[Thorin]

Disclaimer: This is mostly me just blowing off steam because I've had a shitty morning.

I've recently applied for a job as a technician, and then heard about a job as a web designer coming up soon, and decided to apply for that too. I wasn't too sure about the web designer job, because it's more design focused than my previous web jobs have been, and I don't have a design background, but I'd spoken to someone who thought I might have a chance at it. I'd then geared myself up for it, and started to put together a portfolio of my w*rk. I'd even decided that if I got offered the Technician's post, I'd probably turn it down, as the money isn't as good, and I don't really want to be a technician.

Yesterday afternoon I got a call from someone on the web design team (which is where the web design job would be). I've done some w*rk for them when they've been short handed the last two summers, and they'd got an urgent job on, that they want me to w*rk on. I went over this morning, and had the w*rk explained to me, and thought doing the w*rk would be an excellent opportunity to help them remember who I am when it came to applying for the job.

Before I left, I mentioned the designer's job, and asked about where it was going to be advertised. I was told which publications it would be in, and then she said to me "It's a shame you have a computing qualification rather than a design qualification, otherwise you could have applied". Now this was a bit of a blow, but as I walked back across to my office it really got me thinking. I don't think I've done the right course at all.

I've been working in Web Design since I was 15, yet every time anyone asks me what I want to do, I say not web design, as I feel I've done that, and don't find it all that technically challenging. Maybe Web Development would be more my thing, or maybe I'd like to go into software development. If that's the case, then why am I so gutted about this web design job?

I've drifted through my Computer Science degree, putting in the absolute minimum effort (which is why this is my 5th year on the same 3 year course), I'm behind on my project again this year. Every module, or coursework I've attempted, I've passed effortlessly, yet I've made ridiculously hard w*rk of the course as a whole. The worst of it is, I don't feel I've learned anything that I couldn't have learned in my own time. In fact, with my attendance to lectures being pretty much zero, and the quality of study materials provided by the University being absolutely abysmal, I have pretty much learned everything I know in my own time.

So what the hell do I do now? I have a permanent job, but it's only 12 hours a week. My course is all over bar the shouting (two exams) just after the Easter holiday, and my girlfriend and I are intending to buy a house in July, so I need to get a full time job of some kind to bring in enough money for us to do that.

I've just been looking at Masters courses in design. There's one in design in new media, but they want a background in design to get onto it, and I don't know where I'd find the time or money to do that.

[Gamoe]

Thorin,

You're young, only 22. I don't know how you guys are in the UK, but here at that age nothing is set in stone. I did keep in touch with a friend in the UK for a number of years, and it seemed to me that there was much more intense competition and career pressure at a younger age than what people experience here, normally.

I say save your money-- you don't have to go full into getting a house right away. Can't you get a bigger flat for you and your girlfriend? Also, plan carefully-- don't tie yourself down with the responsibilities of being a parent just yet, if you can. Finish what you started. Then go for a design degree-- or start by learning on your own, and showing people what you can do.

Steve Wozniak didn't get his bachelor's degree in computer science and electrical engineering until he returned to the university later. Yet, he didn't have any trouble making a living off his skills! Of course, his case is unusual, but you get the point!

Anyway, hope you're day is getting better!

[Sherwin]

It's obvious that the company in question doesn't want to hire you, for one reason or another. Maybe they don't like you enough or maybe they're the classic "hire the student for cheap rates" types or maybe they're so rigid in their personnel requirements that they can't see the wood for the trees - you wouldn't believe how stupid a lot of companies can be on this matter. Any way up, don't worry about that.

Continue working your current 12 hour job, look for another while you're at it and additionally start your own web design service. You'll need a bit of web space and a domain name, that's it (don't advertise - hoof it around to prospective clients with a lappy). If you do it right and you're reasonably good, you'll be fully self-employed by the time you want to buy that house.

(now, I'm not saying that everyone can start their own web design company and succeed - but the market's still open if you target the right type of customers and it's a possibility. I know at least three people who've all done the same thing over the last year and they're all earning good money now).

HTH

[Thorin]

23, but point taken.

I think part of the problem is that most of the people in my year at school, finished their degrees in 2002, whereas I'm still drifting along in mine, and suddenley this morning I've decided it probably wouldn't be my first choice if I were looking at courses again.

House or not, being a parent is not happening any time soon!

My girlfriend and I live in a terrace house at the moment, but it's rented, and we'd like to own our own property.

And after venting heavily in all directions about this I am feeling better, thanks

[effgee]

We've talked about this topic in a similar thread the other day and the same thing is true here as well ...

If an agency doesn't want to hire you for a design position because you don't have the "necessary" credentials despite the fact that you can demonstrate your talent and have an appropriate portfolio you can be %1000 certain that it is a shithole - regardless of their size and/or reputation.

Yes, you should know the rules before you apply/bend/break them but there are plenty of folks who were able to pick up the "rules" (color theory, typography, layout and what not) as they progressed in their careers. I have also met/interviewed a crapload of "designers" who had college degrees and couldn't tell a good design from a shitty one if it had D-cup boobs and gave them a lapdance.

That being said (and I'm not refering to you personally since I have no clue who you are or what your work looks like) - I'm also thoroughly sick of every other schmuck calling himself a "web/interactive designer" and as soon as you begin pressing for details, it becomes quite apparent that they don't have the first clue about disciplines like usability, information architecture, branding, etc., etc. Time for those "grease blobs" to be scooped off the soup.

In the end, you should pursue the career you're most passionate about. As long as you're willing to pour your heart into it, everything else will fall into place.

[sugar_coated]

Listen to your heart and never look back! Live everyday learning the most, its never too late to learn something new.

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by effgee:


That being said (and I'm not refering to you personally since I have no clue who you are or what your work looks like) - I'm also thoroughly sick of every other schmuck calling himself a "web/interactive designer" and as soon as you begin pressing for details, it becomes quite apparent that they don't have the first clue about disciplines like usability, information architecture, branding, etc., etc. Time for those "grease blobs" to be scooped off the soup.

Again Thorin, not referring to you at all, but I wholeheartedly agree with the above. It takes more than the ability to code to be a designer. Much more. That, I suspect, is why the company insist on a design degree. I, to be honest, would do the same.

Having said that, surely you're young enough to change course in your career.

[Thorin]

I don't take it as a criticism at all.

And I tend to agree! I wasn't really being pissy that I didn't meet their criterior for the job. I had originally decided not to apply for it, as I didn't think I had the required design background. Then I spoke to someone on the web team who said that although the title was "web design", there wasn't a huge amount design involved in the job (which is a reasonably large part of the reason the guy who was doing the job left), which is what got me geared up to it again.

I'm not annoyed that their standards are high. I'm frustrated that I don't meet them

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by effgee:

Yes, you should know the rules before you apply/bend/break them but there are plenty of folks who were able to pick up the "rules" (color theory, typography, layout and what not) as they progressed in their careers. I have also met/interviewed a crapload of "designers" who had college degrees and couldn't tell a good design from a shitty one if it had D-cup boobs and gave them a lapdance.

In the end, you should pursue the career you're most passionate about. As long as you're willing to pour your heart into it, everything else will fall into place.

Paragraph 1:
where do people pick up rules? while getting a degree in web/graphic design in college. you don't just pick up the experience from thin air. yes, there are some untalented designers out there but i am willing to say 95% of all graphic designers from a average to good art school is better than somebody who picked up the field from books, working small freelance jobs. you think it's easy learning about usability and etc? there is no usability tree that when you eat it's fruit it makes you a web genious. the best and easiest way IMO is to learn it from a professional. (that often is some school or class)

Paragraph 2:
Do you really enjoy and love design in general? do you see typography and think... WOW! and then go back and read what it actually says? if so, then you should assemble what you have and get accepted in a masters program. my current boss did this in his early 30s and is now a manager in his 40s.

[AssassyN]

Whatever you do, get outta school as fast as possible. Masters are a waste of life generally speaking, escp. since you & your woman should get your life started.

[mitchell_pgh]

For some agencies, it's more about your background then how you preform. Don't get down. My advice, keep enhancing your portfolio, take every little job very seriously... may it be college or whatever.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by AssassyN:
Whatever you do, get outta school as fast as possible. Masters are a waste of life generally speaking, escp. since you & your woman should get your life started.

Not necessarily. Some higher end jobs require a Masters... especially those really nice government, university, etc. gigs where you get full health benefits, 401K, etc.

A design masters should be a place to retool your skills and make contacts. If two people show equal skills and I've got to make the call, I'll pick the one with the masters.

[mitchell_pgh]

Side Note: For every freelancer out there, please don't create a company with a "cleaver" name. It's really hard to pitch "The Design God", "Mark's Insane Designs" or anything revolving around an illegal activity to my boss for a project.

[ism]

You only think you've done the wrong degree, I KNOW I've done the wrong degree. I can't stand mechanical engineering (Well theoretically I like the combination of maths, physics and design, but no one told me the industry was so backward and just complete sh*t) and that's where I'm stuck especially as I'm supporting my girlfriend through her Radiography degree and have a kid (and two dogs!). At least the money is reasonable-ish (I'd be really rich if it wasn't for the p*ss poor pay when I first graduated; hence debt, and my 'oh so expensive tastes' girlfriend)

Rant overwith: I'm 28 and have no clue whatsoever what I want to do with my life. None. So don't worry too much. Bumble along for a few years and enjoy life as much as possible (work to live, etc). In the meantime all/any types of jobs offer good experience even if it's not in the industry you end up working in.

Perhaps when my girlfriend is raking it in as a Radiographer I can be a househusband.

[effgee]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
Paragraph 1:
where do people pick up rules? while getting a degree in web/graphic design in college(1). you don't just pick up the experience from thin air. yes, there are some untalented designers out there but i am willing to say 95% of all graphic designers from a average to good art school is better than somebody who picked up the field from books, working small freelance jobs(2). you think it's easy learning about usability and etc? there is no usability tree that when you eat it's fruit it makes you a web genious(3). the best and easiest way IMO is to learn it from a professional. (that often is some school or class)(4)

Paragraph 2:
Do you really enjoy and love design in general? do you see typography and think... WOW! and then go back and read what it actually says? if so, then you should assemble what you have and get accepted in a masters program. my current boss did this in his early 30s and is now a manager in his 40s.(5)

Firstly, I certainly wasn't stating that anyone can be a great designer. My sole point was that talent and passion are a hell of a lot more important than any theoretical training you can receive at any college/university - I should have made myself a bit clearer on that one.

1. In college, you pick up the wording of the rules - not the practical experience applying them - especially not when a complex project comes your way. The application of said rules, as in: demonstrating that you actually understood them, is best learned when working as part of a team on a real project. Application, observation and lots of practice. Rinse and repeat.
2. For the specific example you state, that is of course true. I was refering to Thorin's specific situation - a "side-entry", so to speak. Assuming demonstrable and equal talent (!) on both sides, I'll hire a "side-stepper" from a related field over a noob from college any time of the day. Have done so in the past and will do so in the future. Btw, a lot of the folks doing the same job I do will usually behave in a similar manner. Nothing beats talent combined with experience.
3. LOL - usability is 30% experience, 20% common sense, 15% tool-knowledge (methodology), 15% psychology and 20% "usability-specific" knowledge. Let's not get ahead of ourselves, here.
4. Never. as in: never, BS, load of poopies, etc. Yes, the best way is to learn from a professional - but not in school/class. That is one of the ways to build a foundation for your future career. Usable knowledge (= the ability to apply the rules you learned, the stuff you build upon your foundation) comes from project work, nothing else.
5. One of my former bosses had no college degree, was the creative "headmaster" (= CCO) of a 400-employee agency and made $250K/yr. - what's your point?

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
Not necessarily. Some higher end jobs require a Masters... especially those really nice government, university, etc. gigs where you get full health benefits, 401K, etc.

Irrelevant to Thorin, unless he wants to emigrate sometime.

Originally posted by ism:
You only think you've done the wrong degree, I KNOW I've done the wrong degree. I can't stand mechanical engineering (Well theoretically I like the combination of maths, physics and design, but no one told me the industry was so backward and just complete sh*t)

Hey, you're in Britain. Most industries are backward and complete sh*t!

(this fact does, however, leave people who're not backward to clean up in certain areas - hence the ability to get your own web design service running reasonably easily, especially if you target small industrial customers.)

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by effgee:
Firstly, I certainly wasn't stating that anyone can be a great designer. My sole point was that talent and passion are a hell of a lot more important than any theoretical training you can receive at any college/university - I should have made myself a bit clearer on that one.

1. In college, you pick up the wording of the rules - not the practical experience applying them - especially not when a complex project comes your way. The application of said rules, as in: demonstrating that you actually understood them, is best learned when working as part of a team on a real project. Application, observation and lots of practice. Rinse and repeat.
2. For the specific example you state, that is of course true. I was refering to Thorin's specific situation - a "side-entry", so to speak. Assuming demonstrable and equal talent (!) on both sides, I'll hire a "side-stepper" from a related field over a noob from college any time of the day. Have done so in the past and will do so in the future. Btw, a lot of the folks doing the same job I do will usually behave in a similar manner. Nothing beats talent combined with experience.
3. LOL - usability is 30% experience, 20% common sense, 15% tool-knowledge (methodology), 15% psychology and 20% "usability-specific" knowledge. Let's not get ahead of ourselves, here.
4. Never. as in: never, BS, load of poopies, etc. Yes, the best way is to learn from a professional - but not in school/class. That is one of the ways to build a foundation for your future career. Usable knowledge (= the ability to apply the rules you learned, the stuff you build upon your foundation) comes from project work, nothing else.
5. One of my former bosses had no college degree, was the creative "headmaster" (= CCO) of a 400-employee agency and made $250K/yr. - what's your point?

i didn't really respond to argue with you. i was trying to help the original poster with his decision.


it's a special thing when a company hires a person who "just fits" in the right situation.

[effgee]

I wasn't trying to argue, either - apologies if it came across that way.



I just want to make sure that I get my "degree =! good designer" and "degree =! good job/company" point across because nothing that I have ever experienced "out there" supports this notion. More than in almost any other line of work it is talent, passion and the appropriate experience that counts.

All under the assumption that you know the right "people", of course - we pixelpushers are a terribly incestuous bunch at times. Ack.

[roberto blanco]

Originally posted by effgee:
Yes, the best way is to learn from a professional - but not in school/class. That is one of the ways to build a foundation for your future career. Usable knowledge (= the ability to apply the rules you learned, the stuff you build upon your foundation) comes from project work, nothing else.

having tried to get a foothold in this kind of business for the last 5 years i'd have to 100% agree with this statement. i've gone through 2 1-year schools, and looking back and what i learned there, i'd say most of it was a total and complete waste of time (because the quality of education was such complete and total shyte).

if i'd had only 6 months working with top notch professionals every day for about 8 hours, i probably would have learned more than in those 2 years combined.

the thing which made it a total dead-end for me though, is that i cannot teach myself anything (like going to a website and doing the tutorials, - i'd just as much try to learn something through "osmosis" )

i guess it's just like in a martial arts school - find yourself a master of the trade and spend time with him/her t'ill you're a master yourself. then go and kick some ass.

[macroy]

"I think I may have done the wrong degree"

Never true. Unless YOU feel that way based on YOUR evaluation. I have a BA in Economics, and now work as a Security Engineer doing DITSCAP/C&A, Pent testing and IR plans. My wife has a Chem E degree from Hopkins and is now teaching middle school. I don't think either one of us did the "wrong" degree.

There are so many things you learn (outside of the specific concentration) while attaining that degree. And more important (as others have stated) - its the expereince you've gained while doing the job that ultimately matters more.

[i5m]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
Hey, you're in Britain. Most industries are backward and complete sh*t!

(this fact does, however, leave people who're not backward to clean up in certain areas - hence the ability to get your own web design service running reasonably easily, especially if you target small industrial customers.) [/B]

Hmmm, for some reason my normal account isn't allowed to reply. Anyway. Sherwin, this is what I'm hoping for: that one day I'll have a spark of a useful idea and be able to do something with it (ultimately I'm only going to be happy working on my own). I doubt it'll be web design for me though. Just need to figure out what I'm good at....

[Superchicken]

Meanwhile I got sick of web design and am going on to be a pastor

Though I can tell you our church will have a freaking sweet web page!

[roberto blanco]

something just came to my mind, - if you have a BA in a somewhat "related" area of study, and you wanted to get a "masters degree" in...well what do you call a "web-design/development" curriculum anyway? and what would be the absolute best school to go to (with the best professors)?

[effgee]

Originally posted by roberto blanco:
...well what do you call a "web-design/development" curriculum anyway? ...

I wish it was called "interaction design" and taught that way ... *sigh*. I just received an application for a design position yesterday - aside from the fact that I don't have any openings right now - you should have seen that portfolio. These people have no shame, no pride, nothin' - unbelievable.

[hart]

I would have to say don't plunge back into school right away. Let the dust clear, get some work, see how it goes. It may be different in the UK, more rigid, I don't know, but here, 23 is just beginning to get your feet out the door. If you're not sure where you're going don't sign up for yet another degree yet.

I got an undergraduate degree in theatre, fooled around for three years, got ANOTHER undergraduate degree in fashion design and then worked for 10 years as a designer then realized fashion is largely a business for idiots (I truly could not in my heart of hearts judge people based on their accessories, call me tacky), spent 10 years on parenting and now I'm doing non-credit certificates in web design and development. My point being that life kind of flows along and it looks different from each vantage point and there are many changes along the way.

Funny, I wish I HAD gone to graduate school back at 23 but that's because I wasn't prepared for anything grownup. Couldn't even get myself an apartment or anything. You seem like you're able to have a life and see what happens next. Graduate school is either for people who have no clue (like I was) or people who have a definite path that requires the degree.

I wish I had it as together as you seem to back in the old days when I was your age, you young whippersnapper.