[olePigeon]

Link

So probably the single most important advancement to Windows won't even be included in the next version of Windows, nor will it be included in the update in 2 years following the release of Longhorn Server. So this possibly puts WinFS by 2010 at the earliest.

"The software maker has already decided that WinFS will ship separately from Longhorn, the new desktop version of Windows that is due in 2006. On Friday, Windows Server Chief Bob Muglia said that WinFS will also not be a part of the server version of Longhorn that ships in 2007."

"WinFS in not in the Longhorn client," he said in an interview. "It is also not in Longhorn Server."

It is not even clear if Microsoft will include it with the Longhorn update that is scheduled to follow a couple of years later.

So no WinFS in Longhorn Client or Server in 2007. And possibly no WinFS in even the 2009 update.

Holy crap. If Apple ever had a window of opportunity (no pun intended), it would be between 2005 and 2007.

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
Link

So probably the single most important advancement to Windows won't even be included in the next version of Windows, nor will it be included in the update in 2 years following the release of Longhorn Server. So this possibly puts WinFS by 2010 at the earliest.



So no WinFS in Longhorn Client or Server in 2007. And possibly no WinFS in even the 2009 update.

Holy crap. If Apple ever had a window of opportunity (no pun intended), it would be between 2005 and 2007.

…

What an opportunity. Let's hope Apple gets its ass in gear and puts forth 10.5 in 2007, or maybe even OS…XI?
Come on, what else does Longhorn have going for it? The FS feature was supposedly the "big one." It's like having Tiger without Spotlight, but the severity increased fivefold.

[Goldfinger]

It better be bug free if they need another 6 years. But we all know it won't.

[CharlesS]

So exactly why is an XP user supposed to want to upgrade to Longhorn in the first place again?

What is Longhorn going to be, anyway, a paid security patch?

[ManOfSteal]

Rumor has it that by 2010 the world will still be finding the next iPod killer as well...

[fireside]

Originally posted by ManOfSteal:
Rumor has it that by 2010 the world will still be finding the next iPod killer as well...

according to Spliffdaddy, Dell already released it

[Mr. Blur]

...at this rate, longhorn is going to be what win2000 (nt5) was meant to be 5 years ago....

[Superchicken]

Longhorn = Xp with a blue theme And that ugly Side bar.

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

What is WinFS supposed to do that is so great anyway?

[Superchicken]

File System = Database... it's like spotlight but more... and uhh... not real.

[ambush]

I suggest you stop posting until you know what you're talking about, SuperChicken.

Thank you.

[mdc]

Originally posted by Superchicken:
Longhorn = Xp with a blue theme And that ugly Side bar.

don't forget the transparent windows

[CD Hanks]

Longhorn will further modernize the Windows platform with new APIs, a new imaging system, new user interface protocols, and a bunch of other stuff (and a fair amount of things I'm sure MS won't reveal until later).

[Lancer409]

hope apple doesnt drop the ball. I want apple to do well, but .. *dont hurt me* .. not tooo tooo tooo well .. i dont want apple to be where microsoft is. i like spyware/adware/virii free computing ....

[macintologist]

One of the talking points I use as part of my campaign of convincing people to switch to Macs is: You can either experience the future now on the Mac, or you can wait another 4 years for the past to be released.

[effgee]

Originally posted by CD Hanks:
Longhorn will further modernize the Windows platform with new APIs, a new imaging system, new user interface protocols, and a bunch of other stuff (and a fair amount of things I'm sure MS won't deliver until later).

fixed™

[Athens]

Originally posted by ambush:
I suggest you stop posting until you know what you're talking about, SuperChicken.

Thank you.

Same could be said about your post in the politics section about Quebec

Is Longhorn min requirements still higher then what most average PC's are far below? Last I looked was going to be 3Ghz, 2GB Ram, and 64MB Video with a 3D accelerated video card.

[CD Hanks]

Originally posted by effgee:
fixed™

Given their track record, I wouldn't be terribly surprised. But it'd be bad from a marketability prospective.

[ReggieX]

Originally posted by Athens:
Is Longhorn min requirements still higher then what most average PC's are far below? Last I looked was going to be 3Ghz, 2GB Ram, and 64MB Video with a 3D accelerated video card.

Those were the initial requirements to have all the goodies running. It's still almost 2 years off, and the average PC should have the processor and video speed in that range.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO:
What is WinFS supposed to do that is so great anyway?

Basically, it would embed the whole filesystem in a giant SQL database. This is as opposed to Spotlight, which puts the files in a traditional filesystem but stores the metadata in an SQL database (rumored to be SQLite, which is known to be bundled in Tiger anyway).

There are probably advantages and disadvantages to both approaches. Tiger's is backward-compatibility; you can view a Spotlight-enabled filesystem on older machines (though the metadata isn't written out while it's being viewed there). WinFS, meanwhile, has no backward-compatibility.

The advantage to the WinFS approach is... well... to be honest, I don't know. As long as the metadata is kept properly up to date, there shouldn't be any problem with keeping the actual files in a traditional filesystem.

[gatekeeper]

What is it that MS needs WinFS for? (Thread @ Arstechnica)

[Superchicken]

Originally posted by ambush:
I suggest you stop posting until you know what you're talking about, SuperChicken.

Thank you.

Bite me. I know what I'm talking about. WinFS is essentially the creation of a File System that works like a database, where you can search the whole thing for things like photos created on a certain day, people in photos etc. It no longer has you store files in folders like the current paradigm but changes it.
It is one of the three major features that were supposed to be in Longhorn all of which have been cut, the other two being Indigo and Avalon.

Why don't you stop posting until you can stop being a giant ass.

[drive-thru]

Ok, I don't exactly know what I'm talking about here, so feel free to call me a giant ass or whatever, but...
...surely the file structure of an OS is a major (integral) part of said OS. I wouldn't have thought that shipping the filesystem at a later date as an add-on would be a simple thing to do, so wouldn't it likely mess with your existing set up of Longhorn?
Or is it as simple as running an update package and, voila, all your old files from the past 3 years are arranged into the new system?

[Superchicken]

Originally posted by drive-thru:
Ok, I don't exactly know what I'm talking about here, so feel free to call me a giant ass or whatever, but...
...surely the file structure of an OS is a major (integral) part of said OS. I wouldn't have thought that shipping the filesystem at a later date as an add-on would be a simple thing to do, so wouldn't it likely mess with your existing set up of Longhorn?
Or is it as simple as running an update package and, voila, all your old files from the past 3 years are arranged into the new system?

I'm not going to call you an ass because unlike Ambush you're not pretending as if you're smarter than everyone else here. I suggested he stop posting till he stops being an ass because he suggested I stop posting until I know what I'm talking about. However he seems to have forgotten that I rarely speak about that which I don't know, I tend to ask questions until I know what's what about whatever the heck it is I'm talking about... unlike Ambush who again is just generally an ass.

But you're right the File system is fairly important, but I imagine Microsoft developed a lot of the OS in a relatively modular format so as to allow themselves some wiggle room. Either that or they simply started redesigning for the older FS.

[typoon]

Originally posted by macintologist:
One of the talking points I use as part of my campaign of convincing people to switch to Macs is: You can either experience the future now on the Mac, or you can wait another 4 years for the past to be released.

That's Great I like that one.

[goMac]

Originally posted by Superchicken:
Longhorn = Xp with a blue theme And that ugly Side bar.

Don't underestimate Longhorn. It is much more than that. Longhorn is to Windows users what OS X is for us. There are massive API overhauls.

[Superchicken]

Originally posted by goMac:
Don't underestimate Longhorn. It is much more than that. Longhorn is to Windows users what OS X is for us. There are massive API overhauls.

Correction it WAS supposed to be that, but the three key features that were supposed to bring it up to date have all been dropped. And XP was more like that jump, moving to a more NT base. This is more like a Jaguar or what it was supposed to be or... well anyway yah some of the APIs are changed and they're changing a few things but it's not going to be as impressive as they planned.

[goMac]

Originally posted by Superchicken:
Correction it WAS supposed to be that, but the three key features that were supposed to bring it up to date have all been dropped. And XP was more like that jump, moving to a more NT base. This is more like a Jaguar or what it was supposed to be or... well anyway yah some of the APIs are changed and they're changing a few things but it's not going to be as impressive as they planned.

Indigo is a very powerful networking API. Win32 is replaced with an API just as powerful as Cocoa. The whole windowserver is being redone. DirectX is being redone and rewrapped into a new Game API. It's still got a lot left in it. Not to mention the MS version of Quartz might still arrive in time.

[Superchicken]

Originally posted by goMac:
Indigo is a very powerful networking API. Win32 is replaced with an API just as powerful as Cocoa. The whole windowserver is being redone. DirectX is being redone and rewrapped into a new Game API. It's still got a lot left in it. Not to mention the MS version of Quartz might still arrive in time.

Last I heard Indigo was also dropped as was Avalon/M$ Quartz, it apparently will be beta by the time it hits.

[mitchell_pgh]

Hype hype hype... Microsoft doesn't know when to keep it's mouth shut.

Over promise... under deliver. Very unlike Apple.

[olePigeon]

Originally posted by Millennium:
The advantage to the WinFS approach is... well... to be honest, I don't know. As long as the metadata is kept properly up to date, there shouldn't be any problem with keeping the actual files in a traditional filesystem.

The biggest advantage to Windows (and what will actually speed it up noticeably) is no fragmented HDs. That's actually one major advantage for a database FS.

Originally posted by Superchicken:
Last I heard Indigo was also dropped as was Avalon/M$ Quartz, it apparently will be beta by the time it hits.

That's what I heard too. Avalon is not going to make the Longhorn debut, but will be offered as a separate "beta" downloadable installer.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
The biggest advantage to Windows (and what will actually speed it up noticeably) is no fragmented HDs. That's actually one major advantage for a database FS.

That sort of thing can be done with traditional filesystems. Indeed, most filesystems have done it for years. Only the HFS and FAT families of filesystems haven't, actually; if you use OSX with UFS then your filesystem cannot become fragmented. Of course, UFS has many disadvantages which outweigh this in the minds of most.

Why did Apple and Microsoft design their filesystems in such a way that they could become fragmented? Actually, they both saw it as a usability issue. With an unfragmentable filesystem, it's possible to have 2G free on a hard drive but not be able to add a 1G file, if the system is fragmented badly enough. Disk space wasn't measured in gigabytes back then, of course, but the problem still existed on a smaller scale, and both Apple and Microsoft decided that it was better to allow for filesystem fragmentation than for this potentially-confusing situation to be allowed to take place.

By the way, the term "database FS" is a misnomer, because it implies that there are filesystems which are not databases. This isn't actually true; every filesystem in existence is, in fact, a form of database. A more proper term would be "query-based FS", since this is the only real difference: you can run SQL-like queries on such filesystems. That's how Spotlight works, actually.

[TETENAL]

Sorry, but I don't buy that. There are always files that grow over time, so it's technically impossible to have a file system that does not have fragmentation.

[goMac]

I actually thought Indigo was the only original one of the big 3 technologies left.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
Sorry, but I don't buy that. There are always files that grow over time, so it's technically impossible to have a file system that does not have fragmentation.

It can be done, but it takes a lot of work. The free space must be continually defragmented, or you will get the situation I described above, where you have enough free space on the disk but not enough contiguous free space to write the file. Early filesystems did not have this continuous-defragmentation technology, so it didn't work.

Relational databases experience much the same phenomenon, which is why they need to be "compacted" from time to time. As you delete records, the space isn't immediately removed from the data on disk; it is merely marked as deleted much like free space in a filesystem. To reclaim it, you have to perform an operation to remove it; this is sometimes called optimization, vacuuming, or compacting. For relational databases which store their data as files on disk, you see this as the file getting smaller, but on a relational filesystem it would result in defragmentation (since a disk's size does not change).

Relational filesystems really don't give you any unique advantages, except for querying. Don't get me wrong; query capability can be a wonderful thing. However, it is not the Great Leap Forward that Microsoft is hyping it to be. Spotlight's hype, while still somewhat exaggerated, is a more realistic reflection of what WinFS will also do; the only difference between them is backend implementation and even that isn't as much of a difference as some might think.