[Lateralus]

Those of you Trekkies here on the forum have probably been following the latest news in the Trek world over the past month, with the cancellation of Enterprise and The Powers That Be saying that Star Trek will be on hiatus on all fronts for atleast a few years.

Well... apparently not. According to Variety, an 11th Star Trek film is being planned;

"...STAR TREK 11 will indeed be happening, with Rick Berman, Jordan Kerner and Kerry McCluggage developing, and Eric Genderson signed as writer. According to Berman, the new film will feature entirely new characters - folks that haven't been seen in the TV world before."

Now, I see a new cast and crew as being something that could give Star Trek the new face it has been needing for the past several years. But to me, combining a fresh Trek with the same Powers That Be responsible for the franchise's demise as of late, namely Berman, is not something that makes a whole lot of sense.

I am really left wondering exactly why it is that, through blunder after blunder, Paramount is continuing to allow Berman to remain at the helm.

Thoughts?

[Deimos]

Oh dear.

[beb]

And Apple should port everything to Intel... um yeah... right...

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

I dunno about this. I mean the reason the movies are sometimes great is because you know these characters because they have 150 hours of background behind them.

These characters in the new movie wont have much background.

[AB^2=BCxAC]

Ahem: Let the cash cow die, already.

Today, SF is stifled enough already by ridiculous retellings, homages, and "insider" idiocy to the SF Fathers (Leiber, Asimov, Ellison, Bradbury, Heinlein, Adams, Star Trek's original run, etc.) that every time someone drags those names into something they're doing, a kitten dies and its soul goes to hell.

And hell is already f*cking full of kittens.

[paully dub]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
I dunno about this. I mean the reason the movies are sometimes great is because you know these characters because they have 150 hours of background behind them.

These characters in the new movie wont have much background.

exactly. The first couple films really played upon that bigtime. I especially liked the one where Bones had a touch of Spock in him.

Now I'll be like "Who the f&ck are you and what are you doing in my Star Trek movie?"

I suppose you could devote a whole film to romulans or klingons ro something, that way you wouldn't really need anyone recognisable. A space war type film.

[Millennium]

Star Trek just hasn't been the same since TNG. DS9 was a bad Babylon 5 fanfic. Voyager was a bad TNG/Wagon Train crossover fanfic. Enterprise took until Season Four to stop being a bad TOS fanfic, and by then it was too late to save it.

I hope JMS gets his turn at Star Trek. He's got enough talent -unlike a certain executive producer who shall remain nameless- that he might be able to actually give the franchise a much-needed shot in the arm, so that the franchise might actually be able to end on a good note.

[RAILhead]

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by Millennium:
DS9 was a bad Babylon 5 fanfic.

DS9 was the best thing ever for star trek.

I though B5 was totally ghetto plus they hired every damn Star trek character they could get their hands on. Christ even Checov was on it.

[Deimos]

B5 had an interesting plot, albeit brutally stolen from other great works of fiction, but the actual acting and everyday storylines just sucked.

[olePigeon]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
DS9 was the best thing ever for star trek.

I though B5 was totally ghetto plus they hired every damn Star trek character they could get their hands on. Christ even Checov was on it.

Babylon 5 was da ****! Who else could've gotten TRON to be captain?!

[theJoKell]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
DS9 was the best thing ever for star trek.

Damn straight.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
Babylon 5 was da ****! Who else could've gotten TRON to be captain?!

Ok the story might have been interesting, never stuck around long enough to watch.

It was just too much like DS9 with that portal and politics. I watched the premiere and a year later when it starting airing regularly they switched the characters. They also replaced the captain again later on.

The thing I also hated is that the sets were all so quite. I mean the station didn't have a rumble and you could hear extras shuffling around on the set as they didn't do post work on it.

The 3D graphics in the first few seasons were also incredible unconvincing. It thought I was watching the last straighter.

[Superchicken]

SWG you need to realize B5 was around BEFORE DS9. Remember the last few seasons of DS9 where they got into the Dominion War? That was a freaking rip off of the Shadow war only without as much black plot and all manner of nifty writing.
JMS was an amazing writer, the characters were quite awesome. You need to watch em before you criticize.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
I though B5 was totally ghetto plus they hired every damn Star trek character they could get their hands on. Christ even Checov was on it.

...if by "Chekhov" you mean "a freaky psionic bastard who mind-rapes and tortures people on a daily basis and likes it".

Seriously; what made B5 "ghetto"? I liked DS9 too, until I saw that from which it had been ripped. DS9 doesn't even compare. It was better than Voyager, I suppose, but that's about all that can be said for it.

[Eug Wanker]

Original Star Trek >> all others.

The new Battlestar Galactica is pretty good too.

DS9 was OK. Voyager was better. And I like Enterprise too.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Seriously; what made B5 "ghetto"? I liked DS9 too, until I saw that from which it had been ripped. DS9 doesn't even compare. It was better than Voyager, I suppose, but that's about all that can be said for it.

I told you, the poor post production and 3d effects.

[ghporter]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
I told you, the poor post production and 3d effects.

B5 broke the ground that EVERYONE ELSE tilled for their effects. Look at an original Star Trek episode today, and you'll see cheezy effects because that was what they could do on an ongoing production basis almost 40 years ago. When B5 hit the scene, it was common knowledge that you just couldn't make useful computer generated effects on a TV production schedule. They proved that bit wrong, and basically invented the "render farm" concept of CGI production. Poor post production and effects? Standing here, in 2005, maybe. Not then.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by ghporter:
B5 broke the ground that EVERYONE ELSE tilled for their effects. Look at an original Star Trek episode today, and you'll see cheezy effects because that was what they could do on an ongoing production basis almost 40 years ago. When B5 hit the scene, it was common knowledge that you just couldn't make useful computer generated effects on a TV production schedule. They proved that bit wrong, and basically invented the "render farm" concept of CGI production. Poor post production and effects? Standing here, in 2005, maybe. Not then.

Post being the dead silent sets with feet shuffling about on plywood sets. That should all be cleaned up.

[Deimos]

Originally posted by ghporter:
They proved that bit wrong, and basically invented the "render farm" concept of CGI production.

Not really. Foundation Imaging (the 3D guys) had no renderfarm when B5 was started, and it was pretty much that way up until season 2/3. The switch from Amiga/Alpha (for rendering) to Windows, was when they begn to take advantage of distributed rendering.

ILM and others were using renderfarms long before B5 hit the air. What FI did do, was break the barrier of large post houses doing expensive effects for tv.

[ghporter]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
Post being the dead silent sets with feet shuffling about on plywood sets. That should all be cleaned up.

I had thought that the "lack of fake atmospheric sound" was intentional. It sounded like it was filmed inside a space station, not a soundstage.

[Sherwin]

Let's face it guys - DS9, B5, Voyager, Enterprise: it's all better than watching Paris and Nicole do their thing.

[Gamoe]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Star Trek just hasn't been the same since TNG. DS9 was a bad Babylon 5 fanfic. Voyager was a bad TNG/Wagon Train crossover fanfic. Enterprise took until Season Four to stop being a bad TOS fanfic, and by then it was too late to save it.

I think you've got the idea. Whatever anyone else says, Star Trek really stopped being Star Trek after TNG. It was the last series Roddenberry was actively involved in. Ever since, Berman has, perhaps in some witless attempt to steer Star Trek in another direction, or try new things or so, perverted Star Trek. He's forgotten the spirit of Star Trek.

Star Trek is not about war, and creating a series that undermines the established Star Trek history (a ship called Enterprise before April/Pike/Kirk?-- how unoriginal can you get?! The first encounter with the Klingons, on EARTH?! Cloaking Technology on Vulcan ships, etc?) does nothing to preserve what Star Trek really is. I thought Voyager had some promise, and I thought it wasn't half bad. But, it did not of course, rise to the level that TNG set.

Star Trek is not "dead", and never will be, because it has been recorded for all time. But, most importantly, because what really is Star Trek will always be in the human heart. Curiosity, nobility, exploration, good will, humanity, preserving the good things from the past while going forward into the future-- These, to me, are the things that Star Trek represents. Paramount, however, is simply milking the cash cow.

[nforcer]

Originally posted by Deimos:
B5 had an interesting plot, albeit brutally stolen from other great works of fiction, but the actual acting and everyday storylines just sucked.

I agree on that last part. It seemed alright at the time, but I recently tried to watch it and I am amazed at how poor the acting was.

[Scotttheking]

Quite a few of the moderators hold B5 in high regard. It's interesting.
*glances over at shelf full of B5 books, and DVD shelf with it's box sets of all B5 episodes, and smiles*

[Lateralus]

Originally posted by Scotttheking:
Quite a few of the moderators hold B5 in high regard. It's interesting.
*glances over at shelf full of B5 books, and DVD shelf with it's box sets of all B5 episodes, and smiles*

*Whistles*



Oh... Is that my Babylon 5 DVD collection, displayed artistically in the midst of my entertainment center?

[Aquataris]

All they need to do to bring some dignity and respect back into the franchise is a cuddly new mascot, they could call it Bar Bar Jinks or something. And they could explore Khans early days as a slave who competes in a violent sport to free his mother from his master. Now that is something that everybody will pay to see.

[demograph68]

Originally posted by Lateralus:
Thoughts?

I don't give a **** who's in it, I won't watch it. Period.

[Teronzhul]

please no more paramount... please...

On the subject of b5, it remains my favorite sci-fi show to date. I've always been amazed, though, at how one episode could contain the most amazing writing delivered during a flat out awesome performance from some spectacular actors, and then the next episode would be the polar opposite with horrible horrible writing and downright terrible acting.

JMS never had an average ep in the series in my opinion. B5 always danced on one end of the spectrum. Plus all the captains sucked. If you pretend Boxlightner can act, the whole series seems so much better.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
Let's face it guys - DS9, B5, Voyager, Enterprise: it's all better than watching Paris and Nicole do their thing.

Well, yes, but how much is that really saying?

[ghporter]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
Let's face it guys - DS9, B5, Voyager, Enterprise: it's all better than watching Paris and Nicole do their thing.

The last Star Trek original series episode, "Turnabout Intruder" (the one where one of Kirk's old flames uses some alien machine to swap herself into Kirk's body-well regarded as the worst episode of the whole series), is better than watching Paris and Nicole do ANYTHING.

The real problem is that after a while, the script writers seemed to run into a wall; they couldn't come up with socially relevant material that they could set in the Star Trek universe. At least Enterprise had fewer limitations; they hadn't developed all of the constraints on behavior and technology that are established parts of the Star Trek cannon yet, so they have/had some flexibility.

Contrast that to how DC Comics has "reinvented" a lot of their staple lines. Superman has been reinvented several times. One DC writer said he wondered how interesting you could make a conflict involving someone who could "destroy whole galaxies just by thinking hard." That seems to be similar to the problem with Star Trek in the last few years, and Enterprise seemed to be the solution. Too bad it debuted right after 9/11... People got too involved in reality, and many didn't want to bother escaping. Sigh.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by ghporter:
The last Star Trek original series episode, "Turnabout Intruder" (the one where one of Kirk's old flames uses some alien machine to swap herself into Kirk's body-well regarded as the worst episode of the whole series), is better than watching Paris and Nicole do ANYTHING.

Turnabout Intruder is the worst? What about Spock's Brain?

[Eug Wanker]

Whatever anyone else says, Star Trek really stopped being Star Trek after TNG

Star Trek really stopped being Star Trek after the original Star Trek.

As for TNG, the first couple of seasons REALLY sucked @ss. It was absolutely terrible, and worse than the first couple of seasons of Enterprise too IMO. It definitely got better later though, and I do think that The Inner Light is one of Trek's best episodes of all time.

The coolest is Mirror, Mirror though, and I really like Journey To Babel too.

Originally posted by Millennium:
Turnabout Intruder is the worst? What about Spock's Brain?

The Omega Glory is by far the worst Star Trek episode of all time. It was written by Gene Roddenberry, too.

[ghporter]

"Spock's Brain" and "Omega Glory" both had (though it was kind of hard to pick out back then) some sort of social commentary. "Spock's Brain" dealt with technocracy, and "Omega Glory" was about remembering the foundation of democracy. I never did get what "Turnabout Intruder" was about on that level. And you can find all sorts of fan sites that will bicker about what was what and why, but they still can't come up with anything better than "well, it was about Women's Lib and stuff." Bull as far as I'm concerned; Roddenbery seemed to feel that gender equality was already a fact, it just needed to be acknowledged.

And I'd watch all of 'em back to back to miss Paris and Nicole.

[Sven G]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
Original Star Trek >> all others.

Other times, with more social and ethical engagement...

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by ghporter:
"Spock's Brain" and "Omega Glory" both had (though it was kind of hard to pick out back then) some sort of social commentary. "Spock's Brain" dealt with technocracy, and "Omega Glory" was about remembering the foundation of democracy.

Social commentary or not, they were simply terrible.

I didn't like Turnabout Intruder much either, but I at least tolerated it. The Omega Glory is, like I said, the worst Trek episode of all time. The whole story is lame, and the ending just made me want to puke.

[Deimos]

I must be one of the few that enjoyed Voyager. Yeah, I got laughed at by everone else, but it had that element of the unkown in it which appealed to me.

DS9 was just a socio-political mess towards the end.

If anything, bring back Voyager, have them lost in a parallel universe.

[milhous]

I don't see how the Star Trek franchise can continue. But then again a friend of mine who's an even bigger Trek fan than I am counters and asks me something to the effect of, "Well how's the James Bond franchise able to pull it off?" Part of me responds that trying to compare Trek and Bond is like Apples and Oranges. Then again, how are they able to continue making Bond films? New villains usually do the trick and Trek's been doing the same thing, but it seems that Trek requires much more than a new villain.

There needs to be new ideas. I'd rather see a fan submission contest for the next movie or even the next series than to have another mediocre move from Berman & Co. They gotta bring in an outsider.

One thing's for certain. The cost of buying a season of any Trek series is obscene. A $100+ per season? Obscene and ridiculous!

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by Deimos:
I must be one of the few that enjoyed Voyager. Yeah, I got laughed at by everone else, but it had that element of the unkown in it which appealed to me.

DS9 was just a socio-political mess towards the end.

If anything, bring back Voyager, have them lost in a parallel universe.

I actually liked Voyager also when it first aired but it doesn't have high reply value. I thought the first couple of seasons were really good but they kept the Kayzon around for a year to long.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Notice they don't show a picture of the fans:

http://www.wired.com/news/digiwood/0...w=wn_tophead_4

[ghporter]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
Notice they don't show a picture of the fans:

http://www.wired.com/news/digiwood/0...w=wn_tophead_4

I think I know what you're implying. You can probably find a similar-looking bunch of Mac-heads too.

Having been involved in fandom several (many?) years ago, you're right in implying that a lot of fans look like they need to move out of Mom's basement and start doing something with their lives. But when you start talking about activist fans, that's an entirely different situation.

Most activist fans really don't care what you or I think of their looks; they want their favorite stories to remain available, and their favorite series to remain in production. They are a force to reckon with-ask Paramount about why they decided to start making Star Trek movies. It was the fans, and the pressure fans put on both Paramount and Gulf+Western (who owned Paramount when they started making these films).

Though the "Save Star Trek" movement (initiated by people like Bjo Trimble, who's mentioned in the Wired story) didn't get started early enough to save the original series, it got NBC's, Polaroid's (they owned a stake in NBC), and Paramount's attention in a big way. It was, in fact, one of the first consumer revolts, and entertainment marketing people will keep this in mind. The thought of boycots-both of networks and advertisers on those networks-strikes a cold fear in those marketing weasels.

Anyway, what did Steve Jobs look like when he was building computers in his garage? Yep. Thought so.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by ghporter:
I think I know what you're implying. You can probably find a similar-looking bunch of Mac-heads too.

Having been involved in fandom several (many?) years ago, you're right in implying that a lot of fans look like they need to move out of Mom's basement and start doing something with their lives. But when you start talking about activist fans, that's an entirely different situation.

Dude, I have been to Star Trek conventions since 93. They are not friggin pretty. I stopped going because I was totally shocked at these awkward people. They all look horrible, overweight, nerdy etc wearing Star Trek outfits that are 3 sizes to small and the belly hangs out. Fine, I can handle the looks, but these people are totally socially retarded, they don't seem to know how to interact with people and ask incredibly stupid questions to the cast in front of thousands of people. What they made fun of on The Simpsons is even toned down from the truth. I stuck out like a sore thumb at the conventions.

Yes you see the same thing at any fanatical group from Lord of the Rings to Star Wars. They are the extremes.

I have found that the convention crowd and the viewers are separate groups though. I know plenty of huge fans that would never be caught dead at a convention.

To be honest though I have never had a problem with Mac fans. I have been to PC conventions and they are horrid, bunch of zitty teenagers drooling over a video card to render 3d boobs. The mac group is always almost artistic such as graphic designers or photographers and they actually have a cool style to them. You see the same thing in Apple stores compared to PC shops.

As much as I love star trek (seen every episode of every show) I wouldn't be caught dead in a protest or give money to raise 32 million dollars. I would rather give that money to a charity (which I do every year)

[Lateralus]

According to Variety, Erik Jendresen (Band of Brothers) has been hired to write the screenplay for Star Trek XI, the next installment in the most successful franchise in entertainment history. Rick Berman has been working on development of the film with Jordan Kerner (Inspector Gadget) and Kerry McCluggage (Miami Vice television series) even though reports out of the studio had the project being shelved in January. Rumored to center around the Romulan war, which took place prior to the original series, the film currently doesn't even have a tentative release date on Paramount's schedule.

Dammit! It is going to be a prequel!

[TailsToo]

Originally posted by Lateralus:
Dammit! It is going to be a prequel!

Yeah, that worked well for Enterprise.

[Rev-O]

Originally posted by Teronzhul:
please no more paramount... please...

On the subject of b5, it remains my favorite sci-fi show to date. I've always been amazed, though, at how one episode could contain the most amazing writing delivered during a flat out awesome performance from some spectacular actors, and then the next episode would be the polar opposite with horrible horrible writing and downright terrible acting.

JMS never had an average ep in the series in my opinion. B5 always danced on one end of the spectrum. Plus all the captains sucked. If you pretend Boxlightner can act, the whole series seems so much better.

Agreed. I've always loved every other episode of B5. It had a great ongoing storyline, and some cheese filler episodes. But all in all, it was great. Then Kosh turned into an angel or something like that and I almost puked. But I kept watching.

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
Star Trek really stopped being Star Trek after the original Star Trek.

As for TNG, the first couple of seasons REALLY sucked @ss. It was absolutely terrible, and worse than the first couple of seasons of Enterprise too IMO. It definitely got better later though, and I do think that The Inner Light is one of Trek's best episodes of all time.

The coolest is Mirror, Mirror though, and I really like Journey To Babel too.

Mirror, Mirror was really good, but my fav has always been City on the Edge of Forever, written by Harlan Ellison.

[ranga]

Originally posted by Lateralus:
Dammit! It is going to be a prequel!

What is worse is that it will be set during the Romulan which were primarily fought with atomic weapons and ships w/o visual communication capabilities. I guess they will just ignore Balance of Terror (one of the 1st season's better eps.) and just make up a bunch of non-sense.

I'll skip this one, if not for content then b/c of the odd number curse.

--ranga