[SteveJobs]

Hey everyone,
I am looking into learning a martial art during the next few years and I'm unsure which. I have done a Judo a few years ago and I found it to be rather boring because it's mostly about understanding rules and execute them at the right moment (as far as I got it, at least). It wasn't so much about inner strength and mental powers, quite in contrary to other martial arts, as far as I have found out. I have looked into Aikido and I found it to be quite interesting. Same for Kung-Fu, I think. I also digged into Tai-Chi a little and it seems to be somewhat more calm and medidative.

So, has anyone experiences with a martial art? I want one in which I am extremely challenged, both my body and my mind. One in which reflexes are as important as physical strength and mental power and control. Is Kung-Fu right? Or rather Aikido? Or rather something completely else? Like Karate?

I am a little helpless, albeit googling on this for some time already.

Steve

[olePigeon]

I would recommend Shotokan + Jiu Jitsu and/or Aikido.

I really enjoyed Shotokan. A very powerful Karate style, focuses on strength. In fixed stance martial arts, Shotokan is the best in my opinion. If you wanna look cool, go for Tae Kwon Do, but it's all but useless in a real fight unless you can find a good teacher OTHER than someone who "trained" at an Ernie Rayes studio (aka West Coast Karate.)

Shotokan is a strong, offensive style, but not much defense outside of basic blocking. So in that aspect I would recommend also learning Jiu Jitsu. The guards and submission holds are invaluable, especially against someone you know can kick your ass in a straight up fight. You'll learn how to guard yourself against attacks and then use your position (usually on the flat of you back as someone tries to tackle and pummel you) to your advantage by strategically placing your arms and legs for a good arm or leg bar, or whatever you can get out on the guy/gal. Aikido is another great defensive style, but usually while you're on your feet. It's great for drawing in your opponent(s) attack, then use their momentum in making a counter-attack or defensive maneuver. Watching an Akido master is also really cool, it's a very fluid form and graceful (to the extent of having 5 people trying and punch/kick you to death.) Very fun to watch.

So that's my suggestion:

Shotokan - Great offensive, lots of power.
Jiu Jitsu - Excellent defensive & submission.
Aikido - Excellent transition offensive/defensive style.

[parallax]

I'd also recommend Jiu-Jitsu... I did both Tae Kwon Do and Jiu-Jitsu for a while. While "practical application" may not be your highest priority, Jiu-Jitsu ranks fairly high up there.

[Millennium]

All martial arts mix inner strength, philosophy, and actual fighting technique to varying degrees. Finding a martial art that's right for you depends largely on what you want to get out of it.

You say you want something very intense on both a mental and physical level, and I'm reading an undercurrent in your words that suggests you'd prefer somewhat more emphasis on the mental aspect of things. Given this, your instincts are right to suggest Aikido (Japanese) and Kung Fu (Chinese); either one should work well.

Tai Chi (Chinese) has a stronger emphasis on the mental aspect than these two do; there is physical activity, some of it quite severe, but that usually comes a bit later in training. If you do decide on Tai Chi, you should try and find a place that teaches Qigong alongside it. The "combination" is actually an older form of the martial art, and it blends fighting techniques with traditional Chinese medicine. The results are... interesting... to say the least.

[Millennium]

Note that this previous post didn't say much about actual power or such, because you didn't indicate a desire for practical self-defense training. All three of the martial arts you selected can be useful in their own context.

One of the biggest "secrets" of the martial arts is that in the end, they all have almost exactly the same "moves". The real difference between martial arts is philosophical; when are certain techniques preferable to others? You can find grappling techniques in Tae Kwon Do, sword forms in Jujutsu, and kicks in Aikijutsu (an older form of Aikido with more of an emphasis on practical combat, rather than sport). Even Kyujutsu -a Japanese martial art focusing on archery- has some punches.

Because of this, it's difficult to go wrong with any martial art, provided you can stick with it long enough. Do keep in mind that no matter what you choose, it will take years before you can actually use the art effectively in combat, so if you're looking for a quick self-defense course then take a quick self-defense course. That doesn't sound like it's what you want, but it is worth mentioning. My first post focused on what I believe would capture your interest most quickly, because it doesn't sound as though actual self-defense ability is an immediate concern. You sound as though you feel you have plenty of time to build up that kind of skill, and that opens up many options for you.

[kido]

i've been practicing aikido for the past 8 years and i really enjoy it. my suggestion would be to not focus so much on which martial art to practice, but to just start practicing. any martial art will take a while before your mind and body will begin to change, and how they change us mostly up to the practitioner, not the art. find something you think is fun and enjoyable and just get started.

kido

[goMac]

I would recommend Aikido. I did it for many years and it is excellent for concentration and balance. It is a very complex but beautiful martial art, making use of momentum and power in a lot of cases.

I eventually dropped because I got tired of teaching the children's classes. : sigh :

[E's Lil Theorem]

I'm currently learning a style called Bak Fu which essentially incorporates both kung fu and karate into one style. In the beginning belts/levels, you're doing a lot of hard style martial arts (karate). As you advance into higher belts/levels, you begin to do more soft/fluid style martial arts (kung fu).

If you want something that will challenge both your mind and body, I'd suggest this style. As a matter of fact, if you're in the Bay Area (East bay), I'd recommend one of our West Wind schools. One thing I like about our system is that there are group classes where you practice your basics and there are also private lessons for all students where you learn different techniques and get a greater understanding of Bak Fu.

If Bak Fu isn't an option for you, I'd suggest either karate or kung fu. They are challenging all around but also applicable in a situation where you have to defend yourself.

[wolfen]

Originally posted by kido:
i've been practicing aikido for the past 8 years and i really enjoy it. my suggestion would be to not focus so much on which martial art to practice, but to just start practicing. any martial art will take a while before your mind and body will begin to change, and how they change us mostly up to the practitioner, not the art. find something you think is fun and enjoyable and just get started.

kido

I agree, though I would definitely vote for Aikido. If I wasn't working on a double hernia I'd probably still be going to Aikido at least once a week.

[bstone]

Shotokan is the way to go, IMO. I've been practicing it for yours. Find a traditional dojo, not one which will merely hand you a belt just because you paid.

[cszar2001]

Aikido and/or Kali

[Gee4orce]

I study Wing Chun, which is a form of Kung Fu. You shouldn't really see Kung Fu as a single martial art, as in effect Kung Fu is just the Chinese phrase for Martial Art (the literal translation is 'hard work' ). Wing Chun is the best Kung Fu, and the best Martial Art - but of course I'm biassed !

Of course, the only way for you to decide what you want to do is try out a few different styles and see what fits. What do you want ? Do you want to compete ? Or do you want a martial art for self defence ? (I don't believe that the two are compatible - competitions implies rules, and rules limit your effectiveness on the street. For instance, a boxer doesn't learn how to use his elbows or headbuts, or how to kick, and so he's limited in a real fight).

Suffice to say that Wing Chun is incredibly effective - so long as it's taught well. Many 'modern' or 'modified' varieties of Wing Chun over-emphasise style and technique - when the 'traditional' flavour of Wing Chun emphasises very direct and efficient attacking techniques. They used to have fights between the various Kung Fu styles in Hong Kong, and Wing Chun used to beat the others - mainly because it favours simple effective attacks like chain punching over fancy overblown techniques of other styles.

Saying all that - the most important thing I think is not the style you learn but who teaches you. If you have a good Sifu then it's better that you learn a less effective style well, than get taught an effective style badly... Believe me - I've seen demos from other Wing Chun schools that I barely recognised as my own art, it was so bastardised.

Most importantly - have fun. Enjoy what you do, or do something else.

[greenamp]

Have you considered Krav Maga?
http://www.kravmaga.com/krav09.html

Not sure if its considered an official "martial art," but it teaches self defense in response to real life, modern scenarios.

[RAILhead]

Origami

[waxcrash]

Originally posted by greenamp:
Have you considered Krav Maga?
http://www.kravmaga.com/krav09.html

Not sure if its considered an official "martial art," but it teaches self defense in response to real life, modern scenarios.

Isn't that what the Israeli army teaches their soldiers?

[budster101]

Whatever they used in Kill Bill I and II. That is some tuff stuff!

My personal preference is a combination of all martial arts. Whatever your oponent uses, use that counterpart. Guns work miracles I hear.

Bruce Lee developed the anti-martial art. He never held fast to any strict rules of engagement. Whatever worked.

Finally, I prefer the "Art of fighting, without fighting".

-Bruce Lee



EDIT:

AIKIDO is my favorite. It's wicked bad, and great for fighting up close. Brazilian Jujitsu is pretty bad as well. Hoyce Grace and his clan are well known in the fighting community for mastering this ver effective style.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by greenamp:
Have you considered Krav Maga?
http://www.kravmaga.com/krav09.html

Not sure if its considered an official "martial art," but it teaches self defense in response to real life, modern scenarios.

Last I heard, most practitioners of Krav Maga preferred the term "unarmed combat style" over "martial art", precisely because KM doesn't tend to bother with philosophical or artistic aspects. Because of that, I would recommend against this particular art for SteveJobs. Although he grew bord with Judo because his instructor over-emphasized the mental aspect, he doesn't want to eschew that part of things entirely.

This said, KM does have some unique things to offer. For example, it does some fascinating things with improvised weapons. It's also a very young style -the founder passed away in 1998- and so it tends to think about things very differently from the more traditional arts.

[E's Lil Theorem]

Originally posted by budster101:
...
Bruce Lee developed the anti-martial art. He never held fast to any strict rules of engagement. Whatever worked.

Finally, I prefer the "Art of fighting, without fighting".

-Bruce Lee

...

Bruce Lee invented his own style. As a matter of fact, that was his "dream," i.e., for you to learn the basics of some style and then modify it based on your needs/wants/skills, etc.

There is a saying in our system (Bak Fu) that goes, "If you walk away from any fight unharmed, that's a fight you won." I haven't been studying in this system for very long, but as far as I can tell, they do a pretty good job of teaching you how to avoid conflicts, i.e., fighting without fighting. However, if you absolutely have to fight, they do a very good job of teaching you how to defend yourself as well.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by E's Lil Theorem:
Bruce Lee invented his own style. As a matter of fact, that was his "dream," i.e., for you to learn the basics of some style and then modify it based on your needs/wants/skills, etc.

Indeed. It's been said that the best martial art is the one you create yourself, because it will be adapted to your own body's strengths and flaws. There's a lot of truth to that. At the same time, jumping from art to art isn't going to get you a very good philosophical background, if that's what you're after.

The best way to go, if you decide to take this route, is to start off by taking an art with a broad base of techniques used by relative beginners, as a "base art", and then take "mix-in" arts to complement it. As far as this goes, Tae Kwon Do makes a decent base, but you need to be very careful about picking a master in this art. TKD claims to be the world's most popular art, and this might actually be true, but with that popularity has come commercialism which can come back to haunt you if you're not careful. Among other things, many masters have watered down the mental aspect to practically nothing. You can find good TKD masters, but you're going to need to look carefully.

[Il Duce]

Another vote for aikido. I've been studying Yoshinkan aikido for a little over a year and I love it. I was actually surprised to see so many people recommending it - a lot of other arts tend to look down on aikido as "not a real martial art".

Other arts that would be worth checking out are wing chun, BJJ, kali / arnise / escrima or silat. Try a few classes out and go with what feels best. Finding a good instructor is probably the most important thing, so make sure you look around (and do some background research if possible).

[greenamp]

[James L]

Hey,

You really need to decide what you want to get out of training, and what style suits you, your body shape and size, etc.

For example, before I settled into what I do now (Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu), I went to Shodan (first degree black belt... i.e, the real beginner level) in Judo, and 1st kyu brown belt (one below shodan) in Aikido.

I found after a while that Judo was way to much of a sport for me, which any martial art that puts that much focus on sparring really is.

I loved Aikido, especially the mental and spiritual aspects of it. I stopped training due to my instructor moving and shutting down the dojo.

I tried Karate (shotokan). I hated it... for me. I love the art. I respect it. BUT, it didn't work for me. No harm, no foul. I still go watch their classes every now and then, as it is a great style for other people.

In the last few years I have really become more and more interested in the historical martial arts. Judo and Aikido (and many styles of Karate) are actually quite young in the grand scheme of things, and many of these styles (such as Judo and Aikido) came about ater the meiji restoration in Japan, and were purposefully designed to remove much of the combative edge to them and put the focus on other aspects.

The art I train in now is a collection of of 9 ryu ha (schools) that are quite old... the oldest going back 1100 years. Due to this, our art comprises nerve attacks, bone attacks, joint manipulation, choking, throwing, groundwork, and a plethora of weaponry including stick weapons (3 foot, 4 foot, and 6 foot staff as well as a short 6 inch stick), bladed weaponry (sword, knife, throwing blades, etc), and flexible weaponry (chains, etc). It is a very comprehensive art that has no point sparring, a lot of spiritual work, etc. We have a fun, relaxed atmosphere in class, and aren't stamping, bowing, grunting, or yelling every 10 seconds.

Conversly, many of the skills learned were designed to fight people in armor, and would have little practical application today.

... mind you, this is true of MANY arts.

My best friend is a submission fighter. He is all about the gym, cross training in multiple arts, working his boxing, thai boxing, brazillian jiu jitsu, etc. He is a great fighter, but in my mind martial arts are a lot more comprehensive than learning how to fight... which is what it is all about for him. He is not really a peaceful person, and is often overly aggressive in his day to day life. I personally think this is a product of the way he trains... but he could just really be a prick!!!

I know very little about martial arts outside of Japan so I won't comment on those. You need to get out there and see what works for you, based on what you want to get out of your training.

For myself, I am fit, feel more than capable of defending myself (and unfortunately have had to put it to the test often at work), but most importantly love my training, my classmates, and feel very relaxed after a good class.

Find what works for you, realize there is no such thing as a best style, and be respectful.

Some great arts have been mentioned, it is simply a matter of finding the one that meets your needs.

Good luck!

James

[wataru]

Gah! "jiu-jitsu" is right up there with "carry-okey," "mittsu-bitchy," "banzai" (for "bonsai") and all the other Japanese words English speakers have butchered over the years. It's jūjutsu (柔術) fer chrissakes!

I'm going to go commit hairy-carry now.

[Tyler McAdams]

I used to be an Instructor at Karate International which teached American Karate (based on Jan Wellendorf's Sanshinkai Karate). I found it very well rounded both mentally an physically. If you are more in to the traditional sport of things you might enjoy Kendo... and if you are looking to find your Ki you might consider checking out the forums at www.bugei.com for further direction. (You can find me there too) I find sword training the most spiritually/mentally focused practice.

[James L]

Originally posted by wataru:
Gah! "jiu-jitsu" is right up there with "carry-okey," "mittsu-bitchy," "banzai" (for "bonsai") and all the other Japanese words English speakers have butchered over the years. It's jūjutsu (柔術) fer chrissakes!

I'm going to go commit hairy-carry now.

I am well aware of how it is spelled, but I used it in the context of Brazillian Jiu jitsu, and unfortunately, that is how they spell it.

Is it right...nope. Did I use it correctly in the context I was discussing? Yup:

http://www.gracieacademy.com/

Now, if I was discussing a Japanese ryu of Jujutsu (Takagi Yoshin Ryu being one of my favourite) than I would spell it the correct way.

So, "Gah" right back atcha!

[wataru]

But it's not just the spelling. The pronunciation is wrong, too. "Jiu-jitsu" mimicks the incorrect pronunciation, so it is wrong in any context, even Brazillian. You cannot romanize 柔術 to "jiu-jitsu." It just doesn't work that way. Sorry.

It's like trying to justify spelling "karaoke" as "carryokee" just because we (mistakenly) pronounce it that way.

[Sandbaggins]

Kajukenbo.

A bastard of a style (literally).

[roberto blanco]

i've tried capoeira and really liked it. one of the toughest workouts ever. if you like music and dance, you might enjoy this very unique "martial" art.

i've also heard "wing-tsun" (is that how you pronounce it? maybe a chinese macnn'er could tell us) kung fu really gets the "job done"...

those two combined and you're pretty much unbeatable, - wether on the dancefloor or in a bar brawl!

[OreoCookie]

If you are interested in mental discipline, I suggest you take a look at kendo.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
...

Aikido is another great defensive style, but usually while you're on your feet. It's great for drawing in your opponent(s) attack, then use their momentum in making a counter-attack or defensive maneuver. Watching an Akido master is also really cool, it's a very fluid form and graceful (to the extent of having 5 people trying and punch/kick you to death.) Very fun to watch.

So that's my suggestion:

Shotokan - Great offensive, lots of power.
Jiu Jitsu - Excellent defensive & submission.
Aikido - Excellent transition offensive/defensive style.

I've seen a Japanese Aikido master, too. He had to do the demonstration with my club's (they also offer other martial arts, mine is judo) with one of our senseis, otherwise the partner would have been seriously hurt. I don't doubt it for a second after what I have seen.

[James L]

Originally posted by wataru:
But it's not just the spelling. The pronunciation is wrong, too. "Jiu-jitsu" mimicks the incorrect pronunciation, so it is wrong in any context, even Brazillian. You cannot romanize 柔術 to "jiu-jitsu." It just doesn't work that way. Sorry.

It's like trying to justify spelling "karaoke" as "carryokee" just because we (mistakenly) pronounce it that way.

I agree with you, but like it or lump it, that is the way they spell it. It has become part of their name (a trademarked name too I would bet):

Gracie Jiu-Jitsu

...whether or not it is correct in regards to the Japanese language is not relevant if it has become part of their name.

Does it bug me? Not really. It is a Brazillian art, and not a Japanese one. They don't claim to be a Japanese art, and whether or not they spell a word that they use in their name correctly or not is neither here nor there to me.... I have better things to do, like focus on my own training.

To me it is like the Beatles incorrectly spelling the word Beetles... whether on purpose or not. I like their music, how they spell the name is not relevant to me.

Now, if someone spelled this:

Takeuchi-ryu jiu jitsu

As opposed to:

Takeuchi-ryu ju-jutsu

...I would view it as a mistake as they are talking about a martial art that is Japanese.

I really don't think we should derail this thread any longer to argue over something we basically agree on (that the correct spelling is "ju jutsu" in the context of Japanese arts, and that Japanese, like EVERY language, is often mangled by people who don't speak it properly). The Gracies chose to spell it "Jiu jitsu" in their name... therefore that is the correct spelling for their name. If it really bothers you I am sure you can contact them through their website.

On the topic of martial arts, there has been very little mentioned here on any Chinese arts.

Are there any people who who train in a Chinese martial art who can share a bit of it?

Cheers,

James

[olePigeon]

Originally posted by bstone:
Shotokan is the way to go, IMO. I've been practicing it for yours. Find a traditional dojo, not one which will merely hand you a belt just because you paid.

I got to train with Sensei Kenneth Funakoshi himself and Sensei Leonard Lafferty (7th Dan, might be 8 by now) out of his dojo in Milpitas, California. I was pretty young at the time, but now I realize how fortunate I was. I mean, who can claim they were taught by the grandson of THE Funakoshi?!

My mom actually got to go to their Hawai'i dojo and do actual wave training. I have pics of it I should scan and post. It's awesome seeing my mom in a her gee at dawn in the ocean waves.

[PBG4 User]

Originally Posted by Millennium

Last I heard, most practitioners of Krav Maga preferred the term "unarmed combat style" over "martial art", precisely because KM doesn't tend to bother with philosophical or artistic aspects. Because of that, I would recommend against this particular art for SteveJobs. Although he grew bord with Judo because his instructor over-emphasized the mental aspect, he doesn't want to eschew that part of things entirely.

This said, KM does have some unique things to offer. For example, it does some fascinating things with improvised weapons. It's also a very young style -the founder passed away in 1998- and so it tends to think about things very differently from the more traditional arts.

I've been taking Krav Maga classes for the last couple of months. There is no mental philosophy or forms/katas involved whatsoever. It's all about, If you are forced into a fight, destroy your opponent and leave before the cops get there. We practice punches, kicks, knees, elbows to soft/sensitive spots; ears, eyes, nose, chin, throat, solar plexus, groin, and knee. We cover defensive tactics like deflecting blows, blocking kicks, breaking choke holds, evading/breaking headlocks, ground attacks/defenses etc.

The classes are a 50-50 split with the first part being intense cardio training and the second part a mixture of sparring and technique. As we learn more technique the sparring gets more intense and less practice-like.