[Cody Dawg]

What is appropriate punishment in a case like this one?

Man hammers nails into dog's head.

Seriously?

[Randman]

Do the same thing to him. Repeatedly. And to his family and friends (in front of him), if he has any family or friends.

Then feed them to a wild animal.




















And no, I am not joking.

[Psychonaut]

First you must define the rights you believe animals to have against those of humans. Essentialy, do you grant rights solely by the measure of capacity to feel pain? Man can only be punished for violating the rights of others.

Pain on such a scale is inflicted everyday in nature, yet we have no courts prosecuting animals that kill other species. Nor do we charge people with eating meat, by which animals are killed just as "inhumanely." Why, if animals have rights to begin with, are farm animals second class citizens to domesticated animals?

Unfortunately, humans are the only animal we know that can take pleasure in inflicting pain and suffering. The man in this case is obviously mentally sick. He should be given psychiatric treatment, as his actions suggest he is a risk to human life as well.

And Randman, you disgust me. Immensely.
If that's what you seriously believe, then you're the one who needs help, not this guy.

[demograph68]

Cody, do you always react to something by posting about it?

[Cipher13]

Why to his family, Randman? They did nothing wrong (most likely).

Certainly do it to him, though.

[Captain Obvious]

Send him to live in Florida to live with the other nuts

[Randman]

Someone has to be pretty disturbed to do something like. Despite the babble psychonaut said, cruelty towards an innocent is wrong, it doesn't matter if it's human or animal. As supposed higher creatures, we should be able to tell.

Ok, maybe the friends and family comment was too strong. I retract that statement ... unless they knew of the action and tolerated it or supported it in anyway.

and I also think that should be televised. Show a few bastards getting their due comeuppance and a few of these inbred sickos might think twice.


Oh, and another comment to those who think it's ok to do that. Almost every documented case of a serial killer has some instance of animal crulety involved. It doesn't take much for some people to go from a dog to a family.

I sicken you psycho? You should take a look outside the world. Such a disgusting act should be what sickens you.

[Ω]

Whatever they do to him, it should be slooooooow, but immensely painful.

[willed]

Originally posted by Randman:
Someone has to be pretty disturbed to do something like. Despite the babble psychonaut said, cruelty towards an innocent is wrong, it doesn't matter if it's human or animal. As supposed higher creatures, we should be able to tell.

Ok, maybe the friends and family comment was too strong. I retract that statement ... unless they knew of the action and tolerated it or supported it in anyway.

and I also think that should be televised. Show a few bastards getting their due comeuppance and a few of these inbred sickos might think twice.


Oh, and another comment to those who think it's ok to do that. Almost every documented case of a serial killer has some instance of animal crulety involved. It doesn't take much for some people to go from a dog to a family.

I sicken you psycho? You should take a look outside the world. Such a disgusting act should be what sickens you.

Right. So how about you get the death sentence next time you swat a fly? It's an animal isn't it? Or is it simply too 'low' a creature for you to worry about? Perhaps its the fact that insects have far simpler brains? But then what about fish? They have more humanoid brains than insects, but I guess you're not about to advocate the death sentence for fishermen... So unless you're willing to include all animals in your sweeping statements of judgement, you're maintaining double standards, probably brought on by the emotional factor that dogs are so much easier to anthropomorphise than, say, fish or iguanas. So either explain your logic, or stop your ranting which is unintelligent and purely reflexive.

Your other point - about serial killers. You said:
• Many serial killers have indulged in cruelty to animals. Therefore it's only a small step from cruelty to animals to being a serial killer.
I offer you a similar point:
• Many serial killers have been convicted of parking offences, therefore it's only a small step from parking offences to being a serial killer.
You have a problem with your 'therefore'; you're jumping from a statement to a conclusion without anything in between.

For the record, I think the incident reported in the original post is sick and wrong, and that the man should either face criminal charges or be given psychiatric treatment. I do not, though, think that he should be lynched by a bunch of rednecks on TV as this guy suggests. Animal rights are a difficult point for society; it's easy to think that laws should only be made to stop that which harms other people, but then I deplore actions such as the above. There's no easy answer, but the last thing we want is to put animals on the same level as humans.

[effgee]

Originally posted by willed:
... the fact that insects have far simpler brains? ...

Hmmm ... I could think of a couple of bipeds who would consider themselves lucky if their intellectual capacity rivaled that of a common housefly.





And what the heck is up with the Randman?



Wife/gf beat the crap outta you? Pain medication wear off?** Been reading too much George Carlin lately?





(** - seriously though, hope your tooth's getting better)

[Randman]

Actually I did listen to Napalm & Silly Putty (again) a few days ago. And yes, the meds have worn off.

All I'll say to Willed is I don't believe in hunting animal for sport, however if an animal is killed and used for food and other uses, I'm fine with it though I think there are exceptions to the rule (for instance, in Asia I've made a stink at a traditional Chinese wedding about the cruelty in harvesting shark's fin).

The line about bringing humans down to animal level is pretty funny though. Not too many animals do what humans do (to ourselves as well as other animals).

Yes, I do have a soft spot for pets, moreso than many humans I've met in my many travels, that's for sure.

I think what happened was sick and depraved and I for one would not have an issue about that person being tortured as a form of punishment and deterrence. People may not agree with me and people may not like my voicing my (strong) opinion and that's fine. The world is a big enough place to agree to disagree (just wait till I'm king though).

And I don't mind people telling how they think I'm wrong. But I do have issues with people trying to justify such an insane and macabre act.

Also, the parking ticket analogy doesn't hold water. Far more people who don't torture and kill animals and humans get parking tickets than those they do. But not many people who get parking tickets are killers. Most people who are serial killers have tortured animals.

Edit: Reports say the dog will live though it's blinded. Missed its brain from a few mm.

[roberto blanco]

Originally posted by Randman:
Do the same thing to him. Repeatedly.

Then feed him to a wild animal.

fixed™

and

[Psychonaut]

For those of you who advocated doing the same thing to him, answer these questions:

*Do you find anything the least bit wrong with mob justice?
*Do you believe in retributive justice (an eye for an eye) for all crimes committed against humans?
*Do you believe in the death penalty?
*What is your opinion on torture?
*And Abu Ghraib?
*Would you like to see our legal system adopt torture as a regular punishment?
*What is your definition of "cruel and unusual punishment"?

Embrace public stoning and torture for violent crimes or you're a pussy.

[Randman]

Originally posted by Psychonaut:
For those of you who advocated doing the same thing to him, answer these questions:

*Do you find anything the least bit wrong with mob justice?
*Do you believe in retributive justice (an eye for an eye) for all crimes committed against humans?
*Do you believe in the death penalty?
*What is your opinion on torture?
*And Abu Ghraib?
*Would you like to see our legal system adopt torture as a regular punishment?
*What is your definition of "cruel and unusual punishment"?

Embrace public stoning and torture for violent crimes or you're a pussy.
:

Mob justice is wrong. Justice, however, can be harsh depending on the crime. And a crime against decency should count.

Not all crimes but in certain cases, yes. If someone steals, they should have to pay the amount back that they stole. If they take a life, they forfeit theirs. If they hammer a nail into a dog's head, they should be punished. Is sending the bastard to prison and letting him be beaten and raped and possibly infected with a life-consuming disease such as aids your idea of mercy? (Actually that doesn't sound too bad in this case).

Yes. Deterrence can be a factor. Look how few murders and drugs take place in countries such as Singapore which has a low tolerance for such crimes.

When you get down to it, torture can be pretty effective (George Carlin).

Abu was a loss of control and I'm glad that those people involved are getting hard time.

Adopt torture as regular punishment? No. For special cases like this, send them to a country where torture is legal and let them at it.

The public stoning or you're a pussy comment is a little extreme. If you want to discuss the case, stick the facts and don't try to broaden with generalities such as that.

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by Randman:
Mob justice is wrong. Justice, however, can be harsh depending on the crime. And a crime against decency should count.

You're confusing justice with retribution.

[Randman]

In this case, retribution would be justice.

[ghporter]

People who abuse animals often go on to abuse powerless people-children, significant others, the elderly, etc. This particular guy needs to spend some "quality time" in a state correctional institution. It's interesting how many people in such institutions take exception to such abusive behavior and show their displeasure by not being neighborly to their new companions who are sent there for exhibiting such behavior. Pity.

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by Randman:
In this case, retribution would be justice.

The two are mutually exclusive. Our entire judicial system is build upon that understanding.

[Cody Dawg]

Randmann: I'm pretty much on the same side as you are in that this sicko needs to be taught a few lessons.

I'm sure that being left alone in certain areas in the prison population and letting them all know that he's an animal torturer of dogs and see what happens to him.

I was reading once that prisoners despise other prisoners that hurt or kill children, women, or torture dogs.

I know this is extreme, but you know how child molesters have to report to the local police where they are living? I honestly think that animal abusers should have to do the same thing. The community where they are living needs to know exactly where they are at all times. That bastard should never get off probation, ever.

Send him to live in Florida to live with the other nuts.

Captain Obvious, I always look forward to your posts with perverse pleasure.

[DeathToWindows]

Originally posted by ghporter:
People who abuse animals often go on to abuse powerless people-children, significant others, the elderly, etc. This particular guy needs to spend some "quality time" in a state correctional institution. It's interesting how many people in such institutions take exception to such abusive behavior and show their displeasure by not being neighborly to their new companions who are sent there for exhibiting such behavior. Pity.

Yeah, send the bastard to the State Pen so that he can get a beatdown from Bubba. That might just do it.

[Cody Dawg]

I'm not sure that getting beaten up is going to help that sicko, unfortunately.

Anyone that could knowingly and willingly sit and pound nails into another living creature's head is an extremely disturbed individual.

Maybe being beaten up himself is how he got that way, you know?

[ghporter]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
I'm not sure that getting beaten up is going to help that sicko, unfortunately.

Anyone that could knowingly and willingly sit and pound nails into another living creature's head is an extremely disturbed individual.

Maybe being beaten up himself is how he got that way, you know?

You have an excellent point. Many animal abusers have themselves been abused when they were themselves powerless. Being an abused child is a predisposing influence toward being an abuser as an adult.

My suggestion about the "state institution" was not about helping such a person. I don't know if therapy CAN help people in such situations. This guy has gone so far that I don't really care if there's a slight hope he can be helped. I just know that punishing someone for cruelty to animals usually winds up being a farce with little jail time and small fines. A little more jail time in a really unpleasant institution would help make abusing animals less common, and would make abusers MUCH less likely to offend again, since they will KNOW about roommate "Bubba."

[TheBadgerHunter]

The same thing you'd do to someone who had a history or inclination towards abusing people.

[RAILhead]

Prison. Not jail, not a Federal Resort -- make him bust rocks.

Garnishee 20% of his wages for 10 years or so and donate it to the SPCA.

Let him experience some cruel and unusual punishment on par with what he did to the dog.

Remove one of his digits, and we'll make that the new "mark" of an animal abuser. We could do the same for child molesters, too.

Break one of his knees.

[BoomStick]

This is no different than someone hitting a bird with their car and not stopping to try and help it.

This year alone I have rescued several small birds with vehicle related injuries and one Red Tailed Hawk that a lowlife shot because it "was getting his squirrels".


I'd love to take a hammer to the guy that injured the dog in the article.

[TheBadgerHunter]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
Prison. Not jail, not a Federal Resort -- make him bust rocks.

Garnishee 20% of his wages for 10 years or so and donate it to the SPCA.

Let him experience some cruel and unusual punishment on par with what he did to the dog.

Remove one of his digits, and we'll make that the new "mark" of an animal abuser. We could do the same for child molesters, too.

Break one of his knees.

Few good points there. Prison is definitely where he needs to be. If he can do that to an animal its only a matter of time and the right conditions for him to do it to a person.

What I have a problem with is when people jump to mutilation, abuse, etc as some form of skewed justice. My alarm goes off when the suggested punishment is greater than the crime.

[ghporter]

RAILHead, your suggestions would satisfy a lot of people's outrage at this act. But the reality is that most laws consider a pet to be a very low cost asset; a chatel that has not more value than its purchase price. The intangible value of a pet is not at all part of the situation in the eyes of the law.

I work with German Shepherd Dog Rescue of San Antonio, have done volunteer work for the Wild Animal Rescue and Rehabilitation center, and have monitarily supported the Wild Animal Orphanage, all fairly local organizations. In working with them, I've come into contact with a wide variety of animals who have undergone cruel treatment. There are wild cats, like lions and tigers, who have been kept as "pets," but not fed properly; they almost always suffer from dietary calcium deficiencies that make their bones brittle and incidentally they suffer from numerous fractures. There are dogs who have been penned up and left to die in a yard without any food or water, and have finally been impounded by the state once they've been identified and located. There are pit bull dogs who have been bred and chained to be "used" in underground dog fighting (pitts are some of the most loyal and loving pet animals ever, but these ***^#$^#^#%&$%&* dog fight "people" have messed them up to the point that you need to do a LOT of research into a dog's lineage before you can safely even think about buying one).

My personal feeling on the matter is, well it's not pretty. But legally, most jurisdictions can do very little beyond siezing the animal(s). Here in Texas, cruelty, torture, seriously injuring or killing an animal (within a very narrow definition of "domestic animal") is a Class A misdemeanor unless the perpetrator has already been convicted TWICE under the same animal cruelty section of Texas law. See this reference for details. Punishment can include fines up to $4,000 and up to one year in jail. A third offense under that section can earn up to two years in STATE jail and a fine of up to $10,000. Take a look at the Michigan State University animal law web site for a lot more on animal laws. Unfortunately, case law shows that the courts are very inconsistent in how they mete out punishment for violations. This is the part that most bothers me about the whole mess.

[Zimphire]

I can't stand reading or hearing about something like this. Even if it's not on purpose.

[nredman]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
What is appropriate punishment in a case like this one?

Man hammers nails into dog's head.

Seriously?

anyone who would do this to a dog shouldn't be out on the streets - lock his ass up for a few years. glad the dog made it, i hope he gets a great new home with owners who love him.

[SimpleLife]

Slaughterhouse

Slaughterhouse II

Of course, only a deranged person would kil a pet.

There is the difference. Nevertheless, our treatment of animals differ from the type of attribution we project on them. Basically, our respect for life goes like this:

"As long as he is a friend..."

[bubblewrap]

Some people are just plain ****ed up.
This person needs to be removed fromsociety awhile.
And watched very closely.

I too would like to crack this monster over the skull a few times.
But what I want to do and what I would actually do are miles apart.

I don't think any kind of "treatment" will help this sicko.
All the symptoms are there. This is a serial killer in the making.

[Oisín]

Originally posted by willed:
Your other point - about serial killers. You said:
• Many serial killers have indulged in cruelty to animals. Therefore it's only a small step from cruelty to animals to being a serial killer.
I offer you a similar point:
• Many serial killers have been convicted of parking offences, therefore it's only a small step from parking offences to being a serial killer.
You have a problem with your 'therefore'; you're jumping from a statement to a conclusion without anything in between.

Your logic here is flawed.

Indulging in cruelty to animals (or children, or any other living being*) is a crime of violence, power and pain; a sadistic crime. It's about inflicting pain on someone/thing else and watching them/it squirm, and it's about feeling like you're a higher being because of it.

Getting a parking ticket is none of these things. It's a fairly trivial (often even accidental or non-conscious) crime which ultimately causes no specific harm to anyone but your own wallet.

While Randman did jump a bit from statement to conclusion, it is a well-documented fact that many serial killers did 'start out' with animal cruelty. If you have a desire in your mind to cause death and/or inflict pain on other beings, and you lack the mental stopper that tells you that you can't do that and prevents you from doing it, then the first time you try it, you will obviously find a 'safe' victim: one who cannot fight back much, and more importantly, one who will not or cannot tell afterwards. Thus, you choose either young children or animals. After this person realises what a 'kick' it is for them to inflict pain, they feel the need to do it again, but to move up a step, to someone who is closer to being their own equal (or even above them), and that's when you start to have a serial killer. So Randman's point was not wholly unjustified.




*Note that I don't count swatting a fly as 'cruelty', since (normally) it doesn't involve the conscious desire to inflict pain on another living being.

[Psychonaut]

Originally posted by SimpleLife:
Slaughterhouse

Slaughterhouse II

Of course, only a deranged person would kil a pet.

There is the difference. Nevertheless, our treatment of animals differ from the type of attribution we project on them. Basically, our respect for life goes like this:

"As long as he is a friend..."

No one wants to see those pictures, just as no one wants to see how their meat was made. The people of developed and industrial nations have entered a social contract, in which, although they know how their meat is produced, they willingly consent to ignore that fact in conversation, media, and public life in order that they may enjoy a burger. It's very rare that we ever consider the process, and we object when such images are shown to us and label them as gruesome, even though we create the demand for the product. But how dare the same happen to a domesticated animal! Again I ask why, if animals have rights, are farm animals second class citizens to domesticated animals?

But tell what you think about animal rights to the billions of people who must subsist daily on the meat and sale of their livestock, and you'll get spat on and thrown out of their home. You'd deserve it too. (These people are the majority of the world; they're the rule, not the exception.)

My mother has always been the animal lover. I'm not sure I could experience the devotion she feels towards saving animals and making sure they're treated well. I've always thought her efforts are commendable, but I've never understood her way of thinking. For as much as she enjoys animals, she can rarely watch nature documentaries due to the fact of life that animals have to eat, and for most it means eating other animals; she'd recoil in disgust. On the other hand, my mother can enjoy action movies in which human beings are murdered; she'd be on the edge of her seat. And like many of you guys, she would condemn the man in question to her own sense of "justice."

Don't get me wrong, I love my mother, but I believe her regard for animals is a little unbalanced. For me, concern for animals is equitable with concern for the environment. They're good causes in and of themselves, but many times they are abused as a means to an end (PETA, ELF, Greenpeace, etc.) This reflects a lot of what's wrong with animal "rights" organizations: they routinely think of the good of animals and their political agendas at the expense of humanity.

If you guys truly valued humanity, then you'd be showing more concern for the sanity and mental health of this individual, rather than seeing him tortured.

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by SimpleLife:


"As long as he is a friend..."

I grew up on a farm. Anything with a name didn't get eaten.

[Oisín]

Originally posted by Psychonaut:
Again I ask why, if animals have rights, are farm animals second class citizens to domesticated animals?

I agree completely. Why should there be a difference? But obviously, there is. Initially, I suppose you could say that nature (and thus we) justifies the killing of others for consumption, and the thing that goes against nature is the killing/hurting of others for pure pleasure. But then what about swatting a fly, or stepping on a snail (ew, by the way)? They should, technically speaking, also be crimes then. But they're not. It's a double standard, and one that I adhere to myself - I hate flies and I swat them guilt-free, even though I'm not going to eat it. I wouldn't torture a fly, though. Pulling flies' legs off is just pointless and childish cruelty. If I swat it, I swat it, and it's dead immediately.

Personally, I can see nothing wrong with killing an animal for the purpose of eating it (though I don't eat meat myself). It's the way nature works, and has always worked. I can, however, see something wrong with killing or hurting an animal just for the pleasure of doing it, which is what this guy here did to his dog. I can also see something wrong with the fact that so many farm animals are put down in such agonizing ways, instead of simply being killed quickly and painlessly. There's no need to inflict such pain on an animal, just because it's going to die in a minute anyway.

But yeah, as we say up here: "Moral er godt. Dobbeltmoral er dobbelt så godt." [Standards are good. Double standards are doubly good.]

If you guys truly valued humanity, then you'd be showing more concern for the sanity and mental health of this individual, rather than seeing him tortured.

The thirst for revenge is strong in us humans.

[moonmonkey]

Originally posted by Randman:
Someone has to be pretty disturbed to do something like. Despite the babble psychonaut said, cruelty towards an innocent is wrong, it doesn't matter if it's human or animal. As supposed higher creatures, we should be able to tell.

Ok, maybe the friends and family comment was too strong. I retract that statement ... unless they knew of the action and tolerated it or supported it in anyway.

and I also think that should be televised. Show a few bastards getting their due comeuppance and a few of these inbred sickos might think twice.


Oh, and another comment to those who think it's ok to do that. Almost every documented case of a serial killer has some instance of animal crulety involved. It doesn't take much for some people to go from a dog to a family.

I sicken you psycho? You should take a look outside the world. Such a disgusting act should be what sickens you.

Do they televise punishments in Singapore? they stopped doing it in China now.
AXN is not the same.

[benb]

No one has pity for this man? I genuinely hurt for this guy; I realize that you would need to have some horrible things happening with your mind to do something like this. As much as it saddens me to see the dog, I do hope this man will be alright.

Originally posted by BoomStick:
This is no different than someone hitting a bird with their car and not stopping to try and help it.

Well, not quite. I don't think someone who accidently hit a person with their car and drove away would get the same punishment as someone who pounded nails into another person's head.

[ghporter]

Originally posted by Nick:
Well, not quite. I don't think someone who accidently hit a person with their car and drove away would get the same punishment as someone who pounded nails into another person's head.

In fact, it's not appropriate to consider punnishing someone who has accidentally hit any animal if there is a more pressing safety issue with the driver stopping in traffic.

Further, some birds deserve it! There, I said it. About 20 years ago, I had dropped my wife off at her school in North Texas and was driving back home to Central Texas (Wichita Falls and Austin, respectively) when a large black bird (crow? grackle? I don't know) lined up and aimed at my windshield. Suffice to say that upon impact (something over 60mph, since he was going pretty fast on his own) he wasn't the bird he'd been. He was a MESS that I had to find the nearest carwash for! Bird parts EVERYWHERE!

You see, birds are called bird brains for a reason. They're stupid! They don't pay as much attention to hazards like cars and trucks as they do to flocking patterns, so they often flock into traffic. It's not the driver's fault.

On the other hand, several years ago, my family and I were returning home from Fiesta Texas when we noticed what looked like a large bag in the middle of the street. Nope. It was a stunned hawk. We DID recover this bird and found the headquarters of Last Chance Forever, a raptor recovery and rehabilitation organization (I did NOT intend for all the "r's" to show up that way!). It seems that this bird, a juvenile Cooper's Hawk, had been hit by a large vehicle and had broken his wrist. LCF got him treated and helped him recover until he was healthy enough to be released into the wild. We're very glad for him, but it was only chance that we saw him before he'd been run over, and that we had some idea where to take him. Does YOUR vet know anything about birds of prey?

[BoomStick]

I am a wildbird rehab person.

I have a vet that takes care of their wounds and I rehabilitate them until I can return them to the wild or they live with me the rest of their days. The vet knows not to destroy an bird if I can keep it happy in the aviary.

If it is a raptor, once it heals off to Amelia Island it goes for rehab.


So many people put more value on dogs ad cats than our wild feathered friends. Some of us equally value all life.

[ghporter]

Originally posted by BoomStick:
I am a wildbird rehab person....So many people put more value on dogs ad cats than our wild feathered friends. Some of us equally value all life.

How much contact do most people have with any animal other than a cat or a dog? If it had not been for the presentations Last Chance Forever had done at several venues, I would not have known enough to be able to see that what was in the road was a bird. Don't condemn people for not having more experience than they have; help them gain more experience.

I'd hate to see how many people think that milk comes from tank trucks, eggs from refrigerator trucks, and coffee from that cool grinder machine. Now when I was a kid (WAAAYYY back in the early '60s!) my class got to go on field trips to dairies, farms, and other places that taught us where stuff comes from. The dairy visit I remember most was AFTER a visit to a real farm where we saw cows on milking machines. Cows produce milk which goes to dairies to be packaged as milk and cream and so on. People don't get that anymore, and it's their real loss.

[BoomStick]

I was also a kid way back in the early 70's and we lived in the country if not the downright woods, so my pets were wildlife.

I learned how to care for injured and orphaned birds early on.


I would figure people who have bird boxes and feeders in their yards would tend to be less in a hurry and pay more attention than to be yakking on their cellphone while driving.

It just pains me to see something that could have been easily avoided which is way different from an accident.

[Oisín]

Originally posted by ghporter:
Now when I was a kid (WAAAYYY back in the early '60s!) my class got to go on field trips to dairies, farms, and other places that taught us where stuff comes from. The dairy visit I remember most was AFTER a visit to a real farm where we saw cows on milking machines. Cows produce milk which goes to dairies to be packaged as milk and cream and so on. People don't get that anymore, and it's their real loss.

They do here. We still have the trips to dairies, farms, even slaughterhouses. It's all very good fun, except when they make you drink completely freshly milked milk - eww!!! Warm and so fatty, bweurk!