders if, with Bonds' ego it wasn't strength that was the goal, but longevity, since he clearly is on a mission to break some records.

You can't compare Giambi, because Giambi was never the athlete that Bonds was, and perhaps suffered as a result afterwards. Who knows.

But it's been said that Bonds before 99 only hit one ball over 4 hundred something feet or whatever, and since he's hit a ton.

But he used them, c'mon look at his head!

[ManOfSteal]

Originally posted by paully dub:
I think the case could be made that Bonds conditioning, and thus superior physical form was in part due to using steroids, thus allowing him to be in such fantastic physical shape at 40, and thus have a chance to break some records.

You are probably right, and that is so sad. Take for example, Rickey Henderson...he's approaching the young age of 46, and is probably more in shape and of a superior physical form than 75% of the league...and to top it off, it's all natural.

[vmpaul]

Originally posted by paully dub:

I think the case could be made that Bonds conditioning, and thus superior physical form was in part due to using steroids, thus allowing him to be in such fantastic physical shape at 40, and thus have a chance to break some records. One wonders if, with Bonds' ego it wasn't strength that was the goal, but longevity, since he clearly is on a mission to break some records.

I'd agree. Here's some testimony from Kelli White, a former US Track star, who's also been in trouble because of her affiliation with BALCO:

Her doping program began in March 2003, she said, and it included "the clear,'' a testosterone-based balm known as the cream, and EPO, a blood- thickening agent that boosts endurance. She was surprised to learn that EPO could help sprinters, but she quickly discovered that she could train much harder while she was on it.

It isn't all about strength from steroids.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Agasthya:
How is what Pete Rose did worse than this?

I think the case could be made. Look, what Bonds did is not an isolated occurrence. Anyone who has followed the game for the last decade or more -- fans, journalists, etc -- was already aware baseball had a major steroid problem. This hasn't stopped fans from cheering on their favorite cheaters on their favorite teams. Scapegoating Bonds and Giambi for ruining the integrity of the game is a total joke when they're just two of a significant number of baseball stars who are likely using steroids; doping is a systemic problem in MLB. I haven't read the rest of Gammons' reaction to the doping scandal, but if he seriously thinks that banning Bonds and Giambi for life is enough to put this behind us then he's kidding himself. Yes I think Bonds, Giambi, etc deserve scorn for abusing our trust, but the real blame goes to the MLB, MLBPA, journalists, and fans who so willingly looked the other way for years while cheering for the tape-measure shots.

Besides, when was this much scorn heaped on Mark McGwire, who did essentially the same thing as Bonds?

However, I still think both Rose and Bonds should at least be in the Hall of Fame, because that institution should celebrate legitimate accomplishments in the sport, of which both had plenty. Public relations ability didn't used to be a criterion.

[kupan787]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
he used steroids!

WTF are you saying? that steroids don't work on him? steroids only make losers better?

I agree he took steroids, during the 03 season. But you are trying to claim he has taken them for 5+ years. I call ********. Look at his body now, off steroids. How is he still so big, yet Giambii has shrunk up VISIBLY. You never answer this, just keep avoiding it...

Originally posted by paully dub:
But it's been said that Bonds before 99 only hit one ball over 4 hundred something feet or whatever, and since he's hit a ton.

According to the same Peter Gammons article I quote earlier:

WFAN's Christopher Russo interviewed a home run distance expert who claimed that prior to 2000, Bonds hit three homers longer than 450 feet; in the last five years, he has hit 26

So no, he hasn't "hit a ton" About 10% of his home runs after 2000 were over 450 feet. Not "a ton" by any means. But what does this have to do with anything? Watch the home run derby, you can see most of them cranking the ball crazy far. Doesn't mean they are all juiced up.

Originally posted by ManOfSteal:
"Barry Bonds was an idiot for using steroids, and then testifying to a Grand Jury that he was 'unaware' of his use of them. He should be punished to the fullest extent, even suspended for life is not out of the question."

- Peter Gammons

You are right, Peter did sum things up nicely with that explanation.

I totally agree, if he lied then punish him completely. It was just stupid for him (if he knew), be it to help him as he aged, or whatever. What I was trying to show is that beyond the steroids, Bonds was (and is?) a phenomenal baseball player. I don't think anyone here can argue that.

[kcmac]

My take is a little different here.

This is the entertainment business. We go to see these guys hit homers, run fast, create huge collisions, etc. They are only hurting themselves, not any of us.

Tell me, when you go to the ballpark and watch Sosa, Bonds, etc crush a homer. Do you stand up and cheer and feel great to be a part of the fun, part of the experience? Or do you stand up, wave your arms and say, "that fr****ng bast##d. He's on steroids and is ruining the game!!"

Are you happy to see your stars/heroes playing later in their careers, even after sustaining major injuries which they seem to heal fairly quickly from? Maybe if they would have had the technology back then, guys like Gale Sayers might have played for another 5 to 10 years and I bet everyone would have went rushing out to see him make a comeback.

Drugs of one sort of the other have been a part of sports for a very long time. I heard George Brett the other day on the radio in KC. He was talking about some salve that they used to rub on themselves when they were feeling stiff sore and too hurt to play. Said it would fix you right up.

Did you quit listening to your favorite musician or call for an end to their music when you found out or knew they were taking mind altering drugs, which most likely aided in their creativity?

Do you agree or disagree that players taking shots or medications of any kind during an event are getting an edge that they shouldn't be allowed to get? And especially a medication that may not have been available to players in the past who had to sit out or worse yet quit playing all together?

It is entertainment. Until you are ready to take a step back in the performance of your favorite athletes or the sport, be careful what you wish for here.

And no offense MOS, but your man is definitely enhancing his health is some shape or form. Healing as quickly as a youngster, etc just ain't natural.

The Conti interview the other evening was very revealing. Designer drugs and programs for their delivery are seemingly very easy to do and to go undetected. Tim Montgomery added over 28 lbs of lean muscle in less than 2 months. Obviously everyone around him knew what was going on. But noone could prove it after extensive and frequent testing.

I'm turning my back. I enjoy the level of sports that I watch. While I am concerned with the health of the athlete, it is their decision. It is not mine.

[ManOfSteal]

Originally posted by kcmac:
And no offense MOS, but your man is definitely enhancing his health is some shape or form. Healing as quickly as a youngster, etc just ain't natural.

Not founded. Who says he heals faster than most youngsters? He is in better shape, which may lead to longer periods of non-serious injuries; however, Rickey can (and has) gotten injured just like everybody else. How he responds to such injuries, and the current situation of the season/team, have more to do with the "healing" time than his physical body...but of course, a more in shape body will lead to a much faster recovery time in the long run on injuries.

Rickey enhances his health in the form of 100-150 push-ups/day and 200+ sit-ups a day. And he runs 3-5 miles 4 days/week. Yes, he has formed his body with no weights. Natural.

[kcmac]

Glad you believe it.

I could care less how he did it. I enjoyed watching him play. And that is my point. Drug free or not.

And just wait till you hit your 40's. You will know what I mean. ;_)

Hank Aaron made a good point in his comments about Bonds. Can't help you hit the ball but might keep you hang around longer.

I believe Bonds works out extremely hard. So do guys like Jerry Rice. Freaks of nature? Hard work ethic? A little help?

Don't care.

[itai195]

Originally posted by kcmac:
I'm turning my back. I enjoy the level of sports that I watch. While I am concerned with the health of the athlete, it is their decision. It is not mine.

I can respect this POV. It's the hand-wringing over steroid use since the Bonds story broke that bugs me, given that anyone who observes baseball already knew it was big problem and didn't care.

[ManOfSteal]

Originally posted by kcmac:
I could care less how he did it.

Neither do I really; however, the fact that he hasn't used any sort of enhancement is what I care about.

[kcmac]

Exactly itai.

I find the Olympics stuff to be the craziest of all.

Growing up, we saw the East German women swimmers enter events with bigger frames than most of our NFL players.

Remember the Chinese runners that said they were using some kind of special soup derived from an ostrich or some other kind of bird?

Athletes get busted all of the time in the Olympics but those that stand next in line to get the medal once it has been forfeited are obviously just as big and ripped as the person that got caught.

It is obvious that the designer drug industry is filled with brilliant people believing that they are only helping the athlete keep up with the competition. This industry is getting more advanced every day.

Sure, America could stop but what about the others? Do you really want our athletes to do away with this practice and then watch the others scoop up all of the medals?

Not me.

It is unfortunate that these people will most likely suffer great side effects and possibly shorten their time on this planet. But it is their choice, that they have made at a time of their lives that they deemed important to excel and win at their specialty.

[vmpaul]

I don't know kcmac, I understand your position but I don't feel the same way.

I like sports, and baseball is near the top. I think something needs to be done to control this or the sport could become unwatchable.

Geez, there's so many issues involved in this it's hard to discuss without crossing over to other angles. I'll try not to stray.

Baseball is a sport that, for a large part, is more entwined with the past by records and tradition than almost any other sport. It's a game that really hasn't changed much from when it was first played. If they were to allow all these chemically enhanced players to compete unfettered it would dramatically alter the landscape and competition on the field. In a much more significant way than just the normal gradual advances to training and sports medicine than we've seen so far.

I don't think it would be much different than how men's tennis has been lessened since the advent of the metal racket. I find it boring to watch how 150mph serves have affected the game. Or how golf would become if they didn't control the technology to some degree. Openly juiced up baseball players would affect the competition and how the game relates to its past.

And that's not even getting into the social or legal repercussions from allowing juiced players to compete.

Will players still cheat? Absolutely, but that doesn't mean you don't do anything about it. Let's face it, if every driver on the road decided to ignore posted speed limits there's not much the government could do either. That doesn't mean you don't try to set standards.

[vmpaul]

Originally posted by itai195:
I can respect this POV. It's the hand-wringing over steroid use since the Bonds story broke that bugs me, given that anyone who observes baseball already knew it was big problem and didn't care.

It's all been speculation up to now. There hasn't been any real proof. In fact, there's still not. I don't know how much can be done based on leaked testimony from a Grand Jury. I would suspect not much.

[Fiend]

Originally posted by kupan787:
I agree he took steroids, during the 03 season. But you are trying to claim he has taken them for 5+ years. I call ********. Look at his body now, off steroids. How is he still so big, yet Giambii has shrunk up VISIBLY. You never answer this, just keep avoiding it...

Why do you think he is off them now? Just because the questions asked where about the '03 season, which he and others answered, doesn't mean before or after that time he wasn't using them or stopped. He only answered the questions that were asked of him. Giambi shrunk cause the effects caught up to him and he knew it. While they may never prove that his cancer or whatever they found was related to steriods, you can bet that it scared the **** out of him and in order to keep playing/make money, he had to stop. Nothing has happened to Bonds yet, at least that we have heard, that would make him want to stop.

[dreilly1]

Originally posted by ManOfSteal:
1991. The same committee (MLB's Committee of Statistical Accuracy) over-ruled roughly 55+ no-hitters and made the following rules a must before you can officially claim a pitcher as having a "no-hitter"

1.) The pitcher must be the pitcher of record when the last out is recorded.
2.) The game must go at least 9 innings.
3.) The pitcher must win.

Poor Andy Hawkins! It takes special talent to pitch a complete-game no-hitter and still lose, and that darn committee took the no-hitter away!