[itistoday]

From Slashdot:

A Times Online article discusses a new study comparing 7 million real world datapoints with several computer models of global warming. Each model had a possible cause associated with it." From the article: "It found that natural variation in the Earth’s climate, or changes in solar activity or volcanic eruptions, which have been suggested as alternative explanations for rising temperatures, could not explain the data collected in the real world.

In the future, when global warming becomes so evident that even the dumbest of you will see it, it will finally be accepted as fact. We'll have people protesting, conservative hypocrites who said it wasn't true becoming activists, and it will all be too late... Oh well. Wish my young self could do something more about it than just post on forums to attempt to raise awareness. Stupidity is a real killer, but you can compensate for it by buying a hybrid.

Edit: the problem with global warming is that it doesn't happen overnight. It takes a long time to happen; so long that most people don't believe it's happening. However, there exists what's called a point-of-no-return, and this point happens to exist in a time when global warming is not evident to the individual, but you can't wait until it's 90 degrees in London during the winter to decide it's time to take action.

Edit: excerpt from the article:

"The debate about whether there is a global warming signal now is over, at least for rational people," said Tim Barnett, of the Scripps Institution of Oceanography in La Jolla, California. "The models got it right. If a politician stands up and says the uncertainty is too great to believe these models, that is no longer tenable."

[Burke]

Well then, maybe we should all get off our computers because the electricity needed to power them is mostly still produced from the burning of fossil fuels, which of course is a major culprit in global warming, right?

[itistoday]

Originally posted by Burke:
Well then, maybe we should all get off our computers because the electricity needed to power them is mostly still produced from the burning of fossil fuels, which of course is a major culprit in global warming, right?

Um no. A better idea would be to petition your senators and representatives to approve nuclear power in your area.

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by itistoday:
In the future, when global warming becomes so evident that even the dumbest of you will see it, it will finally be accepted to be as fact. We'll have people protesting, conservative hypocrites who said it wasn't true becoming activists, and it will all be too late... Oh well. Wish my young self could do something more about it than just post on forums to attempt to raise awareness. Stupidity is a real killer, but you can compensate for it by buying a hybrid.

I hope you're a vegetarian.

[Burke]

Originally posted by itistoday:
Um no. A better idea would be to petition your senators and representatives to approve nuclear power.

Encourage the expansion of nuclear power?

Well, at least you didn't mention "free energy."

[itistoday]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
I hope you're a vegetarian.

Why's that?

[itistoday]

Originally posted by Burke:
Encourage the expansion of nuclear power?

Well, at least you didn't mention "free energy."

If by "free energy" you mean solar energy, geo-thermal energy, and hydro-energy, then those are good alternatives as well, but unfortunately they don't provide enough power, and aren't available everywhere, so nuclear energy is a much better alternative.

[typoon]

Originally posted by itistoday:
From Slashdot:

A Times Online article discusses a new study comparing 7 million real world datapoints with several computer models of global warming. Each model had a possible cause associated with it." From the article: "It found that natural variation in the Earth’s climate, or changes in solar activity or volcanic eruptions, which have been suggested as alternative explanations for rising temperatures, could not explain the data collected in the real world.

In the future, when global warming becomes so evident that even the dumbest of you will see it, it will finally be accepted to be as fact. We'll have people protesting, conservative hypocrites who said it wasn't true becoming activists, and it will all be too late... Oh well. Wish my young self could do something more about it than just post on forums to attempt to raise awareness. Stupidity is a real killer, but you can compensate for it by buying a hybrid.

Edit: the problem with global warming is, is that it doesn't happen overnight. It takes a long time to happen; so long that most people don't believe it's happening. But there exists what's called a point-of-no-return, and this point happens to exist in a time when global warming is not evident. You can't wait until it's 90 degrees in London during the winter to decide it's time to take action.

"Conservative hypicrites?" Even in the scientific community there is much debate over whether this is acutally happening due to HUmans or other factors or is a natural occurance. Buying a hybrid is going to help this? Um but don't hybrids still HAVE gasoline engines? it might reduce it but it would still be part of the problem.

I'm sorry but LOTS Of things cause ozone depleteing gases. Methane from Cow manure and mulch, growing of rice, Volcanos, Burning fossil fuels might be a small part of it but one volcano puts out MORE ozone depleting material than Mankind can ever do. What conservative hypocrite might you be talking about?

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by itistoday:
You can't wait until it's 90 degrees in London during the winter to decide it's time to take action.

Actually, unless I'm misunderstanding something, isn't the problem that the icecaps melting could cause the Gulf Stream to shut down, causing it to be bloody cold in London?

[itistoday]

Originally posted by typoon:
"Conservative hypicrites?" Even in the scientific community there is much debate over whether this is acutally happening due to HUmans or other factors or is a natural occurance.

No, you're wrong. There's a huge agreement among the entire scientific community that global warming is caused by man. And, why don't you read [edit] the article in the original post[/edit], it's more current, and also shows your ignorance.

Buying a hybrid is going to help this? Um but don't hybrids still HAVE gasoline engines? it might reduce it but it would still be part of the problem.

Yes, buying a hybrid will help this. Unless you have a brain the size of a walnut you should realize this is true. It will reduce CO2 and therefore will help slow the problem until a better alternative is created.

I'm sorry but LOTS Of things cause ozone depleteing gases. Methane from Cow manure and mulch, growing of rice, Volcanos, Burning fossil fuels might be a small part of it but one volcano puts out MORE ozone depleting material than Mankind can ever do. What conservative hypocrite might you be talking about?

Hmm... what the hell are you saying? "...LOTS Of things cause ozone depleting gases"? WTF does that mean? We're not talking about the ozone layer, that's completely different, we're talking about CO2, a gas that traps heat. Obviously you have no idea what you're talking about.

[itistoday]

Originally posted by CharlesS:
Actually, unless I'm misunderstanding something, isn't the problem that the icecaps melting could cause the Gulf Stream to shut down, causing it to be bloody cold in London?

Well, there are many problems. You're right though, first the ice caps will melt (plenty of evidense showing this happening now, just google it), this will cause several things. It will get colder, and the ocean levels will rise. However, the icecaps actually serve to reflect back a lot of the suns rays into space, and therefore cool this planet like that. If they melt, they will not longer be able to do that, and instead there will be dark rocks that will absorb heat. After a while, things will most likely start heating up rapidly. That's why global warming is so difficult to believe: on the one hand, it'll get colder for a period of time in some places, but on the other, it will get really hot later, and when you reach that point, turning back is virtually impossible, even if everyone stops using cars.

[TheBadgerHunter]

So? I try to reduce my emissions where possible. I'm not going to all all nuts about it though. I'm certainly not going to badger other people to do it just because I feel I should.

I do think the gov of Canada's ad campaign to try and get people to reduce their emissions by one ton is a good measure.

[itistoday]

Originally posted by TheBadgerHunter:
So? I try to reduce my emissions where possible. I'm not going to all all nuts about it though. I'm certainly not going to badger other people to do it just because I feel I should.

I do think the gov of Canada's ad campaign to try and get people to reduce their emissions by one ton is a good measure.

And I will badger them because I'm young, and have a long life ahead of me, and I'd prefer if these lazy idiots don't **** it up for me and my children.

[TheBadgerHunter]

Oh, and if it is the problem you claim I blame the environmentalists for bitching until people stopped giving a ****.

[MacNStein]

Originally posted by itistoday:
No, you're wrong. There's a huge agreement among the entire scientific community that global warming is caused by man. And, why don't you read this article, it's more current, and also shows your ignorance.

Yes, buying a hybrid will help this. Unless you have a brain the size of a walnut you should realize this is true. It will reduce CO2 and therefore will help slow the problem until a better alternative is created.

Hmm... what the hell are you talking? "...LOTS Of things cause ozone depleting gases"? WTF does that mean? We're not talking about the ozone layer, that's completely different, we're talking about CO2, a gas that traps heat. Obviously you have no idea what you're talking about.

and people wonder why we can't have civil discussions on MacNN? Do you honestly think you can bring someone over to your way of thinking by being abusive?

[itistoday]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
and people wonder why we can't have civil discussions on MacNN? Do you honestly think you can bring someone over to your way of thinking by being abusive?

You're right about that, my job should be to persuade—not to insult. I guess I got a bit carried away.

[typoon]

Originally posted by itistoday:
No, you're wrong. There's a huge agreement among the entire scientific community that global warming is caused by man. And, why don't you read this article, it's more current, and also shows your ignorance.

Yes, buying a hybrid will help this. Unless you have a brain the size of a walnut you should realize this is true. It will reduce CO2 and therefore will help slow the problem until a better alternative is created.

Hmm... what the hell are you talking? "...LOTS Of things cause ozone depleting gases"? WTF does that mean? We're not talking about the ozone layer, that's completely different, we're talking about CO2, a gas that traps heat. Obviously you have no idea what you're talking about.

It also said "Admittedly, authors evaluating impacts, developing methods, or studying paleoclimatic change might believe that current climate change is natural. However, none of these papers argued that point." So as you see they don't know if it is truly caused by mankind or not. As shown by this statement "Many details about climate interactions are not well understood, and there are ample grounds for continued research to provide a better basis for understanding climate dynamics. The question of what to do about climate change is also still open." Global warming IS also caused by Ozone depleting gases as well as CO2. And yes I know that CO2 gas traps heat. They are all interconnected. Your thread title mentioned global warming. Which is also caused by the depletion of the Ozone layer.

Thanks for letting the article show my ignorance. So until statements like that are NOT included then I MIGHT believe it.

So what about planes? Should we not fly? Driving hybrid cars is all well and good. But driving hybrid cars wouldn't cause as much impact as not flying. Maybe we should stop flying, Maybe we shouldn't send anyone into space anymore, maybe we should have ships with sails sailing the seas again since Diesel fuel also emmits CO2. Why don't we all go back to the era of sailing ships and

[Agent69]

Personally, I would like to see nuclear power become more popular but there is the problem of what to do with the nuclear waste. I'd vote dumping it into the South Pole but I bet some penguin lover would complain about that.

[itistoday]

Originally posted by typoon:
It also said "Admittedly, authors evaluating impacts, developing methods, or studying paleoclimatic change might believe that current climate change is natural. However, none of these papers argued that point." So as you see they don't know if it is truly caused by mankind or not. As shown by this statement "Many details about climate interactions are not well understood, and there are ample grounds for continued research to provide a better basis for understanding climate dynamics. The question of what to do about climate change is also still open." Global warming IS also caused by Ozone depleting gases as well as CO2. And yes I know that CO2 gas traps heat. They are all interconnected. Your thread title mentioned global warming. Which is also caused by the depletion of the Ozone layer.

Thanks for letting the article show my ignorance. So until statements like that are NOT included then I MIGHT believe it.

Oh snap... I'm sorry, there's a misunderstanding here. When I said:

And, why don't you read this article, it's more current, and also shows your ignorance.

I meant why don't you read the article I posted in the original post, as in, this article, not the other one. The one I posted there is several months older than this recent time article, and it has nothing anywhere that concedes "global warming might not be caused by humans". In fact, here's a nice quote:

"All the potential culprits have been ruled out except one.

"This is perhaps the most compelling evidence yet that global warming is happening right now, and it shows that we can successfully simulate its past and its likely future evolution. The statistical significance of these results is far too strong to be merely dismissed and should wipe out much of the uncertainty about the reality of global warming."

-------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by typoon:
So what about planes? Should we not fly? Driving hybrid cars is all well and good. But driving hybrid cars wouldn't cause as much impact as not flying. Maybe we should stop flying, Maybe we shouldn't send anyone into space anymore, maybe we should have ships with sails sailing the seas again since Diesel fuel also emmits CO2. Why don't we all go back to the era of sailing ships and

No, I don't think this at all. If everyone drove hybrids, the amount of CO2 from cars would be cut in half, and that would slow down global warming, allowing scientists to come up with new types of energy that would power your cars, planes, and shuttles.

Again, sorry for the misunderstanding, and sorry for the insults, but please read the original Time article I posted in the first post.

[typoon]

Originally posted by itistoday:
Oh snap... I'm sorry, there's a misunderstanding here. When I said:

I meant why don't you read the article I posted in the original post, as in, this article, not the other one. The one I posted there is several months older than this recent time article, and it has nothing anywhere that concedes "global warming might not be caused by humans". In fact, here's a nice quote:




No, I don't think this at all. If everyone drove hybrids, the amount of CO2 from cars would be cut in half, and that would slow down global warming, allowing scientists to come up with new types of energy that would power your cars, planes, and shuttles.

Again, sorry for the misunderstanding, and sorry for the insults, but please read the original Time article I posted in the first post.

I just read it. I don't feel it is anyone's right to tell me what car I HAVE TO drive. Also I don't know if you read this article http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in674120.shtml

It's quite an interesting article about how in California they are thinking of taxing by the mile because of people driving Hybrids. Since the tax money made from cars filling up at the gas station are used or supposed to be anyway for fixing up the roads that we drive on whether it's a hybrid or a gas powered car.

[itistoday]

Originally posted by typoon:
I just read it. I don't feel it is anyone's right to tell me what car I HAVE TO drive. Also I don't know if you read this article http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in674120.shtml

It's quite an interesting article about how in California they are thinking of taxing by the mile because of people driving Hybrids. Since the tax money made from cars filling up at the gas station are used or supposed to be anyway for fixing up the roads that we drive on whether it's a hybrid or a gas powered car.

Well, the article states that only some states (it only mentioned California and Oregon) are considering passing laws to tax by the mile. First we'll have to see if such laws would pass their congresses, and if they do, it's really not that big of a difference, because you'll probably end up paying the same price. Either you can drive a regular car and pay $500 or more per month on gas and at the same time contribute to the destruction of our lovely planet, or you can drive a hybrid, save money on gas but pay a tax, and at the same time have a clean conscience knowing that you're helping the planet and buying humanity time.

So, I personally doubt they'll pass these laws (as they are somewhat an invasion of privacy since they require the installation of a monitor in your car), and if they do, you'll end up paying the same amount anyways (and if they don't, you save hundreds on gas!)

[typoon]

Originally posted by itistoday:
Well, the article states that only some states (it only mentioned California and Oregon) are considering passing laws to tax by the mile. First we'll have to see if such laws would pass their congresses, and if they do, it's really not that big of a difference, because you'll probably end up paying the same price. Either you can drive a regular car and pay $500 or more per month on gas and at the same time contribute to the destruction of our lovely planet, or you can drive a hybrid, save money on gas but pay a tax, and at the same time have a clean conscience knowing that you're helping the planet and buying humanity time.

So, I personally doubt they'll pass these laws (as they are somewhat an invasion of privacy since they require the installation of a monitor in your car), and if they do, you'll end up paying the same amount anyways (and if they don't, you save hundreds on gas!)

I'm not against Hybrids don't misunderstand me. When all the manufacturers start making hybrid type vehicles that get the same amount of power that a regular gas powered car does then I might get one. I know that Several car manufacturers are starting to do that now. I know Honda just came out with a 250 HP hybrid Accord. It might be interesting to drive and see how it runs. Why not work on converting Diesel engine cars to run off something like Vegetable oil (which is possible with a mod)? I think that would be much cleaner than ANY car that runs off fossil fuels. The conversion for Diesel cars is only a few thousand dollars.

If a car can't get out of the way of an 18 wheeler I don't car how environmentally friendly it is.

[itistoday]

Originally posted by typoon:
I'm not against Hybrids don't misunderstand me. When all the manufacturers start making hybrid type vehicles that get the same amount of power that a regular gas powered car does then I might get one. I know that Several car manufacturers are starting to do that now. I know Honda just came out with a 250 HP hybrid Accord. It might be interesting to drive and see how it runs. Why not work on converting Diesel engine cars to run off something like Vegetable oil (which is possible with a mod)? I think that would be much cleaner than ANY car that runs off fossil fuels. The conversion for Diesel cars is only a few thousand dollars.

If a car can't get out of the way of an 18 wheeler I don't car how environmentally friendly it is.

Good point, I too hope more car manufacterers start dishing out better hybrids. (That honda sounds very appetizing, I've got no $$ though as I'm a student).

[turtle777]

Oops, I just farted...

-t

[Oisín]

Originally posted by turtle777:
Oops, I just farted...

Thank you for posting that. I've been wanting to post it ever since the first time I saw this thread (it was actually what I expected it to be about), but you just saved me the dirty work.

[typoon]

My mistake the honda accord hybrid has 225 horsepower not 250.

http://automobiles.honda.com/models/...rDetected=True
Some specs on the car.

[Mastrap]

Global warming is a fact. That it is man made is another fact. There is no argument about that in the scientific community, the only argument comes from politicians and industry.

Typoon, you ask why we don't go back to sailing ships. Why not indeed? The technology exist to support cargo ships with sails. It reduces fuel consumption by over 50%. And we're not talking fabric sails here, but upright aerofoils. Rather than producing lift these produce forward momentum. Why aren't we using them? Because ****ing the environment is still perceived to be cheaper than thinking long term.

Air travel is a major culprit for pollution in the upper atmosphere. We might indeed have to shelf the idea of being able to jet across the world at the drop of a hat. Thankfully electronic communication is making a lot of business travelling superfluous already.

Cars, don't buy an SUV or anything else that guzzles gas. The idea that every car needs 200hp plus is preposterous.

Try and buy locally. I live in Ontario, I buy a lot of locally produced wine. I don't yet buy enough other products that don't involve a long transport chain, but I am trying. I wish more stuff was still produced in Europe and North America, just for that reason. (And it would make for a healthier economy). If this means avoiding Walmart and similar, that's a fair price to pay in my opinion. Unfortunately as long as most consumer goods are made in China, this will always remain a drop into the ocean.

But the important message is that humanity is made up by individuals. If enough people change their habits, good things can happen.

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by itistoday:
Why's that?

'Coz if you're not a vegetarian and you're banging on about hybrid vehicles "to save the World", you're a fool at best, a hypocrite at worst.

Most of the major carbon sinks on the planet are being chopped down so your deathburger product can grow. If everyone on the planet went veggie right now and planted trees on the 70% of grazing land that wouldn't be needed for crop growth, the global warming thing as it relates to man causing it would go away within 10 years.

But it's easy, cool and hip to bang on about hybrids instead, ain't it? Even if the energy cost of making that hybrid in the first place is far greater than the gas savings you'd make over simply keeping your existing car.

[turtle777]

Originally posted by Mastrap:
Global warming is a fart. That it is man made is another fart. There is no fart about that in the scientific community, the only fart comes from politicians and industry.

Typoon, you ask why we don't go back to farting. Why not indeed? The technology exist to support farts. It reduces fuel consumption by over 50%. And we're not talking fabric farts here, but upright fartofoils. Rather than producing lift these farts produce forward momentum. Why aren't we using them? Because farting the environment is still perceived to be cheaper than thinking long term.

Fartinated

-t

[itistoday]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
'Coz if you're not a vegetarian and you're banging on about hybrid vehicles "to save the World", you're a fool at best, a hypocrite at worst.

Most of the major carbon sinks on the planet are being chopped down so your deathburger product can grow. If everyone on the planet went veggie right now and planted trees on the 70% of grazing land that wouldn't be needed for crop growth, the global warming thing as it relates to man causing it would go away within 10 years.

Yes, that would be awesome, but that's not going to happen. Improving technology, creating cars that don't require gas at all, coming up with new forms of energy, buying a hybrid in the meantime, that's realisitic. Another thing that needs to be done is to get rid of paper. So many trees are destroyed for this purpose, and if we all just used hand helds to read information that would help a lot. At school teachers will hand out thousands of hand-outs in every class, most of which will be thrown into the trash a few minutes later. It would be much better if all assignments, memo's, etc were delivered through electronic devices.

In short, there's lots of ways to slow down global warming, but some are more practically achievable than others, and going veggie is not one of them.

Even if the energy cost of making that hybrid in the first place is far greater than the gas savings you'd make over simply keeping your existing car.

What does that mean? Energy cost of making that hybrid is greater...?

[RAILhead]

This thread gives me the urge to go jump in my Nissan Titan and drive around the block until I run out of gas.



Maury (who loves his Titan vewy vewy much)

[E's Lil Theorem]

Originally posted by turtle777:
Fartinated

-t

Originally posted by RAILhead:
This thread gives me the urge to go jump in my Nissan Titan and drive around the block until I run out of gas.



Maury (who loves his Titan vewy vewy much)

I suppose someone had to make that joke too

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by itistoday:
In short, there's lots of ways to slow down global warming, but some are more practically achievable than others, and going veggie is not one of them.

Arhh. Hypocrite it is then. When you start looking at all the aspects of your life which may affect this issue and make your own personal change to help towards it in every way you can instead of simply whining on to people about jumping on the latest leftie/geeky bandwagon, I'll take notice of you.

Originally posted by itistoday:
What does that mean? Energy cost of making that hybrid is greater...?

It means that my current vehicles are already made. The energy cost of getting rid of them and replacing them with hybrids (which need to be built) would far outstrip any ecological saving at the gas pumps.

And you'd need to show me a hybrid which can tow dead cows off fields/yachts out of water before I'd even think about it.

[itistoday]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
This thread gives me the urge to go jump in my Nissan Titan and drive around the block until I run out of gas.



Maury (who loves his Titan vewy vewy much)

Would you buy a hybrid Titan if there was one?

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by itistoday:
Would you buy a hybrid Titan if there was one?

If it had the EXACT same amount of power, then yes. That's a silly question.

Maury

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by RAILhead:

Sweet! (except the colour - I have silverophobia)

[itistoday]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
Arhh. Hypocrite it is then. When you start looking at all the aspects of your life which may affect this issue and make your own personal change to help towards it in every way you can instead of simply whining on to people about jumping on the latest leftie/geeky bandwagon, I'll take notice of you.

Oh I hope that one day I may be worthy of your attention.

It means that my current vehicles are already made. The energy cost of getting rid of them and replacing them with hybrids (which need to be built) would far outstrip any ecological saving at the gas pumps.

I still don't know why you're using the words "energy cost", it seems a term you made up, but whatever. The hybrids are already being built, just as other cars are. When you buy a hybrid, you don't wait for several months to have your car handmade for you and shipped to you. It's no different than simply buying a new car. I'm not saying go out and trash that new Dodge Ram you just bought, I'm saying buy a hybrid when you make your next car purchase.

And you'd need to show me a hybrid which can tow dead cows off fields/yachts out of water before I'd even think about it.

Currently, I don't think I can, but I'm sure that by the time you need a new car they'll have one, and I hope you take advantage of it.
Edit: I do acknowledge, of course, that the hybrids that exist today don't fit everyone's needs, I'd just like for people to be aware of that option, and keep an eye open for when they do start selling them.

[typoon]

Originally posted by Mastrap:
Global warming is a fact. That it is man made is another fact. There is no argument about that in the scientific community, the only argument comes from politicians and industry.

We could debate if it is a "fact" and that "fact" that is caused by man made til we are blue in the face. There are 2 schools of thought on this. So I'm not going there becuase like I said we can argue about this and post fact from either side til we are blue in the face and our fingers fall off from typing.

Typoon, you ask why we don't go back to sailing ships. Why not indeed? The technology exist to support cargo ships with sails. It reduces fuel consumption by over 50%. And we're not talking fabric sails here, but upright aerofoils. Rather than producing lift these produce forward momentum. Why aren't we using them? Because ****ing the environment is still perceived to be cheaper than thinking long term.

That's all well and good but you still need someplace to manufacture these. The plant that makes these probably WILL be putting out CO2 and other bad things into the atmosphere. You still need the energy to run the plants. those things can cause harm too.

Air travel is a major culprit for pollution in the upper atmosphere. We might indeed have to shelf the idea of being able to jet across the world at the drop of a hat. Thankfully electronic communication is making a lot of business travelling superfluous already.

I'll give you that point, but how do you suggest we export and import goods? How do you go about travelling to another part of the world? Your 1-2 week vacation will now have to be more like a month at least.

Cars, don't buy an SUV or anything else that guzzles gas. The idea that every car needs 200hp plus is preposterous.

Another good point about SUV's But unfortunately that isn't going to happen. People like big powerful cars. They have for a while now. You would need to change the thinking of everyone in the world for that to happen. You are right no one needs a car that has 200hp but as I said before Everyone wants something more powerful and faster these days. You would need to change minds about this. Probably NOT going to happen anytime soon. The other thing is that people DON'T like being told what they can and can't drive.

Try and buy locally. I live in Ontario, I buy a lot of locally produced wine. I don't yet buy enough other products that don't involve a long transport chain, but I am trying. I wish more stuff was still produced in Europe and North America, just for that reason. (And it would make for a healthier economy). If this means avoiding Walmart and similar, that's a fair price to pay in my opinion. Unfortunately as long as most consumer goods are made in China, this will always remain a drop into the ocean.

That's a good idea. But what about those things that are NOT able to be produced in the country in which you live? You will still need to get them from somewhere else. A Healthy economy also depends on trade with others. You can't just isolate yourself and NOT trade with other countries.

But the important message is that humanity is made up by individuals. If enough people change their habits, good things can happen.

That would be a lot of people. In today's society where you don't get something for nothing you would need to make some sort of incentive to make people change. If you don't then it will be one tough chore changing people's minds.

[itistoday]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
If it had the EXACT same amount of power, then yes. That's a silly question.

Maury

You'd be surprised at the amount of people who'd say 'no' that question. What if it had the same power, but cost a little more (say $1000 more)?

Edit: I do acknowledge, of course, that the hybrids that exist today don't fit everyone's needs, I'd just like for people to be aware of that option, and keep an eye open for when they do start selling them.

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
Sweet! (except the colour - I have silverophobia)

I did too until I saw all the various colors. The green (Canteen) was pretty sharp, but it kind of gets tiring. But after looking at all the colors, the radiant silver was the color that really made the truck look sharp, if you know what I mean. I like the smoke color, too, but silver won out.

Radiant Silver:


Smoke:


Canteen:



Maury

[typoon]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
I did too until I saw all the various colors. The green (Canteen) was pretty sharp, but it kind of gets tiring. But after looking at all the colors, the radiant silver was the color that really made the truck look sharp, if you know what I mean. I like the smoke color, too, but silver won out.

Radiant Silver:


Smoke:


Canteen:



Maury

The "Smoke" color is pretty hot too if you ask me.

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by itistoday:
You'd be surprised at the amount of people who'd say 'no' that question. What if it had the same power, but cost a little more (say $1000 more)?

I pay cash for everything, so I would probably NOT have to pay that $1000 (car dealers pass out when you want to write them a check for several thousands of dollars, thus, they readily come down to your terms).

That said, since price isn't that much of an issue for me, as long as I was paying what I wanted to pay for what I want to buy, I'll buy it.

I'm no eco-terrorist (though many think I am) -- I just get what I like and what I want. If there was a legitimate, more eco-friendly model that cost more, I'd probably go with it -- if it had the same power, etc.

Maury

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
Smoke:

I'd go with that.
We can only get its little brother here (a Navara - pretty much the same as the 2004 Frontier) and I've been toying with getting one for carting junk around. Luckily they do them in black.

[MacNStein]

Seems that Sarra really wants a new hybrid (she's an eco-nut) so we're shopping for one this weekend. I figure we'll check out the Hondas (I'm a Honda fan) and Toyotas, she has her eye on the Civic.

Maybe her hybrid Civic will cancel out my modded M3...

[Skip Breakfast]

Why are these posts not considered political?

[TheBadgerHunter]

Originally posted by Skip Breakfast:
Why are these posts not considered political?

Because it isn't in any way political.

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
Arhh. Hypocrite it is then. When you start looking at all the aspects of your life which may affect this issue and make your own personal change to help towards it in every way you can instead of simply whining on to people about jumping on the latest leftie/geeky bandwagon, I'll take notice of you.

You're absolutely right about the impact of the beef industry.

[Oisín]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
Sweet! (except the colour - I have silverophobia)

Shouldn't that be either argentophobia or argyrophobia?

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by Oisín:
Shouldn't that be either argentophobia or argyrophobia?

I have no irrational fear of either Asia Argento or Plymouth Argyle fans.

[d4nth3m4n]