Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

l008com · Dec 5, 2004, 10:16 PM

I did some work for a school system a while back, and they bought about 30 new eMacs. The head computer guy said he only keeps 2 packs of Discs and tosses the rest, so he told me I could have them if I wanted. So I grabbed the Panther install discs, 1 2 and 3. Some are 10.3.3, some are 10.3.4. Is it legal for me to sell these on ebay? Or on these forums? I would think it is since they are original media, not copies, and they were legally given to me.

Xeo · Dec 5, 2004, 10:24 PM

As long as they aren't marked "Not for resale" then I think it's legal.

Oneota · Dec 5, 2004, 10:25 PM

Originally posted by l008com:
I did some work for a school system a while back, and they bought about 30 new eMacs. The head computer guy said he only keeps 2 packs of Discs and tosses the rest, so he told me I could have them if I wanted. So I grabbed the Panther install discs, 1 2 and 3. Some are 10.3.3, some are 10.3.4. Is it legal for me to sell these on ebay? Or on these forums? I would think it is since they are original media, not copies, and they were legally given to me.

Depends on if they bought their own site-license for the OS or not. If they did, and if they transfered the standalone licenses implicit with those CDs to you, then you could sell 'em, I suppose. But if they depend on the license accompanying each machine for their campus OS license (stupid thing to do, because they won't be able to upgrade to Tiger cheaply), then you only have the media, not the license.

Xeo · Dec 5, 2004, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by Oneota:
Depends on if they bought their own site-license for the OS or not. If they did, and if they transfered the standalone licenses implicit with those CDs to you, then you could sell 'em, I suppose. But if they depend on the license accompanying each machine for their campus OS license (stupid thing to do, because they won't be able to upgrade to Tiger cheaply), then you only have the media, not the license.

Oh true, you are right. If they are using the licenses associated with those discs then you can't sell them, or use them yourself legally. Only if they have a site license covering all those macs would it work.

I think I just repeated Oneota... oh well. He's right though.

l008com · Dec 5, 2004, 10:41 PM

hmmmmm well i have no idea if they have a site license or not

Truepop · Dec 5, 2004, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by Xeo:
As long as they aren't marked "Not for resale" then I think it's legal.

that really matters? most video stores I go in to sell posters that are marked not for resale.

l008com · Dec 5, 2004, 10:57 PM

Plus that wouldn't count for me anyway would it, since i'd be selling them at pulled from emac boxes, not as new retail panther discs?

Sarc · Dec 5, 2004, 11:06 PM

about the license thing ...

OS X never asked me for a serial number, (OS X Server does).
I really doubt it will matter when they want to upgrade to Tiger.

Xeo · Dec 6, 2004, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by Sarc:
about the license thing ...

OS X never asked me for a serial number, (OS X Server does).
I really doubt it will matter when they want to upgrade to Tiger.

I believe his point was, if they had a site license for OS X, the site license upgrade to Tiger would be much cheaper than buying a separate copy of Tiger for every machine. It's not whether the machines know or not, it's when purchasing the next set of licenses, a large organization will save a lot of money by going site wide and that it is foolish to maintain individual ones.

Of course I'm assuming you were talking about Oneota's post since I think he's the only one who mentioned Tiger.

Truepop sez:
that really matters? most video stores I go in to sell posters that are marked not for resale.

I think it does matter. Could be wrong though. Most "not for resale" items are either promotional items that were given away, and not given so others can make a profit, or they are part of a large group of items and are not meant to be bought that way so you can sell them off individually at a profit.

It could be that "not for resale" does not imply any legal issues, but rather moral ones, and by labeling it as such is a way to deter the potential seller from taking advantage of it. The consumer might see it as bad form.

But I really have no idea.

l008com · Dec 6, 2004, 12:31 AM

My thought on this school is that these machines are never ever going to be upgraded, and that they probably don't have a site licesnse, they probably just bought all the machines as is, and are going to leave them as is... until they get replaced in 5 years. But I could be wrong.

Eriamjh · Dec 6, 2004, 06:14 AM

He gave you the discs. His licensing problems are not your concern. Sell them. Buy him something for Xmas.

l008com · Dec 6, 2004, 06:16 AM

Originally posted by Eriamjh:
He gave you the discs. His licensing problems are not your concern. Sell them. Buy him something for Xmas.

I think your right. I have the discs. If I sell them as "given to me buy the owner" then I think that is enough. I got a **** load of these things too :-)

Oneota · Dec 6, 2004, 07:29 AM

Originally posted by Sarc:
about the license thing ...

OS X never asked me for a serial number, (OS X Server does).
I really doubt it will matter when they want to upgrade to Tiger.

The fact that OS X doesn't ask you to validate that you have a license does not mean that somewhere along the line you don't need to pay for the license. It simply means that Apple is nice enough not to be a pain in the butt about licensing for their clients (unlike Microsoft).

And yes, when they upgrade to Tiger, it'll *really* matter. If they didn't buy a volume license for the OS, then each machine can only run the OS that came with the machine. So if they try to do a unified OS deployment, they're breaking the law on a massive scale. Granted, Apple might not care (they probably actually do, but they won't likely call them on it), but state auditors certainly do. A school not far from where I'm working got fined half a million dollars not too long ago for license non-compliance. They were asked to prove they had a license for each and every copy of each and every piece of software on each and every machine, and when they couldn't: $$$. That's a huge dent on a school's budget. It's cheaper to do it right.

l008com · Dec 6, 2004, 07:31 AM

As I said, this school is probably simply not going to upgrade them.

Oneota · Dec 6, 2004, 07:34 AM

Originally posted by l008com:
As I said, this school is probably simply not going to upgrade them.

Okay; I was just expanding my reply for completeness.

If they don't have a site license, then you have no license to accompany those discs, and using them is not strictly kosher. Whether or not you care is up to you, but do be aware that you're not quite within the law.

mikellanes · Dec 6, 2004, 08:38 AM

I recently got an iMac G5 and tried to use the install disks (1 and 2 I think they are DVD?) on my G4 for a fresh install (rather go from 10.3.4 then start from 10.3) It wouldn't let me install on the G4 I think it checks what the machine is? I would make sure to test them out because unless someone is buying them for a new eMac then they might not work...

l008com · Dec 6, 2004, 08:42 AM

I already used them on my ibook and they seemed to work fine. I'll just put all the info I have in teh auction and people can bid or not. I'm only going to ask $20 per set so i don't know, well see.

dcmacdaddy · Dec 6, 2004, 09:58 AM

Licensing of software IS separate from installation of software. You could have 30 install disks with one license (not likely) or 30 disks with 30 licenses. Find out which it is.

My guess is that you have the latter which means the IT guy giving away the disks is a putz. He is not legally allowed to give them away. If he gets audited he must be able to provide a *physical* copy of the install media for each license he has, that is how individual software licenses works. So, if he doesn't have a site license then he needs to hang on to ALL of those install CD's.

I did this for years at my old job and it was a pain because I had to keep huge stacks of disks and note which disk came from which computer. I finally got them to buy a site-license when we upgraded to Jaguar. It saved them money and saved me a lot of time trying to track all those previous copies of the OS.

However, if/when you get a site license it automatically supercedes the individual licenses that accompany each set of disks, which invalidates that software for use. There is a lot of legal technicality invovled but essentially when you go from individual licenses per machines to a site license you can no longer use those previous individuals licenses as they have been subsumed under the site license. I had to throw out almost a hundred copies of various Mac OS installers when we got our site license to be in compliance.

Of course, I moved to a new job and have had to start all over again because they don't have a site license for Jaguar or Panther. I will probably get them to buy a site license for Panther just as Tiger is being released.

FYI, I work for the federal government. They have crazy strict rules about this. If I "knowingly" did what that guy did--giving away the installation media that accompanies a software license--I could be fined or charged with a criminal offense. The fines start around $10,000. Be careful.

wdlove · Dec 6, 2004, 10:18 AM

I'm also very surprised that the IT guy would give away 28 Panther discs. You never know what will happen down the line. It would seem best to have kept them.

macaddict0001 · Dec 6, 2004, 12:38 PM

He obviously didn't read the macosx license agreement before giving away the discs, I would say that you should kindly give them back and tell him it is his legal obligation to the school to keep these discs. And then try to scam the people on ebay who are trying to buy the discx.

scaught · Dec 6, 2004, 12:43 PM

let me know when you get some tiger discs, k?

l008com · Dec 6, 2004, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by scaught:
let me know when you get some tiger discs, k?

OK i'll call you in a few months ago

Oneota · Dec 6, 2004, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by mikellanes:
I recently got an iMac G5 and tried to use the install disks (1 and 2 I think they are DVD?) on my G4 for a fresh install (rather go from 10.3.4 then start from 10.3) It wouldn't let me install on the G4 I think it checks what the machine is? I would make sure to test them out because unless someone is buying them for a new eMac then they might not work...

Sounds like you may have gotten the Software Restore Disks confused with the Software Install disks. Software Install Disks are basically just Mac OS X Installer CDs, whereas Software Restore disks restore the HD to factory condition, including all pre-installed apps, games, etc.

Some recent models may only include Restore CDs, though, so you may be out of luck.

Captain Obvious · 02:29 PM

Originally posted by l008com:
I already used them on my ibook and they seemed to work fine. I'll just put all the info I have in teh auction and people can bid or not. I'm only going to ask $20 per set so i don't know, well see.

You were not given the Cds legally. The IT guy is not the owner or holder of the license agreement.

You can not sell them legally.
If a site license exists then you can not sell them because the agreement was made in such a way that only those computers owned by the school would be extended the rights to use the copy of the OS. Therefore no one else can agree to use the CD since it has no valid EULA.
If individual license agreements are in place then those eMacs are using the right to use the OS and those Cds correspond to that individual agreement.

Putting in a disclaimer on your auction that would say they were given to you �by the owner� is inaccurate and also would not relieve you of the liability of violating the licensing agreement. In fact both you and he could still be responsible for the fines.

Since you own a business and are an adult you�d be stupid to put these up for sale. Since all your assets can be taken to satisfy the cost of the fines should you not be able to pay them. Give them back to this guy or better yet to his supervisor since he deserves to be fired for doing such an idiotic thing as giving away school property.

Mrjinglesusa · 02:37 PM

Forget all the legal mumbo-jumbo. Fact is, if those computers are running the OS version that you are going to try and sell the disks for it is illegal. The license is being used by the computer it is ALREADY installed on - whether or not the disk is physically "there". For example, I could not sell the install disks for Jaguar that came with my computer because MY computer was running the software, hence I was using that license. When I bought Panther and upgraded my machine, I could then sell the Jaguar disks since I was not using the license anymore. When I upgrade to Tiger, I can then sell my Panther disks. Make sense? Bottom line - you cannot LEGALLY sell those disks. Period. Doesn't matter if your IT guy has individual licenses or a site-license.

As another example, when I was in Graduate School our school had a MS Software Purchasing Plan. We could download MS software (Office for example) and burn it to a CD to use. HOWEVER, you had to purchase a license for EVERY computer were going to install the software on. So, one disk required purchasing 5 licenses if you wanted the software on 5 computers. Works in reverse too - just because you have 30 copies of a program, if you don't have 30 licenses, you cannot install on 30 machines.

EDIT:

Oh, and what Captain Obvious said. Owning and operating a Macfixit business you should know better and should not have to come to a Mac forum to find out how a software license works.

GoGoReggieXPowars · Dec 6, 2004, 02:29 PM

No, you can't sell them, they belong to the machine they came with.

And your sig's too big.

cpt kangarooski · Dec 6, 2004, 02:52 PM

I'd want to see the license and research the relevant law (which I'm not going to do since I'm really not that interested) but my gut reaction is this:

You probably shouldn't keep them or sell them. Not because of the EULA -- that isn't binding on you, since you never agreed to it here -- but because they belong to the school, and the admin probably isn't allowed to just get rid of them however he likes.

However, assuming that he is, then the school may have violated the EULA. Again, that's really not your problem, since you are not a party to it. If the EULA was a term of sale, then you can go ahead and sell the CDs, and other people can use them (though they probably should avoid using them in a manner that involves the EULA). If it was a regular contract, then again, you may not be the proper owner of the copies. AFAIK there's probably more of a tendancy to consider software to fall under sales law than the common law of contracts, but it really hasn't been resolved.

you should know better and should not have to come to a Mac forum to find out how a software license works.

No one knows how they work, or even if they really exist or are just words not worth the paper they're printed on.

Frankly, I think that EULAs are amazingly worthless and that there is no reason for them to exist as to ordinary off the shelf software in light of the relevant copyright laws. Personally I would like nothing more than to see the whole idea flatly prohibited about 99.44% of the time. Software is not materially different from art, books, music, videos, etc. all of which are simply sold. Regular sales transactions are simple to understand and should be the only mechanism used almost all the time. Very very rare cases might call for something different, but I don't see that this is one of them.

Eriamjh · Dec 7, 2004, 11:37 AM

I wonder if the responses would be different if he gave you a bunch of Windows XP discs with serial numbers?

dcmacdaddy · Dec 7, 2004, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by Eriamjh:
I wonder if the responses would be different if he gave you a bunch of Windows XP discs with serial numbers?

Nope. Obeying the law regarding software licensing doesn't really matter what software you are dealing with? Does it?

Turias · Dec 7, 2004, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by Eriamjh:
I wonder if the responses would be different if he gave you a bunch of Windows XP discs with serial numbers?

This issue would have never come up had the discs been Windows XP installers. I mean, come on! He would have just given them away instead of trying to sell them!

l008com · Dec 7, 2004, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by Turias:
This issue would have never come up had the discs been Windows XP installers. I mean, come on! He would have just given them away instead of trying to sell them!

Give people windows XP? What kind of asshole do you think i am?!

Turias · Dec 7, 2004, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by l008com:
Give people windows XP? What kind of asshole do you think i am?!

But Windows XP is worth, what, $2.50? It's easier to just give it away then try and collect that.

l008com · Dec 7, 2004, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by Turias:
But Windows XP is worth, what, $2.50? It's easier to just give it away then try and collect that.

Oh maybe you meant that i'd give XP to my enemies.

brapper · Dec 7, 2004, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by l008com:
I already used them on my ibook and they seemed to work fine. I'll just put all the info I have in teh auction and people can bid or not. I'm only going to ask $20 per set so i don't know, well see.

got any extra disk 2s? Mine wont mount for some reason, and there's no visible damage.

Eriamjh · Dec 8, 2004, 06:23 AM

Originally posted by dcmacdaddy:
Nope. Obeying the law regarding software licensing doesn't really matter what software you are dealing with? Does it?

Actually, what "license" is there regarding these CDs? He did not agree to anything. l008com did not open anything. He did not click on anything. He simply posseses these CDs.

dcmacdaddy · Dec 8, 2004, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by dcmacdaddy:
Nope. Obeying the law regarding software licensing doesn't really matter what software you are dealing with? Does it?

Originally posted by Eriamjh:
Actually, what "license" is there regarding these CDs? He did not agree to anything. l008com did not open anything. He did not click on anything. He simply posseses these CDs.

Re-read the whole thread and you will see where several posters, myself included, pointed out how there could/will be a license associated with these discs. And the license applies to their use whether or not l008com clicked on anything. Because, the dumb-ass IT tech at the school had to click on an EULA to get the machines he unboxed up and running. So, unless the IT tech didn't set-up or turn on the number of computers corresponding to the number of discs in the possession of l008com, then there are a bunch of Mac's at that school NOT in license compliance because the discs which contain their software are not kept/controlled by the school, they are in the possession of l008com.

It is not ilegal to possess the CD's. But l008com didn't come on here asking about the legality of possessing said CD's; He asked about the legality of *selling* them and that is most definitely illegal.

If he wants to put a huge stack of them in the corner of his bedroom just to look at he can do that but the minute he actually uses one of the CD's for its intended purpose--installing software--then he has to adhere to the software licensing terms associated with the CD . . . excpet those terms for that particular disc apply to a Mac at one of the local schools.

The person who broke the law in regards to the possession of the CD's is the dumb-ass IT tech at the school who gave the discs to l008com. He broke the law by giving away discs that needed to be kept with the computers they came with.

Randman · Dec 8, 2004, 09:01 AM

Also, the first poster's sig indicates he tries to run some type of business related to Macs.
If you want to be legal, approach the school and offer to buy them at a fair price. That'll make it legal and free you from any responsibility should anyone report you for selling "hot" discs.

turtle777 · Dec 8, 2004, 09:11 AM

Actually, the more I think about it, this thread should be locked.

-t

dcmacdaddy · Dec 8, 2004, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by Randman:
Also, the first poster's sig indicates he tries to run some type of business related to Macs.
If you want to be legal, approach the school and offer to buy them at a fair price. That'll make it legal and free you from any responsibility should anyone report you for selling "hot" discs.

The school is not legally allowed to sell the discs without selling the computers they came with as well. He would need to approach the school and offer to buy the Mac's that the software was intended to be run on, not just the software. As long as the school is using the Mac's unpacked by that dumb-ass IT tech the school MUST MUST MUST keep the software install discs for those Mac's in its possession.

The discs are legal proof of a one-to-one licensing arrangement between Apple Computer and the school: For every one computer bought they are given one sets of discs to be used on that one computer. The license terms explicitly outline this with lots of legal mumbo-jumbo.

The school could also have a one-to-many licensing arrangement with Apple whereby only one set of software discs is needed for many computers in the school's possession. This is your typical "site" or "multi-user" license arrangement. However, if the school had this arrangement with Apple, it does not free up the license that came with each computer to be used elsewhere, it supersedes that license rendering it legally invalid. The school would then have to prove that it is no longer using those individual licenses on any computers covered by the multiple-user license.

The simply point is that the use of the discs CANNOT legally be made separate from the use of the computer. If one is using the computer then one must have use/possession of the discs supplied with that computer. If one is using the discs then one must have use/possession of the computer they were intended to be run on.

Eriamjh · Dec 8, 2004, 10:32 AM

I'm calling the police right now.

macgyvr64 · Dec 8, 2004, 05:59 PM

Sell 'em as-is.

l008com · Dec 8, 2004, 06:54 PM

Worst case, from what I've been reading, I would think that it is legal for me to sell them, and it would be legal for someone else to buy them. The only issue would be, once someone purchased them, is it legal for them to use them. And I'm still not sure that the answer would always be no, based on your guys interpretation of apples agreement that none of us read anyway :-D

Captain Obvious · Dec 8, 2004, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by l008com:
Worst case, from what I've been reading, I would think that it is legal for me to sell them, and it would be legal for someone else to buy them. The only issue would be, once someone purchased them, is it legal for them to use them. And I'm still not sure that the answer would always be no, based on your guys interpretation of apples agreement that none of us read anyway :-D

The answer is no. Kid yourself all you want but unless you purcahsed the license to use those copies and the school stopped using the eMacs you can not sell them legally. Seriously, are you that half-witted you didn't understand what I and others have said.

macgyvr64 · Dec 8, 2004, 07:04 PM

You could have just sold them and not even brought it up here and no one would be the wiser. "It's not illegal until you get caught." :-D

Eriamjh · Dec 8, 2004, 08:18 PM

...unless you purcahsed the license to use those copies and the school stopped using the eMacs you can not sell them legally.

You'll have to prove that in court.

OpenStep · Dec 8, 2004, 08:33 PM

don't ask... just put them on ebay with pictures clearly showing what the people are bidding on and sell it as-is.

Mr. Blur · Dec 8, 2004, 09:39 PM

i am always astounded by some people's total lack of respect for license agreements.

Randman · Dec 8, 2004, 10:35 PM

Some people have no values and expect to make money for nothing. Honestly, if there was any doubt that the sale was legal, the original poster wouldn't have even created a thread on this to ask.

macgyvr64 · Dec 8, 2004, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by Randman:
Some people have no values and expect to make money for nothing. Honestly, if there was any doubt that the sale was legal, the original poster wouldn't have even created a thread on this to ask.

He got the discs for free, why not sell them? I'm not one to go scamming people, but I would sell them as-is. Apple got their money; someone bought a Mac with each of those sets. And it's not like l008com will be making a retail Panther $129 on each set...maybe $25 each. There are far worse things you could do.

Mr. Blur · Dec 8, 2004, 11:17 PM

Originally posted by macgyvr64:
He got the discs for free, why not sell them? I'm not one to go scamming people, but I would sell them as-is. Apple got their money; someone bought a Mac with each of those sets. And it's not like l008com will be making a retail Panther $129 on each set...maybe $25 each. There are far worse things you could do.

Because they really are not his to sell, despite being given to him by another moron IT guy that doesn't know about license agreements. And while this guy may not make $129 on them, the people that buy his illegimate discs are *not* paying Apple for what they are using....bottom line is it is wrong.