[hart]

I'm taking courses and trying to start working in web design and development. I found it pretty hard to second guess all the things that were going to happen to my projects when I got to school once a week and looked at them on a Windows machine. I would get some pretty harsh suprises. So I think I'm going to buy a Dell to work with cross-platform issues. Feels wierd after getting my sister and mother to dump theirs for Macs.

Anyway, I've never even owned a machine from that other operating system. Do they have some sort of development schedule that keeps all the afficionados eagerly waiting for WindowsWorld San Francisco or something to see the latest upgrades? If I buy something in the next week or so am I going to miss the great upgrade to 5ghz processors that everyone who knows anything has been waiting for?

I've been saving up for a G5 desktop so I don't want to break the bank but I do want a good enough machine so that I don't have to buy another one any time soon. I'm willing to do internal upgrades in the future to keep it running. As a bonus it would be nice to be able to get some gaming in with games that don't run on our beloved platform. I also want it to blend in with my Airport Extreme network.

Any advice, tips or warnings you guys can throw my way would be greatly appreciated. Sorry if this seems a bit off topic but I really need to make this buying decision w/in the context of being a dyed-in-the-wool Mac user and I know you guys are the ones to ask for THAT perspective.

Thanks

[itistoday]

Hmmm... I'm not aware of any MacWorld type things in the PC world because it's very unorganized. On the Mac side you have one company making the software and the hardware, while on the PC side you've got chaos. My advice would to try to get the best bang for your buck. Buy yourself a cheap PC, preferably assembled by yourself. For like $400-$700 you could probably get a really nice deal if you buy the parts separately and assemble them yourself. My recommendation is definitely http://www.pricewatch.com Don't give Dell your money, unless you don't feel like assembling it yourself, but be prepared to pay more for a windows box than you should, especially since you want to save up for that G5

[His Dudeness]

I still haven't figured out all the negativity towards Dell. I've got a new Inspiron 8600 that cost $1400. I'm happy with it. I'd check out one of those.

[Scotttheking]

Where are you located? I've got some extra computers I'm trying to get rid of, if you just need a cheap machine for web testing, my stuff is just add OS and go.

I build all my own systems, but if you wanted prebuilt, go for an emachines AMD based system.
I prefer AMD based systems over Intel based systems.

[SVass]

Buy a laptop with with a wireless card and you could occasionally take it to school, library, etc. You could make sure that it has firewire and get a keychain drive so you can easily exchange large files with anyone. sam (Note that a laptop from dell,ibm could more easily be resold later than could a home built desk top pc.)

[Superchicken]

I'd go with an eMachine if you want a quick cheap PC. Any PC nowadays that you can buy is gona be fine for web dev. No need to spend over 700. Make sure to not get a Dell or an Intel system.

[macaddict0001]

Get an amd based board.

[SafariX]

Advice: don't.

[PurpleGiant]

You already have a Mac? Get Virtual PC. Sure it's not super-snappy, but it's ideal for testing websites in Windows Browsers.

[TheBadgerHunter]

Originally posted by Superchicken:
I'd go with an eMachine if you want a quick cheap PC. Any PC nowadays that you can buy is gona be fine for web dev. No need to spend over 700. Make sure to not get a Dell or an Intel system.

Aren't they cheap crap?

Buy a PC. Don't feel guilty.

[Cubeoid]

Why the all new Lappy 486 from Compy!

[Scotttheking]

Originally posted by TheBadgerHunter:
Aren't they cheap crap?

Buy a PC. Don't feel guilty.

Emachines was crap a few years ago.
They aren't anymore.

[benb]

If you ever think you will be tempted to play a game or two on it (why not?) then get one with an AGP slot or better. Most entry level manufacturer PC's will come with integrated graphics and no AGP. Hence, no games.

[rambo47]

If you absolutely, positively, have to get a pc, then get an IBM ThinkPad. Spend a little extra $$ and get a good one. I keep a ThinkPad around the house and it's really a nice piece of kit. I'm no fan of Windows, but XP is not the steaming dung heap that Win98 was, and they're definitley usable. I'm going to throw Linux on my X31 ThinkPad, but I'm checking out WinXP right now, mostly keeping an eye on those bastards in Redmond. The X31 is a pretty lighweight machine and not super-capable in the processor or graphics department, but the T42 models are pretty sweet.

[FulcrumPilot]

Buy this instead if you can afford!

[Scotttheking]

Originally posted by FulcrumPilot:
Buy this instead if you can afford!

That's funny because I had that ad.

[bstone]

Rule #1: Never buy a PC
Rule #2: Build your own PC
Rule #3: Never buy or build your own PC. Get a Mac. If you have to, run QMEU and a Windoze image file, or WinTel, or Bochs, or Virtual PC or go to your library/school and use a PC there.

[Splinter]

Build your own and get the parts off www.newegg.com or www.tigerdirect.com they will have any and all the parts you could want don’t buy prebuilt. You get ripped off one way or another. They will sneak in some crappy integrated graphics or some stubborn mobo.

[misnomer]

Originally posted by Scotttheking:
Emachines was crap a few years ago.
They aren't anymore.

Agreed. They used to come in at the bottom of the reliability surveys but for the last couple of years they've been on top, besting the likes of Apple, Dell and IBM. Here's a very recent survey done by PCWorld:
http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/artic...14,pg,3,00.asp

[hart]

Originally posted by Splinter:
Build your own and get the parts off www.newegg.com or www.tigerdirect.com they will have any and all the parts you could want don’t buy prebuilt. You get ripped off one way or another. They will sneak in some crappy integrated graphics or some stubborn mobo.

they ARE sneaky. you have to press your nose to the screen practically to read the fine print on these prebuilt machines. Dell is particularly bad about hiding details like the memory type or processor details behind obscure number systems and nested pages.

[hart]

emachines: really? every time I even see the word "emachine" I just gloss right by it. wasn't it emachines who did the most brazen colored imac rip-off? ever since then I just considered them to be .... a cheap knock-off company. I'll have to see if I can unearth the recent Consumer Reports computer article to see what they have to say.

build my own: I think I'm going to have to put that off in the future. I'm burried under all the stuff I'm learning for school and that project would require more attention than I have at the moment. My 6 yr old son would sure think that was great tho...I think I'll have to plan that for about 2 yrs from now.

VPC: what are the ins and outs of how VPC functions? Would it provide an accurate picture of the functionality of a Windows environment? Besides pure functional issues I found in terms of design, the color difference between the bright lightness of my Macs' displays and the grim darkness of the Windows images made it difficult to gauge color choices. I don't know if this difference is fading overall...what causes this anyway. I used to feel almost suicidal looking into the ominous cave of my mother's Gateway CRT display. But if this difference is pretty much universal it seems a "real" PC would serve the purpose better.

laptop vs desktop: I was going on the assumption that I could get more bang for my buck with a desktop. Outside of my house the world is overflowing w/ Windows machines so I don't really need to carry one around. It's really here, in the house while I''m working that I need it. For that matter, there's a UPS Store right across the street with a line-up of computers for rent if I'm desperate (not a bad idea actually, I never thought of that)

Gaming: it's tempting. it would be nice not to have to say to my son "Sorry, sonny, "Star Wars: The Return for the 5th or 6th time of the Sith" doesn't work on our machines." On the other hand, I've been working so hard, I haven't even cracked open most of the games I have.

Sneer factor: just the phrase "integrated graphics" gives me the heeby jeebies. I must restrain myself as everytime I start looking at computers I immediately skip over the "low power workhourse" part and go right to the "performance machine" section.

AMD: what's the story behind this? quick primer please. why would it be superior?


another factor is I might be able to squeeze in an LCD/TV unit for the display as our TV's broken.

Thanks guys, all this is great.

[effgee]

First, you're going to have to streamline and prioritize your requirements. A cheap PC ("cheap" in PC terms = less than approx. $600) and playing recent games (e.g., Doom 3, HL2) at good frame rates don't go together. Same goes for most cheap Wintel Laptops - crappy graphics chips. What's most important to you?

• Portability
• Power (CPU/GPU)
• Price

I was facing a similar predicament a few weeks ago - my old Dell box died and I needed a PC for exactly the same reasons you do (web development, opening certain files - mostly Visio and MS Project - that clients send me frequently).

For me the requirements were:

• A decently fast system on which I can run all my apps (PS, Illustrator, Dreamweaver, HomeSite, Visio, MS Project) at good speeds without having to constantly switch back and forth between a Mac and a PC
• The entire system that won't look like shit at a decent price.
• A system that's portable enough so I can lug it to a client site if necessary (I do a fair number of usability tests for my clients)

In the end I bought a Shuttle barebone plus all the components (if you're in the US get them from newegg, they're the cheapest) - CPU (P4 3,2GHZ), HD (160GB SATA), RAM (1GB) and a graphics card (Radeon X700) for about € 1200,00 and put the whole thing together in about an hour. The motherboard, power supply, fans and cpu cooling are preinstalled so you won't have any hassles with those. If you want to spend less, simply get a different barebone (mine was the second most expensive) and/or save a couple of extra $$$ by choosing different components - very flexible.

So far, the box has handled everything I've thrown at it - from Photoshop to Prince of Persia and Doom 3. Plus, it looks a whole lot better than your average PC tower.

Also, I have been doing this for a living for quite some time - if you need to work fast and efficiently forget about Virtual PC, regardless of what anyone else tells you. Page loading and render times as well as Flash performance are beyond pitiful - even on a DP G5. For that particular purpose, VPC isn't worth shit.

[Randman]

LOSER!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Super Mario]

Super Mario is very tempted to buy himself a Dell Inspiron 9100 with 3.4ghz P4 and Radeon 9800. Super Mario knows it is heavy and will keep it on a desk.

Super Mario also loves Windows Media Center 2005 interface and would like a media player like that for OS X.

Super Mario would prefer Apple laptop with Radeon 9800 and the same games pcs have.

[Randman]

Super Mario sounds really stupid with all the inane third-person references.

[historylme]

Originally posted by PurpleGiant:
You already have a Mac? Get Virtual PC. Sure it's not super-snappy, but it's ideal for testing websites in Windows Browsers.

What he said.

[Kenneth]

Originally posted by misnomer:
Agreed. They used to come in at the bottom of the reliability surveys but for the last couple of years they've been on top, besting the likes of Apple, Dell and IBM. Here's a very recent survey done by PCWorld:
http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/artic...14,pg,3,00.asp

so e-Machine got saved by some bunch of cows?

[Splinter]

Depending on how much you are willing to spend there are some VERY excelent prebuilt systems from www.alienware.com www.voodoopc.com and www.falconnorthwest.com.

[Link]

dell's business site selling poweredge servers for $234 (with keyboard, mouse, celery 2.5ghz, 512mb ram, 80gig hard drive, cd drive) --

No monitor, but I'm sure you can get a sub-$100 one somewhere, or to match the ghettoness get one off the street by a dumpster.

Costs about the same as VPC but a whole lot more usable

*WINDOWS LICENSE NOT INCLUDED* (but you can get one from a store.. heck, just get XP home.. nobody needs pro for a piece of crap like that), maybe another $90 (and that $80 monitor) so a $400 commitment *sigh*

[rozwado1]

Originally posted by misnomer:
eMachines used to come in at the bottom of the reliability surveys but for the last couple of years they've been on top, besting the likes of Apple, Dell and IBM. Here's a very recent survey done by PCWorld:
http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/artic...14,pg,3,00.asp

Is it possible they got the highest marks bc eMachines owners don't know when they have a problem?

Most eMachines owners I know don't know how to eject the CD tray, much less know what a hard drive is - so how could they know if there was a problem?

[Scotttheking]

Originally posted by rozwado1:
Is it possible they got the highest marks bc eMachines owners don't know when they have a problem?

Most eMachines owners I know don't know how to eject the CD tray, much less know what a hard drive is - so how could they know if there was a problem?

Wow, what a brilliant statement! Most Mac users don't know how to use a two button mouse
/sarcasm

[Luca Rescigno]

Buying Virtual PC is about the stupidest suggestion I've seen here. Come on, people. He wants to actually work on this PC, not just play around and pretend like he's running Windows while he plays Snood to pass the time waiting for whatever application he's using to start up. Have any of you who suggested VPC even used the thing? It's absolutely horrible. If that's your only Windows experience than I can understand why you hate Windows.

You can always go the build route. Assuming you know what you're doing, you should be able to pick up the parts to a decently fast PC for around $400. That includes a good enough graphics card to run modern games if you turn down the settings a bit. I'm thinking a Radeon 9700 Pro would be the way to go in this regard - last time I checked, Crucial (yes, Crucial) was selling Radeon 9700 Pros in their refurbished section for $130, about the same price as a new 9600 Pro, which is slower.

If you don't want the hassle, I'd suggest either looking for something free, or actually buying a Dell. Bear with me... if you go to Dell's Small Business section, to their PowerEdge servers, they have one called the PowerEdge SC420 available for $224. Comes with 512 MB of DDR2, an 80 GB SATA drive, and it uses PCI Express for graphics. It only has a Celeron processor, but it's 2.53 GHz and it does have 256 kb of L2 cache, so it should be pretty fast. Anyway, for the price, it's pretty amazing. It must be on sale or something because I think it's usually around $400 or $500 for the base model. The only problem is that it doesn't actually come with Windows installed. It's about $90 to buy an OEM WinXP Home CD from NewEgg, and of course you can download Linux and put it on there.

I'd really suggest a build, though, if you're at all confident in your ability. It's not that hard, just requires some patience. It's a lot like building Legos actually (excuse me... like building LEGO bricks). Or if you can find a business or institution that is getting rid of a bunch of PCs, maybe you can score a free one. My brother recently got EIGHT old PCs from my dad's workplace... now he has a stack of P2/350s in his room.

[effgee]

Originally posted by Luca Rescigno:
Buying Virtual PC is about the stupidest suggestion I've seen here. ...

[Link]

Even my hacked up P166 tends to run most windows functions faster than my dual 800 can run windows in VPC.. Sure maybe not ALWAYS, but for a lot of apps, this is the case.

[PurpleGiant]

Originally posted by Luca Rescigno:
Buying Virtual PC is about the stupidest suggestion I've seen here. Come on, people. He wants to actually work on this PC, not just play around and pretend like he's running Windows while he plays Snood to pass the time waiting for whatever application he's using to start up. Have any of you who suggested VPC even used the thing?

Unless I have misread, the only reason he wants a PC is to test how websites look in Windows browsers. I use VPC daily for exactly this reason, and it works fine.

Sure, I wouldn't actually *do* the web dev in VPC, using Dreamweaver and Photoshop - but if he already has a Mac, he would simply be using Virtual PC to run Windows IE or Opera, and this is a task VPC is ideal for.

[paully dub]

For 250 bucks it seems a bit expensive for what it is, in my humble opinion. I know it can be a simple business expense, but it's kind of a principle thing with me.

[DeathMan]

VPC is ideal in my opinion. The workflow for testing web page compatibility on a computer inside a computer where you can cut and paste, move files around easily, etc. is way better than buying a whole 'nother computer, with a noisy fan, another mouse, anohter keyboard (or a KVM switch) all that crap, just to test a webpage? Especially if you have a laptop, which as a student, he very well might, or someday might.

VPC is perfect. I'd rather test in VPC than have a separate computer on my desk, regardless of OS. The other great things is that with VPC, you can have different version of your systems running on your mac all at the same time. So you can test your site on Win98 with its default MS browser, Win2000, XP, etc, with their respective defaults. You can't do that on a PC without VPC for that.

I don't think its a stupid suggestion. I've used VPC and it works fine. Its not for games though, if you want to play games, you're going to have to put up some cash, or just get an xbox.

[Luca Rescigno]

That's why I originally said that VPC is a bad idea... the original post made it seem like he wanted to do something other than JUST testing web pages. VPC probably isn't too bad if that's all you're doing. But you should get a physical PC if you want to do anything beyond that.

[Mr Kino]

if you buy a Dell computer drop me and Email and ill send you all the coupon codes i can get to you. i work at one of those crappie kiosk they have at the mall, and we have coupon codes that are not offered on websites like ecoupons.com

my suggestion though... get virtual PC if you have to use windows.

[hart]

Originally posted by Randman:
LOSER!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

yeah, well, you can't win 'em all.

into each life a little microsoft must fall.

hey, that rhymes. a poem for our times.

Portability isn't that important. I have a Powerbook for working on the road. The power Vs. $$ question is a little less clear. I like keeping my equipment around for a long time and upgrading it rather than buying new stuff all the time so i try to buy at the top end of the spectrum that I can afford. The gaming thing is still tempting but harder to justify. In the end, just testing a few web pages doesn't take much computing power but gaming is a whole nother story.

You guys have been providing some useful perspectives on a range of options. Thanks, as always for the info and feedback.

[eep]

Originally posted by PurpleGiant:
You already have a Mac? Get Virtual PC. Sure it's not super-snappy, but it's ideal for testing websites in Windows Browsers.

That's what I do. I have Windows 2000 and VPC 7 and it works well. Just share your web site root folder. Also I have IE 5, 5.5 and 6 on the VPC side so I have all my browsers covered. You can find out more about installing IE 5 and 5.5 on the same maching here:

h**p://www.skyzyx.com/downloads/?PHPSESSID=caad8fdc444dfb5ebd3d8a0a7916feb8

Also you could run virtue (virtual desktops) and make one desktop the VPC desktop and the other your Mac development desktop. Works great.

If you just have to have a real PC then you might check on ebay. Thats where I bought my Dell boat anchor.

[eep]

Originally posted by Luca Rescigno:
Buying Virtual PC is about the stupidest suggestion I've seen here. Come on, people. He wants to actually work on this PC, not just play around and pretend like he's running Windows while he plays Snood to pass the time waiting for whatever application he's using to start up. Have any of you who suggested VPC even used the thing? It's absolutely horrible. If that's your only Windows experience than I can understand why you hate Windows.

You can always go the build route. Assuming you know what you're doing, you should be able to pick up the parts to a decently fast PC for around $400. That includes a good enough graphics card to run modern games if you turn down the settings a bit. I'm thinking a Radeon 9700 Pro would be the way to go in this regard - last time I checked, Crucial (yes, Crucial) was selling Radeon 9700 Pros in their refurbished section for $130, about the same price as a new 9600 Pro, which is slower.

If you don't want the hassle, I'd suggest either looking for something free, or actually buying a Dell. Bear with me... if you go to Dell's Small Business section, to their PowerEdge servers, they have one called the PowerEdge SC420 available for $224. Comes with 512 MB of DDR2, an 80 GB SATA drive, and it uses PCI Express for graphics. It only has a Celeron processor, but it's 2.53 GHz and it does have 256 kb of L2 cache, so it should be pretty fast. Anyway, for the price, it's pretty amazing. It must be on sale or something because I think it's usually around $400 or $500 for the base model. The only problem is that it doesn't actually come with Windows installed. It's about $90 to buy an OEM WinXP Home CD from NewEgg, and of course you can download Linux and put it on there.

I'd really suggest a build, though, if you're at all confident in your ability. It's not that hard, just requires some patience. It's a lot like building Legos actually (excuse me... like building LEGO bricks). Or if you can find a business or institution that is getting rid of a bunch of PCs, maybe you can score a free one. My brother recently got EIGHT old PCs from my dad's workplace... now he has a stack of P2/350s in his room.

I use VPC for web testing all the time and it works fine. If you want to play games then VPC is not the way to go, but VPC runs Office 2003 ok. I have a Dell which I was going to use for testing but it was such a pain that it now only has Battlefield 1942 and RTCW:ET on it.

[eep]

Originally posted by paully dub:
For 250 bucks it seems a bit expensive for what it is, in my humble opinion. I know it can be a simple business expense, but it's kind of a principle thing with me.

Just checked out pricegrabber.com

http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_a...+pc+7&rd=1

Looks like you could get VPC a little cheaper.

[hart]

so, I have my brand new pristine Dell machine sitting under my desk waiting to plug it in. I crumbled.

I'm actually semi excited to be venturing into the dreaded microsoft no-mac's land. My 9 yr old daughter gave me a boo/hiss when she saw the Dell boxes but I told her you have to know your enemy to defeat it. She actually said, Oh, you mean like joining the Sith? Hopelessly nerdy family.

anyway.....I've read through this thread with interest: http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...readid=240640.

What should I do to start this box up with the best chance of limitting disaster. I've got Macafee SecurityCenter with VirusScan, Firewall, Spyware Removal as part of the package (Dell seems to change their packages every few hours. This happened to be included when I pressed "buy").

my network is behind a router and the Dell has a wireless card which I'm hoping will let it get onto my Airport Extreme network but I'd like to minimize the exposure that adding a windows machine might create. I think for web testing I'll most likely be using IE so I have to plan on all the mess that comes with that. It has Windows XP pro and I think service pack 2 is already installed as per the Dell website.

So, what should I do to maximize security and minimize irritation as I hook the thing up?

[Thilo Ettelt]

Originally posted by PurpleGiant:
You already have a Mac? Get Virtual PC. Sure it's not super-snappy, but it's ideal for testing websites in Windows Browsers.

I agree, why letting the devil into your house openly when you can put him in a cage.


- Thilo

[effgee]

Originally posted by hart:
so, I have my brand new pristine Dell machine sitting under my desk waiting to plug it in. ...

Dell ... ewww.

Seriously, though - glad you found a suitable box!

As mentioned in Brapper's "Spyware" thread, make sure you update your virus defs as soon as you get the box online. Here's what I do when "plugging in" any new(ly installed) WinBox ...

• Update virus defs
• Download Firefox and Thunderbird
• Use IE for nothing else but automatic Windows Updates (I strongly recommend using this - it's spooky but the easiest way to have XP's gazillions of security holes patched in a timely fashion) and to test your work. I actually have my firewall (Kerio) set so that IE can only connect to my LAN, the Windows update site and my company website (for testing) - anything else is blocked. And yes, I do have a hardware router/firewall as well - an expensive one, at that.
• Run Firefox and download (and install, of course) Ad-Aware, Spybot S&D and SpywareBlaster beofre doing any casual surfing. Make sure you update their respective definition libraries as well. Run Ad-Aware + Spybot S&D at least weekly (along with a full system check using your AV software)
• Download VLC so you can ditch (or avoid using) Windows Media Player
• If you're into instant messaging, download Gaim so you won't have to use Windows Messenger.
• Again, make sure your system software, AV and spyware tools are always updated - skip that and you will (sooner rather than later) regret it - I promise.
  

If you'd like to browse around for more software take a peek at Neowin's freeware alternatives list - it's pretty exhaustive. Other software sources I use are Versiontracker and Softpedia - I hate cNet/download.com.

That should keep you busy for a while ...

[meelk]

I agree with the previous post. Keep it simple. use firefox, use thunderbird and videolan. Stay behind your router. I personally do all these things and never *ever* have anything more than a cookie here or there I have to get rid of. A windows machine is NOT the headache people here would have you believe it to be as long as you protect yourself. Similarly, if you get popups dont click "yes" to everything, simply close them, or if entirely necessary, hit ctrl-alt-delete and close the browser.

I feel most windows users are heavily infected while trying to find porn and/or warez, stay away from those and use the precautions above and you should be fine.

[meelk]

Oh, and get "shoot the messenger" from here: http://www.grc.com/freepopular.htm
and DEFINITELY get and run windows service pack 2.

[driven]

Originally posted by His Dudeness:
I still haven't figured out all the negativity towards Dell. I've got a new Inspiron 8600 that cost $1400. I'm happy with it. I'd check out one of those.

My negativity towards Dell has nothing to do with the product. It's got to do with the customer service department. They are ill-informed, arrogant, and sometimes downright rude. (That's when they are not lying to you about a refund or some such nonsense.)

I've got a very bad taste in my mouth after dealing with them. Hopefully your experience will be better.

(Granted, I'm spoiled .... I've never had a bad experience with Apple.)

[driven]

Originally posted by rambo47:
If you absolutely, positively, have to get a pc, then get an IBM ThinkPad. Spend a little extra $$ and get a good one. I keep a ThinkPad around the house and it's really a nice piece of kit. I'm no fan of Windows, but XP is not the steaming dung heap that Win98 was, and they're definitley usable. I'm going to throw Linux on my X31 ThinkPad, but I'm checking out WinXP right now, mostly keeping an eye on those bastards in Redmond. The X31 is a pretty lighweight machine and not super-capable in the processor or graphics department, but the T42 models are pretty sweet.

I'd hold off now until we find out what's happening with the Lonovo buy-out of the IBM PC division.

It *was* worth it to pay extra for IBM to get their terrific support. BUT: It remains to be seen if Lonovo will provide the same level of service. (I doubt it ...)