[Hugi]

AOL has posted new terms of service for AIM, that include the right for AOL to use anything and everything you send through AIM in any way they see fit, without informing you. A sample passage: '...by posting Content on an AIM Product, you grant AOL, its parent, affiliates, subsidiaries, assigns, agents and licensees the irrevocable, perpetual, worldwide right to reproduce, display, perform, distribute, adapt and promote this Content in any medium. You waive any right to privacy. You waive any right to inspect or approve uses of the Content or to be compensated for any such uses.

More...

Good lord, and I've been pressuring friends and family to use AIM rather than MSN. Looks like it's back to MSN for me.

[Mafia]

this wants to make me switch to a different client, but i literally have 100's of contacts and friends on aim.

[E's Lil Theorem]

Wait, does this affect third party clients such as iChat or just AIM?

EDIT: crap, "an AIM Product" includes AIM servers. This means third party clients, which use AIM servers, are affected.

[tooki]

More mindless knee-jerking. If you actually read the whole section of the TOS that they're quoting, the preceding sentence explains how you, as the content creator, retain copyright.

Note also that in a court, those terms of service do not constitute a contract, and so you could probably successfully sue AOL if they tried to use something without permission.

And of course, there's also the fact that most AIM traffic doesn't go through the AIM servers at all -- it's direct point-to-point communication between both ends (AIM just coordinates the building up of the connection). AIM (but not iChat) offers the option to make all your traffic run through the AIM servers. But even if all traffic DID go through their servers, it would be impractical and pointless for them to filter and save it -- it's too much data to be of any use.

I think AOL's TOS are stupid and foster ill will, but in practice it probably won't matter in the slightest.

tooki

[TheBadgerHunter]

Originally posted by E's Lil Theorem:
Wait, does this affect third party clients such as iChat or just AIM?

They use the AIM service so yeah.

[MilkmanDan]

WTF! LAMED! OWZED by APPLE! :-(

Wow, they can view everyone's lame IM conversations or AIM sex.

[E's Lil Theorem]

Originally posted by tooki:
...
And of course, there's also the fact that most AIM traffic doesn't go through the AIM servers at all -- it's direct point-to-point communication between both ends ...

I thought it was the other way around, as in you have to manually set up a direct connection, otherwise it goes through the AOL servers.

[Hugi]

Originally posted by tooki:
More mindless knee-jerking. If you actually read the whole section of the TOS that they're quoting, the preceding sentence explains how you, as the content creator, retain copyright.

Note also that in a court, those terms of service do not constitute a contract, and so you could probably successfully sue AOL if they tried to use something without permission.

And of course, there's also the fact that most AIM traffic doesn't go through the AIM servers at all -- it's direct point-to-point communication between both ends (AIM just coordinates the building up of the connection). AIM (but not iChat) offers the option to make all your traffic run through the AIM servers. But even if all traffic DID go through their servers, it would be impractical and pointless for them to filter and save it -- it's too much data to be of any use.

I think AOL's TOS are stupid and foster ill will, but in practice it probably won't matter in the slightest.

tooki

Well, I'm happy to hear that. I had to read three times throught the preceding sentence before I understood it (hopefully) correctly. My legalese is getting rusty.

Regarding direct conversations, I thought all conversations in iChat went through AOL's servers until you pasted in a picture or transferred other binary files? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

But I must say that I can't understand why any traffic should have to go through AOL's servers. It seems redundant, and I don't see what they stand to gain from monitoring conversation content.

[E's Lil Theorem]

Originally posted by Hugi:
...Regarding direct conversations, I thought all conversations in iChat went through AOL's servers until you pasted in a picture or transferred other binary files? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

But I must say that I can't understand why any traffic should have to go through AOL's servers. It seems redundant, and I don't see what they stand to gain from monitoring conversation content.

It's what I thought, too, regarding the direct conversations. As far as AOL "listening" to conversations, there are many things they could do to profit, including targeted advertising. For example, if you're talking about flowers, BAM, a 1-800-FLOWERS ad pops up. And so on...

[goMac]

If you read at Slashdot everyone has misread the terms of service. Notice the use of the word "post". Earlier in the TOS the word "post" has already been outlined to mean posting on AOL's forums or in a chat room. The TOS does not give AIM the right to look at your im's. Whole discussion on Slashdot about this. Really a knee jerk reaction. AIM's new TOS do not say they can read your im's.

[Hugi]

Originally posted by goMac:
If you read at Slashdot everyone has misread the terms of service. Notice the use of the word "post". Earlier in the TOS the word "post" has already been outlined to mean posting on AOL's forums or in a chat room. The TOS does not give AIM the right to look at your im's. Whole discussion on Slashdot about this. Really a knee jerk reaction. AIM's new TOS do not say they can read your im's.

I can't find where this is pointed out, could you please point it out to me.

In my opinion I think labeling a discussion about this a "knee jerk reaction" is rather condescending. To me, using a communications service with terms that contain the words "You waive any right to privacy" just seems wrong.

[goMac]

From the TOS

"AOL does not read your private online communications when you use any of the communication tools offered as AIM Products. If, however, you use these tools to disclose information about yourself publicly (for example, in chat rooms or online message boards made available by AIM), other online users may obtain access to any information you provide.

Your AIM information, including the contents of your online communications, may be accessed and disclosed in response to legal process (for example, a court order, search warrant or subpoena), or in other circumstances in which AOL has a good faith belief that AIM or AOL are being used for unlawful purposes. AOL may also access or disclose your AIM information when necessary to protect the rights or property of AIM or AOL, or in special cases such as a threat to your safety or that of others."

From Slashdot

The content referred to in the Privacy Policy is for posts in AIM forums and message boards and such, and the point of all that crap in the TOS is so that AOL has the legal right to copy and display anything you put in the forum worldwide, for as long as the forum/website exists, and you can't in any way sue them over something you post in the forum. It's NOT saying "we will read your IMs and reproduce and use them however we want". Please mod this up so at least some people read it and stop freaking out and spreading FUD unneccessarily.

http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?...p;cid=11918776

[Hugi]

The TOS says "for example in chat rooms or online message boards". Earlier it is clearly stated that it applies to all AIM software and services. So that should include IM, right?

Call me paranoid, I just don't like the general idea of someone listening in on (and storing) my private or business conversations and I prefer not to endorse companies that behave like this. If we accept this, then how long before phone companies are allowed to do the same?

/me puts on tinfoil hat

[goMac]

Originally posted by Hugi:
The TOS says "for example in chat rooms or online message boards". Earlier it is clearly stated that it applies to all AIM software and services. So that should include IM, right?

Call me paranoid, I just don't like the general idea of someone listening in on (and storing) my private or business conversations and I prefer not to endorse companies that behave like this. If we accept this, then how long before phone companies are allowed to do the same?

/me puts on tinfoil hat

Sure, but they state publicly available stuff. AIM conversations are private between two parties.

Also I doubt AIM would want to do this considering they just came out with their new AIM business solutions the other day.

[Wiskedjak]

I've always thought AIM was a bad choice for Apple to partner with

[lavar78]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
I've always thought AIM was a bad choice for Apple to partner with

Why? It makes sense that they went with the most popular service. (Yes, I know it isn't the most popular everywhere.)

[dampeoples]

The sky is falling! AOL might send all of us personalized CD's!

[MrForgetable]

Originally posted by dampeoples:
The sky is falling! AOL might send all of us personalized CD's!

i get about an AOL CD personalized to me telling me to sign up for the AOL service.

[goMac]

AOL issued a response:

http://www.chron.com/content/chronic...log/index.html

"America Online spokesman Andrew Weinstein responded to a request for more information about AOL Instant Messenger's terms of service, which I wrote about Saturday after spotting it on Slashdot.



The terms would appear to indicate that anything generated using AIM is fair game for AOL to use, which would mean private IM communications are not so private.


_But Weinstein said that's not the case.


The clause in question specifically refers to something an AIM user might post in a public forum, Weinstein says. He writes:


_The related_section of the Terms of Service is called "Content You Post" and, as such, logically and legally it relates only to content a user posts in a public area of the service.


If a user posts content in a public area of the service, like a chat room, message board, or other public forum, that information may be used by AOL for other purposes._ One example of this might be a user who posts a "Rate a Buddy" photo and thus allows AIM to post it for other AIM users to vote on it._ Another might be AOL taking an excerpt from a message board posting on a current news issue and highlighting it in a different area of the service.


In a subsequent phone conversation, Weinstein said that AOL does not monitor AIM traffic, and does not store it. A record of an AIM communication is not saved in any storage medium at AOL, he said.

"AOL does not read person-to-person communications," he said flatly.

The key word is "post." Weinstein said an AIM exchange is not considered posting, but a person-to-person communication, which is covered by this part of the AIM terms:

AOL does not read your private online communications when you use any of the communication tools offered as AIM Products. If, however, you use these tools to disclose information about yourself publicly (for example, in chat rooms or online message boards made available by AIM), other online users may obtain access to any information you provide.


It is common for online publishers to say in their terms of service that anything posted in a public forum is available to be used by the publisher -- HoustonChronicle.com's terms of service include that provision, for example.


Weinstein also pointed out this is not new -- the current AIM terms were updated a little over a year ago."

[Hugi]