Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

Spliff · Jan 26, 2005, 04:07 PM

I visit engadget.com regularly and I've noticed a lot of new mp3 players ("iPod killers") being released. Some of them are quite cool, but one thing that is common to all of them is that they don't support the AAC audio format. Not one of them (that I could find). They support everything else including Ogg and WMA.

I find this strange since AAC is a recognized standard format and iTunes is on millions of PCs (so I assume some PC users are encoding to AAC instead of WMA). It's only the purchased AACs from the iTunes music store that have DRM protection, so I can't see that as an issue.

What's going on here? Are the other MP3-player manufacturers trying to kill the AAC format to get back at Apple? To me, that wouldn't be wise. It would be better to support AAC in their players in order to lure some users away from purchasing an iPod while still allowing them to use iTunes and AAC encoding.

I just don't get it.

BTW, sorry if this is the wrong forum, but this topic could go in several MacNN forums.

The Godfather · Jan 26, 2005, 04:29 PM

It is because Apple has encrypted all iTMS songs (within the AAC open standard) and they are only playable in iTunes and iPods.

Real Networks once broke their encryption and did something I can't remember. Apple spanked them in the courthouse.

Other players will play iTMS music only when Apple allows them, which I can't see happening since 50% of the iPod's appeal is iTMS compatibility.

Krypton · Jan 26, 2005, 04:46 PM

AAC is a standard yes, but Apple's .m4a extension and the QuickTime wrapper around the raw data in the file is proprietary.

Angus_D · Jan 26, 2005, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by Krypton:
AAC is a standard yes, but Apple's .m4a extension and the QuickTime wrapper around the raw data in the file is proprietary.

Actually, the QuickTime file format is well documented. By Apple themselves.

I think the real reason other MP3 players don't support AAC is the same reason the iPod doesn't support OGG. Very few people use (non-protected) AAC, and those that do probably do it because they're using Apple stuff anyway.

BRussell · Jan 26, 2005, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by The Godfather:
It is because Apple has encrypted all iTMS songs (within the AAC open standard) and they are only playable in iTunes and iPods.

Real Networks once broke their encryption and did something I can't remember. Apple spanked them in the courthouse.

Other players will play iTMS music only when Apple allows them, which I can't see happening since 50% of the iPod's appeal is iTMS compatibility.

I think it's pretty clear that Spliff is talking about non-DRMed AAC.

I really don't know - I suppose not many people use it, like Angus said. Are there any license fees to include a decoder for AAC in your player?

Dalhectar · Jan 26, 2005, 05:32 PM

I think there are decoder fees. That's probably the reason. The builders are already paying a fee for Mp3 and WMA, why add another fee to eat up profits.

I've read some really neat stuff on HE-AAC, hopefully that will get adopted in the market soon.

PurpleGiant · Jan 26, 2005, 05:37 PM

It would be a smart move for the competition. I know a few people that have either 'upgraded' their iPod to another MP3 player, or who use iTunes (ripping in AAC by default) and then buy an MP3 Player and say 'oh, half my music doesn't work with it'.

cpt kangarooski · Jan 26, 2005, 05:57 PM

I don't recall anything going on in court. Do you have a link?

Big Mac · Jan 26, 2005, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by The Godfather:
It is because Apple has encrypted all iTMS songs (within the AAC open standard) and they are only playable in iTunes and iPods.

Real Networks once broke their encryption and did something I can't remember. Apple spanked them in the courthouse.

Other players will play iTMS music only when Apple allows them, which I can't see happening since 50% of the iPod's appeal is iTMS compatibility.

Apple didn't spank Real in court - there was no court case over Real's Harmony. Apple simply updated iPod firmware prevent it from playing Harmony files.

Superchicken · Jan 26, 2005, 06:47 PM

Simple, iTunes = Biggest AAC user, iTunes = Big add for iPod.

That said, I think it is stupid that all these players don't support AAC.

Angus_D · Jan 27, 2005, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by BRussell:
Are there any license fees to include a decoder for AAC in your player?

MPEG-4 AAC Licensing Fees [vialicensing.com]

misnomer · Jan 27, 2005, 10:57 AM

MPEG-4 AAC licensing fees are more expensive than WMA and OGG (well, vorbis is free of course

) and everyone is pretty much stuck paying the fee for MP3 since it's so ubiquitous. Each player's manufacturer needs to decide if it's worth the return in paying the fee for each of these formats. Most probably wouldn't bother including WMA support either if they didn't need a DRM'able format that is supported by online music stores. I'd imagine you'd see AAC support in a lot more players if Apple started licensing fairplay at a reasonable rate as iTMS-support would make paying the fee and implementing AAC playback very worthwhile.

The Godfather · Jan 27, 2005, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by misnomer:
MPEG-4 AAC licensing fees are more expensive than WMA and OGG (well, vorbis is free of course ) and everyone is pretty much stuck paying the fee for MP3 since it's so ubiquitous. Each player's manufacturer needs to decide if it's worth the return in paying the fee for each of these formats. Most probably wouldn't bother including WMA support either if they didn't need a DRM'able format that is supported by online music stores. I'd imagine you'd see AAC support in a lot more players if Apple started licensing fairplay at a reasonable rate as iTMS-support would make paying the fee and implementing AAC playback very worthwhile.

Are you saying that other manufacturers would have to pay the AAC fee to the MPEG, and then pay the Fairplay fee to Apple (when/if it becomes available)?

misnomer · Jan 27, 2005, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by The Godfather:
Are you saying that other manufacturers would have to pay the AAC fee to the MPEG, and then pay the Fairplay fee to Apple (when/if it becomes available)?

I'd guess that's how it would work. Or maybe you'd just pay a single fee to Apple for both AAC and fairplay and then Apple would pass on Dolby's cut (for the sake of convenience)?

Angus_D · Jan 27, 2005, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by misnomer:
I'd guess that's how it would work. Or maybe you'd just pay a single fee to Apple for both AAC and fairplay and then Apple would pass on Dolby's cut (for the sake of convenience)?

I doubt Apple has the authority to sublicense the patents.

CharlesS · Jan 27, 2005, 11:00 PM

Originally posted by Angus_D:
Actually, the QuickTime file format is well documented. By Apple themselves.

I think the real reason other MP3 players don't support AAC is the same reason the iPod doesn't support OGG. Very few people use (non-protected) AAC, and those that do probably do it because they're using Apple stuff anyway.

Exactly. If Apple would license the FairPlay stuff, then other MP3 players would have an incentive to support AAC instead of wasting money licensing AAC to play files that no one will put on the device anyway. And if this were to occur, maybe AAC would have a shot at becoming the new standard and replacement for MP3, instead of godawful WMA!