[OldManMac]

What would you do?

http://www.clickondetroit.com/family...37/detail.html

Mom Says Youngster Has Male Brain

UPDATED: 12:34 pm EST March 4, 2005

METHUEN, Mass. -- A fourth-grader who was attending a Massachusetts elementary school as a girl before February vacation has returned to school as a boy.

The parents of the 9-year-old child said the youngster was born with the body of a girl, but the brain of a boy.

They have asked that he be referred to and treated as a boy by teachers and other students, and school officials are accommodating the request. The parents have even changed the child's name.

The child's mother told The Eagle-Tribune that the family made the decision after consulting with medical professionals. She said the child is still biologically a girl.

The mother has requested that the family not be identified to protect the child.

School Superintendent C. Phillip Littlefield said there is nothing harmful about the child being in the school.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Oh well, lying to themselves won't help. If it is just a temp thing he/she will get sick of it and go back.

[OldManMac]

What if it isn't a temporary thing?

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by KarlG:
What would you do?

never have kids

[hart]

1-what the heck is a male brain anyway?

2-if she wants to change back people have to respect that. The main hazard is that this is some notion of the parents'.

3-I sure hope they consulted with some real experts and not crackpots.

4-historically, cases in which medical professionals "assigned" a gender to a child with some gender abnormalities (ie hermaphroditism) and plastered that gender identity on the child arbitrarily have turned out badly psychologically in the end.

5-in the end I have to say a)I want more info and b)having a 9 year old daughter I have to say that I don't think kids at this age have enough of a self concept to make this kind of decision or to have one made by their parents.

6-in conclusion it sounds like a bogus idea to me. I am all for gender role fluidity but the concept of a "male brain" sounds like complete garbage to me. Not having any more info my gut reaction is that it sounds like the adults involved are not comfortable with a girl who isn't sweet and nice so they go off on this "male brain" stuff. But once again, I would want more info before I leaped to conclusions.

Okay, I'm stopping before I go off

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by KarlG:
What if it isn't a temporary thing?

Than she can get a sex change when she is older or just be a butch dike.

dressing her as a girl will not help.

[Turias]

This is crap. At 9? Before estrogen and testosterone and puberty? There's practically no difference between boys and girls that age, and the differences that do exist are much more societal than biological.

[Big Mac]

Originally posted by Turias:
This is crap. At 9? Before estrogen and testosterone and puberty? There's practically no difference between boys and girls that age, and the differences that do exist are much more societal than biological.

I would say that that is a strange claim to make.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by Turias:
This is crap. At 9? Before estrogen and testosterone and puberty? There's practically no difference between boys and girls that age, and the differences that do exist are much more societal than biological.

Well at 9 my sister was a total tomboy. When she hit 16 she got all girly girl.

Like I said let this girl figure it out for herself.

[wdlove]

A very sad situation. The whole family needs counseling.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by wdlove:
A very sad situation. The whole family needs counseling.

Why is it sad? If anything I feel sorry for this girl who think she is trapped in the wrong body.

[tooki]

Transsexuals typically report that they felt more like one sex or the other from very young ages -- we're talking 5 years old.

I've always "felt" like a boy, and luckily that matches my physical body. I can't imagine how maddening and depressing it must be to feel like one sex trapped in a physical body of the other sex, with society expecting you to act like the physical sex.

I applaud the parents for recognizing this and letting their child live as he feels comfortable. They can deal with the physical problem later on.

tooki

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by tooki:
I applaud the parents for recognizing this and letting their child live as he feels comfortable. They can deal with the physical problem later on.

tooki

Exactly, those are some accepting and cool parents.

[demograph68]

So she's a tomboy?

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by demograph68:
So she's a tomboy?

um, I think it goes a bit further than that.

[saddino]

Originally posted by Turias:
This is crap. At 9? Before estrogen and testosterone and puberty? There's practically no difference between boys and girls that age, and the differences that do exist are much more societal than biological.

There is a famous case study that goes completely against this notion: the story of David Reimer. Due to a botched circumcision at eight months old, the parents, on the advice of Dr. John Money (who believed that there was no psychosexual difference between a boy or girl before about one year of age), decided to go ahead and give their son (Bruce at the time) a sex change operation and raise him as a girl (Brenda). Since he had a twin brother, this case became famous for testing whether children have any true self-awareness of gender.

Dr. Money published a book in 1972 about the "conversion" trumpeting how "successful" it had been and how it "proved" that sexuality in children is "taught" by society.

But, as David later told, "she" was confused his entire childhood: he "felt" like a boy, yet everyone told him he was a girl (his parents kept his sex-change a secret). He was extremely depressed. His parents thought that his planned estrogen treatment at puberty would finally do the trick, but it made no difference at all -- it in fact made him more confused and depressed. Finally, at age 14 his parents told him the truth. He immedietly asked to have a sex-change operation to become a man again, changed his name to David, and in doing so, finally felt the confusion of his childhood lift away. He eventually married and spoke to groups about gender confusion and his story.

There is a great book on the David Reimer case:
As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised as a Girl

Sadly, David Reimer committed suicide last year.

[demograph68]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
um, I think it goes a bit further than that.

How so? I don't understand the " brain of a boy" thing. She plays with toy cars instead of dolls?

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by demograph68:
How so? I don't understand the " brain of a boy" thing. She plays with toy cars instead of dolls?

My guess is when time comes she will like girls.

[MacNStein]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
My guess is when time comes she will like girls.

and what's wrong with that?

[demograph68]

Originally posted by saddino:
Sadly, David Reimer committed suicide last year.

That sucks. What a ****ed up life for one to live.

[TheBadgerHunter]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
um, I think it goes a bit further than that.

Really? At the grand old age of 9? I hardly think its an appropriate age to do this kind of thing either way.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by TheBadgerHunter:
Really? At the grand old age of 9? I hardly think its an appropriate age to do this kind of thing either way.

Really. Most tomboys play in the mud with toy cars. They don't come to school with a boys name telling everyone they are a boy.

Like I said she she is OLDER she will probably like girls (tomboys don't).

[malvolio]

Originally posted by Turias:
This is crap. At 9? Before estrogen and testosterone and puberty? There's practically no difference between boys and girls that age, and the differences that do exist are much more societal than biological.

Mmmm, not true. Gay friends tell me they were aware of their gayness at a very early age - 4 or 5.
And I was certainly aware of my straightness early on. It just wasn't any fun playing Doctor with other guys.

[Millennium]

Revolutionary Girl Utena, anyone? Or Rose of Versailles? Hell; even Princess Knight?

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by malvolio:
Mmmm, not true. Gay friends tell me they were aware of their gayness at a very early age - 4 or 5.

Same with me, I knew well before puberty. Perhaps even 9ish.

[ghporter]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
Really. Most tomboys play in the mud with toy cars. They don't come to school with a boys name telling everyone they are a boy.

Like I said she she is OLDER she will probably like girls (tomboys don't).

Correct. Tomboys are girls who like to hang around with other girls (gender identification grouping), do "girl things" like group whispers and giggling, etc. and in general behave like girls that don't want to be shackled by "girlie" limitations-I'd hate to think about trying to enjoy recess in a skirt!

This gender identification grouping begins very early, often as early as three years of age-this is subject to variations because parents manage their children's associations and everyone develops and matures at his or her own rate. People know what group they belong in and tend to congregate with that group, even very, very young children.

If this individual is not associating with girls in this manner, then it is extremely significant. Further, Massachusets has some very good research hospitals, and there is a chance that the parents got truly enlightened guidance based on real investigation.

It is an odd situation, but not "weird" or "sad" or anything else-except maybe "interesting." I'd like to see how this child develops into an adult, and the problems that crop up along the way.

[Oisín]

Originally posted by malvolio:
Mmmm, not true. Gay friends tell me they were aware of their gayness at a very early age - 4 or 5.

Yup, here too - before 5 at least.

I just hope this whole thing doesn't end up confusing that kid more than he is already. If he ends up being more clear on who he is (and probably ends up having a sex change later on in life then), this is good. But it might go the other way and render him even more incapable of figuring who he really is, which is the kind of thing that has a horrifying tendency of leading to teenage suicides and other terrible things in that general category.

[Cody Dawg]

I always felt and acted like a boy when I was little (I'm not a boy.) I built forts, rode around on ATV vehicles, kept bugs and small animals as pets, and never, not once, had a doll. I never thought about whether or not I was a girl or a boy. To this day I despise the color pink and I rarely wear cosmetics. Did I ever wish I was a boy? No. I'm very happy with my gender and wouldn't have it any other way. I have been told that I think more like a man than a woman and though it may be true, it always puzzles me because I don't understand the difference. I would rather hang out in the company of men than most women, however, so maybe it is true.

There is nothing that a boy can do that a girl cannot except urinate a certain way.

These parents are sickos. The little girl wouldn't even be aware of the ability to change genders if it weren't for the parents.

I can assure you, it was not the little girl's idea to begin referring to herself as a little boy. The parents initiated that. If she still thinks she's a boy at the age of 16, then maybe do something about it then. But at the age of 9?

Give me a break.

[mitchell_pgh]

Regardless of her sexuality, she is a girl.

It's as silly as me requesting that everyone call me George Washington and treat me like the first president of the United States of America.

[JHromadka]

Originally posted by hart:
1-what the heck is a male brain anyway?

She used logic, could fold a map, and could burp on command.

/ducks

[Cody Dawg]

Actually, that is closer to the truth than you know.

Whenever I have to go someplace I always ask for the STREET ADDRESS. Why is it that most women never give the street address? They always try to navigate you to the place using landmarks! "Turn at the third street on the left by the big tree. You'll see a white van there. Turn there. Then go down, uh, about four houses and on the right you'll see a green fence. Just past that green fence you'll see a black mailbox and that's our house."

Why not give the freaking address!

Men are just as bad in the opposite way. They request the address...but then when they cannot find the address they, for some reason, refuse to ask for help! They will not call the person and say, "I can't find your place, can you help me out?" Nor will they stop at the nearest convenience store or gas station and ask for help. Men are content to continue to drive around for hours, in circles and sometimes aimlessly, on the off-chance that they will suddenly arrive at the destination in question. Women, on other hand, will stop and ask. (Or at least drive through a McDonald's for a Coke and a, "By the way, do you know where...")



Luckily, I do both: Request a street address and do not disdain stopping to ask for directions.

[Xeo]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Did I ever wish I was a boy? No. I'm very happy with my gender and wouldn't have it any other way.

...

These parents are sickos. The little girl wouldn't even be aware of the ability to change genders if it weren't for the parents.

I can assure you, it was not the little girl's idea to begin referring to herself as a little boy. The parents initiated that.

You kinda shot your argument in the foot right there. You just said you were a tomboy but never wished you were a boy. You disregard it, but it seems this little girl has expressed that she feels like a boy. You never wished it. She has. That's your difference.

This causes issues though. Firstly, did she go back to the same school? The other kids surely won't take this well. Her life of ridicule starts there. Secondly, what about as a teen? What locker room does she go into? You can't just say "the boys room" because showers with the other boys will be a little different when she has breasts and no penis. Not to mention, other parents probably won't like their kids being mixed like that.

Frankly, I am also of the opinion that she is a girl. If she wants to live a boys life, OK, it doesn't matter to me, but genetically she is a girl. All the surgery in the world won't change those genes.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by Xeo:
You kinda shot your argument in the foot right there. You just said you were a tomboy but never wished you were a boy. You disregard it, but it seems this little girl has expressed that she feels like a boy. You never wished it. She has. That's your difference.

This causes issues though. Firstly, did she go back to the same school? The other kids surely won't take this well. Her life of ridicule starts there. Secondly, what about as a teen? What locker room does she go into? You can't just say "the boys room" because showers with the other boys will be a little different when she has breasts and no penis. Not to mention, other parents probably won't like their kids being mixed like that.

Frankly, I am also of the opinion that she is a girl. If she wants to live a boys life, OK, it doesn't matter to me, but genetically she is a girl. All the surgery in the world won't change those genes.

Just because she showed interest doesn't mean the parents should cater to her.

[Xeo]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
Just because she showed interest doesn't mean the parents should cater to her.

Perhaps, but what we know of the story doesn't tell us much.

1) She could have been "showing interest" her whole life.
2) They took her to professionals which apparently agreed.
3) It's what the girl wants.

However:

1) The parents could just want a boy. (iow, they are messed up)
2) They took her to professional after professional until they found one that agreed.
3) She's only 9.

The fact of the matter is, we don't know what's going on. So if the parents really are doing this because the girl wants it, then I applaud their open mindedness. But if they just want a boy so they convinced her that's what she wants, then they are messed up. "Sickos" as Cody put it.

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
<snip>
These parents are sickos. The little girl wouldn't even be aware of the ability to change genders if it weren't for the parents.

I can assure you, it was not the little girl's idea to begin referring to herself as a little boy. The parents initiated that. If she still thinks she's a boy at the age of 16, then maybe do something about it then. But at the age of 9?

Give me a break.

Those are very strong statements to make, without knowing the specifics of the case. Are you an expert on mental health, or gender identity?

[Xeo]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Luckily, I do both: Request a street address and do not disdain stopping to ask for directions.

You mentioned in another thread that you spent time in Tokyo. You don't go to Japan without being willing to ask for directions. The address system there needs a major overhaul.

(Even before going to Japan, I stopped and asked for directions when needed, but prefer to get the street address. Something more solid about the facts rather than driving aimlessly until some landmark which might be "the one" comes up.)

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Actually, that is closer to the truth than you know.

Whenever I have to go someplace I always ask for the STREET ADDRESS. Why is it that most women never give the street address? They always try to navigate you to the place using landmarks! "Turn at the third street on the left by the big tree. You'll see a white van there. Turn there. Then go down, uh, about four houses and on the right you'll see a green fence. Just past that green fence you'll see a black mailbox and that's our house."

Why not give the freaking address!

Men are just as bad in the opposite way. They request the address...but then when they cannot find the address they, for some reason, refuse to ask for help! They will not call the person and say, "I can't find your place, can you help me out?" Nor will they stop at the nearest convenience store or gas station and ask for help. Men are content to continue to drive around for hours, in circles and sometimes aimlessly, on the off-chance that they will suddenly arrive at the destination in question. Women, on other hand, will stop and ask. (Or at least drive through a McDonald's for a Coke and a, "By the way, do you know where...")



Luckily, I do both: Request a street address and do not disdain stopping to ask for directions.

Stereotypes are always fun, but are they really valid? I would think that someone who can remember enough visual cues to describe to someone else how to get to a place using landmarks simply has a very visual memory.

For example, I have what I describe to others as a "low resolution" photographic memory. That is, I can't do like in the movies and just glance at a sheet of paper and memorize the text. But I do store a low res picture of the sheet of paper so that if I need to find something -- for example a footnote that I had read before -- I can flip through the book and pick out the one that has the right shape of text. I don't need to read the text to know which page looks like the one I saw before.

Or similarly, I can remember places and scenes very exactly, almost like a photo. Last year I tested myself with a place I hadn't been to in 25 years. I had it all picture perfect. So it is easy for me to give directions in the way you say. I'm just playing the movie in my head and describing it.

I always assumed everyone could do this stuff. It is only recently that I figured out that other people remember things differently. My partner, for example, says his memory is quite different. He doesn't have a picture in his head of everything, but he is much better at, say, names than me.

So is gender the reason why some people have a visual memory, and not others? If so, why do I (a gay male) have it while my partner (also a gay male) does not?

[TheBadgerHunter]

Originally posted by Xeo:
You kinda shot your argument in the foot right there. You just said you were a tomboy but never wished you were a boy. You disregard it, but it seems this little girl has expressed that she feels like a boy. You never wished it. She has. That's your difference.

This causes issues though. Firstly, did she go back to the same school? The other kids surely won't take this well. Her life of ridicule starts there. Secondly, what about as a teen? What locker room does she go into? You can't just say "the boys room" because showers with the other boys will be a little different when she has breasts and no penis. Not to mention, other parents probably won't like their kids being mixed like that.

Frankly, I am also of the opinion that she is a girl. If she wants to live a boys life, OK, it doesn't matter to me, but genetically she is a girl. All the surgery in the world won't change those genes.

Is she mature enough to understand what this really means? I've known many people who wished to be another gender even at that age and older but grew out of it so to speak.

No rational parent should take a child's whim so seriously. When they are of the age to truly understand the decision let them make it.

[TheBadgerHunter]

Originally posted by malvolio:
Mmmm, not true. Gay friends tell me they were aware of their gayness at a very early age - 4 or 5.
And I was certainly aware of my straightness early on. It just wasn't any fun playing Doctor with other guys.

Good lord, you can't expect anyone to believe that? At those ages memory is very vague at best. My guess is the *think* they remember their gayness.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by TheBadgerHunter:
Is she mature enough to understand what this really means? I've known many people who wished to be another gender even at that age and older but grew out of it so to speak.

No rational parent should take a child's whim so seriously. When they are of the age to truly understand the decision let them make it.

They are not putting her under the knife. Let her do what she wants now, it is a great way for her to find out.

[TheBadgerHunter]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
They are not putting her under the knife. Let her do what she wants now, it is a great way for her to find out.

Other children's reaction can cut just as bad as any knife. Psychological trauma is never a good way to sort out a complicated issue. I would say it would confuse her far more (assuming she does feel this way).

[JHromadka]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
Men are just as bad in the opposite way. They request the address...but then when they cannot find the address they, for some reason, refuse to ask for help! They will not call the person and say, "I can't find your place, can you help me out?" Nor will they stop at the nearest convenience store or gas station and ask for help. Men are content to continue to drive around for hours, in circles and sometimes aimlessly, on the off-chance that they will suddenly arrive at the destination in question. Women, on other hand, will stop and ask. (Or at least drive through a McDonald's for a Coke and a, "By the way, do you know where...")

See, then it becomes a game of "Can I find the place?" This helps us hone our wilderness skills. It also allows us to be cognizant of compass directions. "Take I-10 East." "Huh?" "Sigh. Take a Right on I-10." Especially since we have names for all the freeways. I-10 is the Katy Freeway on the west side of town, and I-45 is the Gulf Freeway on the South side.

I usually give both types of directions just in case, and I only play the game until I think I'll be late, then I'll ask.

[Millennium]

In any case, my first reaction, were I the school district, would be to find out if this male-in-a-female-body thing actually originates with the child's own beliefs, or if it is due to the parents pressuring their daughter to be the son they really wanted. Neither possibility is unheard of, and at a young age like that it's almost impossible to tell without digging very deeply.

[the_glassman]

When I was 4 or 5, I was pretty sure I was gay or at least I felt gay. I decided later that I was not gay and decided I would rather be straight. If she wants to be a boy let her.

[malvolio]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Or similarly, I can remember places and scenes very exactly, almost like a photo. Last year I tested myself with a place I hadn't been to in 25 years. I had it all picture perfect.

So this place has not seen much new construction in the past 25 years, eh?

I once got lost after attending a party out in "the boonies" in an area I had never been before. It was 3 a.m., pouring rain, and damn few signs of human habitation. And I was running low on gas.
I thought to myself that I was, broadly speaking, somewhere in the Hudson River valley. So every time I had a choice between a road heading uphill and one heading downhill, I took the downhill choice. I figured that in that way I would eventually reach the Hudson River and an area I knew.
It worked.

[TheBadgerHunter]

Originally posted by the_glassman:
When I was 4 or 5, I was pretty sure I was gay or at least I felt gay. I decided later that I was not gay and decided I would rather be straight. If she wants to be a boy let her.

Yeah, let the kid make a life-altering decision and if it screws her up then its her own damn fault.

[nredman]

if it were my child i would try to talk to her about it all and seek help. she wouldn't live as a boy as long as she wasn't 18, after that i would support her (or try my best to).

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by malvolio:
So this place has not seen much new construction in the past 25 years, eh?

Not much at all. It's a Village in England. A good part of it hasn't changed in 100 - 150 years, and the church is 13th century (though large bits have been added).

Here are a couple of pictures:





Below is the community center, but it was originally the elementary (primary) school. It's a 19th century building with two rooms. This was my first school. I went there until 1974, when the new school opened. They have since torn down the outside toilets (the bog). Otherwise, it is pretty much the same.

[tooki]

Originally posted by TheBadgerHunter:
Good lord, you can't expect anyone to believe that? At those ages memory is very vague at best. My guess is the *think* they remember their gayness.

No, you're wrong.

As an adult, I remember vividly certain experiences that at the time had no meaning to me (or at least didn't seem out of the ordinary, since they were normal to me) that later, after realizing I was gay, all make sense now.

Some people say they knew they were gay very early; I certainly didn't. But I certainly had gay feelings(now that I can identify them as gay) for as far back as I can remember. (And I remember the house we lived in when I was 2.)

tooki

[ryaxnb]

Originally posted by Xeo:
All the surgery in the world won't change those genes.

http://www.snopes.com/movies/films/bondgirl.php