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Eug Wanker · Mar 9, 2005, 04:53 AM

http://xbox.gamespy.com/xbox/microso...html?fromint=1

Three core 3 GHz PowerPC CPU. (Not a G5 though.)

500 MHz next-gen ATI GPU.

A bunch of other stuff, but no HDDVD or BluRay.

screamingFit · Mar 9, 2005, 05:11 AM

Hopefully, they'll have some decent games for their next console unlike the XBOX now. Be a shame to have all that fancy new hardware and shite to play on it.

ManOfSteal · Mar 9, 2005, 06:30 AM

Originally posted by screamingFit:
Hopefully, they'll have some decent games for their next console unlike the XBOX now. Be a shame to have all that fancy new hardware and shite to play on it.

Yeah, I want "Duck Hunt" as well...oh, and "Excitebike"...

JohnSmithXTREME · Mar 9, 2005, 07:16 AM

XBox is by far the best console of the lot

mitchell_pgh · Mar 9, 2005, 07:22 AM

I've heard rumors that it has a gun, jump pad and even a robot that you can buy and control.

beb · Mar 9, 2005, 07:53 AM

I heard that New Sensations is making a USB compatiable blow-up doll so that you can have virtual sex with it.

Cadaver · Mar 9, 2005, 07:58 AM

But the real question remains... are games developed for the Xbox 2 going to be any easier to port to the Mac, given the PowerPC nature of the Xbox 2's CPU?

The Godfather · Mar 9, 2005, 08:10 AM

Originally posted by Cadaver:
But the real question remains... are games developed for the Xbox 2 going to be any easier to port to the Mac, given the PowerPC nature of the Xbox 2's CPU?

Or, conversely, being able to run OSX in the XBox.

JohnSmithXTREME · Mar 9, 2005, 08:16 AM

Originally posted by The Godfather:
Or, conversely, being able to run OSX in the XBox.

Mac OS X with a 3ghz processor.. at last!

nforcer · Mar 9, 2005, 08:18 AM

It sounds good. Would be interested to know more about the specific type of "PowerPC" it uses.

Eug Wanker · Mar 9, 2005, 08:32 AM

Originally posted by nforcer:
It sounds good. Would be interested to know more about the specific type of "PowerPC" it uses.

My guess is it's similar to the PPE in Cell. Except that there are three of them, at lower clock speed.

Originally posted by Cadaver:
But the real question remains... are games developed for the Xbox 2 going to be any easier to port to the Mac, given the PowerPC nature of the Xbox 2's CPU?

Not really.

zizban · Mar 9, 2005, 08:37 AM

Originally posted by beb:
I heard that New Sensations is making a USB compatiable blow-up doll so that you can have virtual sex with it.

Whew, now I wont have to use my iBook.

ort888 · Mar 9, 2005, 08:49 AM

No built-in hard drive sucks.

spatterson · Mar 9, 2005, 09:02 AM

I want Paperboy to be on this XBOX

E's Lil Theorem · Mar 9, 2005, 09:21 AM

Originally posted by ManOfSteal:
Yeah, I want "Duck Hunt" ...

Man, I love that game. Wish I had my 'tendo system still.

spacefreak · Mar 9, 2005, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by JohnSmithXTREME:
XBox is by far the best console of the lot

Performance-wise, I'd agree. I just wish someone would make a controller for it that is a replica of the one included with Playstations.

They are the most comfortable controllers in my opinion.

ort888 · Mar 9, 2005, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Performance-wise, I'd agree. I just wish someone would make a controller for it that is a replica of the one included with Playstations.

They are the most comfortable controllers in my opinion.

You can buy an adaptor that lets you use a PS2 controller. Don't know how well it works, but it's out there.

Big Mac · Mar 9, 2005, 10:37 AM

Three core 3GHz PPC? I'll believe it when I see it. Obligatory comment: M$ sucks.

ajprice · Mar 9, 2005, 11:16 AM

How have they got 3 cores going on it anyway, I thought these things worked on multiples, ie. 1,2,4,8 etc ???

Eug Wanker · Mar 9, 2005, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by Big Mac:
Three core 3GHz PPC? I'll believe it when I see it.

Well, it's good to be skeptical, but I believe it. One chip with 3 PPE-like PowerPC cores is definitely doable at 3 GHz, judging by the Cell CPU specs. (Cell is likely to be significantly higher clocked.) Plus, 3 GHz is actually a down-spec from the previous 3.5 GHz spec (which also might have been doable, except for heat considerations), and the die size likely won't be huge, so cost shouldn't be sky high.

Obligatory comment: M$ sucks.

I hate people who overgeneralize, they're all the same!

Originally posted by ajprice:
How have they got 3 cores going on it anyway, I thought these things worked on multiples, ie. 1,2,4,8 etc ???

Well, as you can see, this doesn't have to be the case.

BasketofPuppies · Mar 9, 2005, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by ManOfSteal:
Yeah, I want "Duck Hunt" as well...oh, and "Excitebike"...

Only if you can shoot the dog like you could in the arcade version.

Otherwise, what's the point?

ort888 · Mar 9, 2005, 11:50 AM

It gives me a healthy outlet for expressing my incredible hatred for ducks.

zizban · Mar 9, 2005, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by ort888:
It gives me a healthy outlet for expressing my incredible hatred for ducks.

Garage81 · Mar 9, 2005, 12:42 PM

sign me up for the preorder list.

i liked how MS was requiring every title to be "live aware" and how every title must be able to run at a minimum of 720p.

Superchicken · Mar 9, 2005, 04:25 PM

Now.. how hard is it gona be to get linux running on it...

MacNStein · Mar 9, 2005, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by Superchicken:
Now.. how hard is it gona be to get linux running on it...

I'm sure someone will figure it out (no doubt will require optional HD).

Lateralus · Mar 9, 2005, 07:18 PM

I wonder if they'll put it in a VCR case again...

theolein · Mar 9, 2005, 07:55 PM

Those specs are very, very impressive. It's quite a bit more powerful than anything Apple has out now. Given that the 3 core PPC will be more like the IBM Power5 (dual core) than the PPC970, I wonder how hot this thing will run?

I suppose though that Apple will have by then released G5 Macs with similar speeds, since there hasn't been any update to the tower line in a while now.

What is interesting is that Microsoft is doing its level best to capture the game market, and not only the game market. I see where Microsoft is going with the built in media player and camera, obligatory online experience for all games and minimum HDTV resolution. They are trying to do to the market what Apple has done with stuff like iTunes, iChat and iSight. I would be very surprised if Microsoft is not going to try and use the XBox2 as their way of capturing the integrated experience that Apple has had a lock on with its own hardware and software, except that Microsoft will be able to lock out the competition even more thoroughly with the console.

I fully expect Microsoft to offer video chats, instant messaging, its own music store etc through a monthly subscription service such as Xbox live. Your average user doesn't care as long as it's easy to use and works. If the device includes a browser then you know that it is indeed aimed at Apple's iMac and Mac mini as well.

I think this is aimed squarely at both Sony and Apple, not because it uses a PPC but because of the feature integration and the sheer speed it will offer. I think Sony might just suffer heavy loss of marketshare unless the PS3, with its Cell processor really is so much faster that there's no competition and if Sony manages to get its online integration and feature set at the same level, which I doubt they will do.

The only real problem might be price. I can't see Microsoft selling this at a very low price (under $300) unless they're willing to take even heavier losses than they do with the XBox.

theolein · Mar 9, 2005, 08:19 PM

I just thought about something else though. I see this console as part of the usual Microsoft strategy to take over a market, as they did with DOS, Windows, Office, the browser and WinNT in the server world. A whole boatload of companies have suffered from this and IBM is one of them, when MS made sure that OS/2 never got anywhere.

Now, I know IBM is a business and will obviously want to make as much money as possible with its PPC line of processors (Power5, Cell, G5, this MS 3 core thing). But I wonder if there aren't people at IBM who would love to shaft Microsoft with the next iteration of this processor, much the same way Motorola shafted Apple with the G4 after Apple killed the clones? It would certainly make a dent in Microsoft's plans if IBM simply dragged its heels on a further iteration while Sony got further ahead with newer versions of the Cell and Apple got multicore PPC's.

And, talking about that I wonder if MS has an exclusive agreement with IBM so that no one else, especially Apple will be able to use this CPU in the Macs in future?

exca1ibur · Mar 9, 2005, 08:36 PM

I think this is a bit different. The competition isn't as sad as it was when they took over with DOS/Windows etc. They have some real competition in this market and the other companies aren't standing still either. During teh DOS days pretty much OS/2 and Apple took themselvees out at the same time. Appple prices were so far out there, they got low balled. OS/2 was a bit too dependent and couldn't really stand on its own, so it got left behind. I doubt IBM would do that when their success will fuel their pockets as well. At this point IBM is possibly gonna have a monopoly with the console CPU market, if teh Nintendo Revolution is PPC based as well. The good thing is that guarantees the CPU architecture wont be killed off anytime soon. Which is good for pretty much everyone on board.

Also I doubt their CPU in the X-Box2 is compatible with any Apple architectures even though it is a PPC chip as well so I dont think thats an issue or a concern. The X-Box PPC CPU is dedicated to their hardware pretty much, I'm sure.

nforcer · Mar 9, 2005, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by theolein:
I just thought about something else though. I see this console as part of the usual Microsoft strategy to take over a market, as they did with DOS, Windows, Office, the browser and WinNT in the server world. A whole boatload of companies have suffered from this and IBM is one of them, when MS made sure that OS/2 never got anywhere.

Now, I know IBM is a business and will obviously want to make as much money as possible with its PPC line of processors (Power5, Cell, G5, this MS 3 core thing). But I wonder if there aren't people at IBM who would love to shaft Microsoft with the next iteration of this processor, much the same way Motorola shafted Apple with the G4 after Apple killed the clones? It would certainly make a dent in Microsoft's plans if IBM simply dragged its heels on a further iteration while Sony got further ahead with newer versions of the Cell and Apple got multicore PPC's.

And, talking about that I wonder if MS has an exclusive agreement with IBM so that no one else, especially Apple will be able to use this CPU in the Macs in future?

I'm sure Sony and Nintendo would jump at a chance to capture the market and lockout competitors if they could, but the fierce competition between the big 3 is going to bring big benefits to consumers. I can't see Sony conceding the market any time soon and I think Nintendo has quite a bit of cash in the bank, too.

I think IBM has more to gain from this deal (and the deals with other consoles that will use their processors) than they ever did from OS/2. If I were them I wouldn't let past bitterness of some failed project get in the way of a large deal like this.

Exclusive agreements are possible, but Apple sells more Macs than MS sells Xboxes. Whatever investment and deals MS has made with IBM, it should bring about increases in general PowerPC developments and increases of awareness in the platform. That's a good thing.

Eug Wanker · Mar 9, 2005, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by exca1ibur:
Also I doubt their CPU in the X-Box2 is compatible with any Apple architectures even though it is a PPC chip as well so I dont think thats an issue or a concern. The X-Box PPC CPU is dedicated to their hardware pretty much, I'm sure.

Maybe, maybe not. Anyways, if that were true, it would be pretty easy to design a PPE-based CPU that Apple could use easily.

Originally posted by theolein:
Those specs are very, very impressive. It's quite a bit more powerful than anything Apple has out now. Given that the 3 core PPC will be more like the IBM Power5 (dual core) than the PPC970, I wonder how hot this thing will run?

The PPE unit does much less per clock than the G5 does. I'd think of it maybe like a triple-core G5 1.5 performance-wise. Still powerful to be sure, but in a lot of code the G5 2.5 would win. Mind you that's Apple's fastest Power Mac.

Wiskedjak · Mar 9, 2005, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by JohnSmithXTREME:
Mac OS X with a 3ghz processor.. at last!

Courtesy of Microsoft

Dimethyltrypt · Mar 9, 2005, 09:15 PM

I'm incredibly excited.

Yes, the Xbox 1 rocked. Yes, the Xbox 2 will kick arse.

The sad part is that gaming consoles are ironically what Microsoft does the best.

I WANT A COOL CASE, MICROSOFT....make it SLEEK. Hire Apple to design it, damnit!.

theolein · Mar 9, 2005, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
Maybe, maybe not. Anyways, if that were true, it would be pretty easy to design a PPE-based CPU that Apple could use easily.

The PPE unit does much less per clock than the G5 does. I'd think of it maybe like a triple-core G5 1.5 performance-wise. Still powerful to be sure, but in a lot of code the G5 2.5 would win. Mind you that's Apple's fastest Power Mac.

The gamespy article doesn't say that the XBox CPU is a PPE. It says that it is a 3 core PPC. The PPE (as used in the Cell CPU) has no out of order instruction execution and no L2 (or L1, I forget) cache (It doesn't need it as it has 8 extra vector units which make up for the lag). This is very obviously, at least according to the article, a multicore PPC, which Apple could very well use if it uses the ISA as a standard PPC. The differences come if and when MS made some proprietry ISA stuff on the chip, but I doubt they did, since the XBox2 developer kits are Apple dual G5 towers, which means that they will be most probably compatible.

That's why I was interested if MS tried to get an exclusive deal with IBM. If this chip runs cool enough to be used in a game console, then Apple will be able to use it in Macs (and possibly even in Powerbooks at a much lower clockrate).

I am almost certain that Microsoft plans to use the XBox2 as a media center, partly because they, being the paranoid monopolists that they are, are worried about Apple's massive successes with the Mac mini and iMac and Apple's integrated audio and video communication software. Microsoft have been longing for a long, long time to be able to control the whole package as Apple does, except, with Microsoft, the word "control" takes on a whole new meaning.

I know that it will not be a general purpose computer in the beginning, as an Imac or Mac mini is, but Microsoft probably plans to capture this market by first capturing the teenage gamers, and then their parents by introducing online messaging and productivity stuff that users have to pay a subscription fee to use. They tried to do this with Windows and Office a few years ago and it flopped, as nobody wanted to upgrade and those that did got burnt financially.

With the XBox2, users won't have a choice as MS will control the whole thing, users and even developers.

Wiskedjak · Mar 9, 2005, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by Dimethyltrypt:
I'm incredibly excited.

Yes, the Xbox 1 rocked. Yes, the Xbox 2 will kick arse.

The sad part is that gaming consoles are ironically what Microsoft does the best.

I WANT A COOL CASE, MICROSOFT....make it SLEEK. Hire Apple to design it, damnit!.

If anyone other than MS Hardware gets to design the case, it'll be IDEO. I don't believe Apple contracts out it's design capabilities.

Superchicken · Mar 9, 2005, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
Maybe, maybe not. Anyways, if that were true, it would be pretty easy to design a PPE-based CPU that Apple could use easily.

The PPE unit does much less per clock than the G5 does. I'd think of it maybe like a triple-core G5 1.5 performance-wise. Still powerful to be sure, but in a lot of code the G5 2.5 would win. Mind you that's Apple's fastest Power Mac.

OK wait... what is a PPE? At first I thought people were just making typos... or that they didn't know what they were talking about... but I know you do Eug so what's the diff?

theolein · Mar 9, 2005, 09:32 PM

A PPE is the stripped down PPC that is part of Sony and IBM's new Cell processor. The Cell is very different in that it has not only an a standard Altivec vector coprocessor, such as the one in the G4 and G5, but it also has 8 extra specialised vector units that share a common on-chip memory (in the PS3 it will be about 64MB if I understood it correctly) and therefore don't need the L1 cache or a so called dispatcher. The PPE (aka stripped down PPC) only doesn't do out of order execution, which means that it would have significant lags compared to a standard PPC, but with the 8 vector units, it doesn't matter.

Eug Wanker · Mar 9, 2005, 09:59 PM

The gamespy article doesn't say that the XBox CPU is a PPE. It says that it is a 3 core PPC. The PPE (as used in the Cell CPU) has no out of order instruction execution and no L2 (or L1, I forget) cache (It doesn't need it as it has 8 extra vector units which make up for the lag).

From the article: "CPU - Xenon's CPU has three 3.0 GHz PowerPC cores. Each core is capable of two instructions per cycle and has an L1 cache with 32 KB for data and 32 KB for instructions."

And Cell's PPE [For superchicken: PowerPC Processing Element] core also is capable of two instructons per cycle and has a 32 KB L1 cache, with 512 KB shared L2 cache.

IOW, Cell's PPE core is very similar to one of the Xenon cores.

Superchicken · Mar 9, 2005, 10:53 PM

So does this mean the Proc in the new Xbox is going to be very similar to that in the PS 2? Hmm, wouldn't it be cheaper for IBM to just make one... or do you think both had a lot that they wanted to make sure was in?

Eug Wanker · Mar 9, 2005, 11:24 PM

Originally posted by Superchicken:
So does this mean the Proc in the new Xbox is going to be very similar to that in the PS 2? Hmm, wouldn't it be cheaper for IBM to just make one... or do you think both had a lot that they wanted to make sure was in?

No, Xenon's 3-core CPU and Sony's Cell are completely different. They just share one core component.

Xenon is 3 PPE-like cores, with links to each other, and that's about it.

Cell is 1 PPE core, 8 SPE cores, an integrated Rambus memory controller and lots of high speed links, etc. and it's probably higher clocked.

Xenon looks more like a traditional multi-core design, whereas Cell is quite a radical departure.

If Apple were to use a PPE-like core, my guess is it would look like something closer to the Xenon CPU, but with 2 cores instead of three, and higher speed. And what I find curious is that the Xbox 2 developers are using machines with 2 cores instead of three. Hmmm...

Superchicken · Mar 9, 2005, 11:29 PM

Wouldn't it be nice if Apple added in stuff like this? Actually I really just wanna hear how they'd market it.

Hawkeye_a · Mar 10, 2005, 03:05 AM

Originally posted by Cadaver:
But the real question remains... are games developed for the Xbox 2 going to be any easier to port to the Mac, given the PowerPC nature of the Xbox 2's CPU?

doubt it. The Nintendo GameCube uses a modified PPC G3 processor(made by IBM) and an ATI graphics card. No gamecube games on the Mac. I reckon the media size was also a factor.

But on the other hand, the development kits sent to game developers, are actually PowerPC G5 boxes from Apple loaded with the appropriate software.

theolein · Mar 10, 2005, 06:13 AM

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
From the article: "CPU - Xenon's CPU has three 3.0 GHz PowerPC cores. Each core is capable of two instructions per cycle and has an L1 cache with 32 KB for data and 32 KB for instructions."

And Cell's PPE [For superchicken: PowerPC Processing Element] core also is capable of two instructons per cycle and has a 32 KB L1 cache, with 512 KB shared L2 cache.

IOW, Cell's PPE core is very similar to one of the Xenon cores.

You're right. After I went to Ars and read the article on the Cell, I realised that it is the same as the Cell's PPE core. It aslo makes sense, since I suppose it would be difficult for IBM to design yet another PPC just for Microsoft. However, this astounds me, absolutely. The Cell PPE core has no instruction ordering logic to speak of, and it's vector unit is not the same as the massive one on a late model G4 or G5.

According to the Ars article, the PPE will be quite limited compared to a G4 or G5 in other words. It will be quite interesting to see what sort of benchmarks it eventually brings out, since it's not as capable as a full fledged PPC, yet has three in parallel running at 3 GHz.

BasketofPuppies · Mar 10, 2005, 06:40 AM

Originally posted by Lateralus:
I wonder if they'll put it in a VCR case again...

It won't. The reason why the Xbox didn't catch on at all in Japan--beyond porno games anyway--is its size. Microsoft is serious about getting a piece of the Japanese market this time and has publicly stated the Xbox Next (or Xbox 360 or Nextbox or Xenon or whatever Microsoft decides to call the Xbox successor) will be significantly smaller than the current Xbox.

As for this optional 2 gig hard disk, unless it works as an original Xbox compatibility kit, I doubt it will ever be released. Developers aren't going to spend the time optimizing games for an optional peripheral few people will buy, let alone require it.

faragbre967 · Mar 10, 2005, 07:36 AM

I'll be buying this as long as it doesn't sound like a vacuum cleaner. I have to turn the volume up on the games loud as hell just to drown out my console. Actually who am I kidding, I'll be buying anyways...

BasketofPuppies · Mar 12, 2005, 04:01 AM

IGN has more details on the Xbox Next.

Highlights:

Significantly smaller. Smaller than the original PS2. "Organic" shape.

Optional 2.5" hard disk drive will enable backward compatibility with original Xbox games. (Space undecided.)

64 meg to 1 gig memory cards. (8 megs reserved for system use.) Slots on console, not controllers. Headsets still connect to controllers.

Wireless controller support built-in. Corded controllers also supported. Black and white buttons replaced by two additional shoulder buttons.

Two controller ports and one USB port. (Multitaps to be announced?)

Hawkeye_a · Mar 12, 2005, 06:54 AM

Ummmm... dont mean to troll. But like...for a gameconsole, i dont want options for configurations....just give me a console u know ? Heck, im a software engineer, and to be honest when it comes to consumer electronics, i think the general public, has no idea what these specs mean...and they really dont want to know. When you add these kinds of options to a gaming console, it makes it more of a BTO PC than a console.

I wonder if using Dual layer DVDs is a good move since piracy of XBox games is quite rampant from what i hear.

On a positive note.... it's nice to see Microsoft embracing similar technology in their console that Nintendo has. And also paying attention to asthetics the way Nintendo has (size).

I wonder if there's going to be a partnership here to gang up on Sony.... just a thought.

E's Lil Theorem · Mar 12, 2005, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by BasketofPuppies:
It won't. The reason why the Xbox didn't catch on at all in Japan--beyond porno games anyway--is its size. ...

I always thought it was because Japanese people tend to be very proud and thus, when available, only buy local products, i.e., PSs. Actually, I think I may have read this somewhere, but I can't think of where at the moment.

BasketofPuppies · Mar 12, 2005, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by E's Lil Theorem:
I always thought it was because Japanese people tend to be very proud and thus, when available, only buy local products, i.e., PSs. Actually, I think I may have read this somewhere, but I can't think of where at the moment.

That doesn't help, but the main reason Japanese gamers won't even consider buying Xboxes--again, beyond those creepy guys who play porno games--is its size.