[Spliff]

The Beam in Your Eye

Interesting article. If steroids are cheating, why isn't laser eye surgery cheating?

Excerpts:

If the andro that helped McGwire hit 70 home runs in 1998 was an unnatural, game-altering enhancement, what about his high-powered contact lenses? "Natural" vision is 20/20. McGwire's custom-designed lenses improved his vision to 20/10, which means he could see at a distance of 20 feet what a person with normal, healthy vision could see at 10 feet. Think what a difference that makes in hitting a fastball. Imagine how many games those lenses altered.

You could confiscate McGwire's lenses, but good luck confiscating Woods' lenses. They've been burned into his head. In the late 1990s, both guys wanted stronger muscles and better eyesight. Woods chose weight training and laser surgery on his eyes. McGwire decided eye surgery was too risky and went for andro instead. McGwire ended up with 70 homers and a rebuke from Congress for promoting risky behavior. Woods, who had lost 16 straight tournaments before his surgery, ended up with 20/15 vision and won seven of his next 10 events.

Read the testimonials. At 20/15, Kanell can read the eyes of defensive backs. Tom Lehman, who will lead the U.S. golf team in next year's Ryder Cup, says Lasik improved his ability to "judge distances"—a common benefit, according to the technology's purveyors. Woods says he's "able to see slopes in greens a lot clearer." Woods' eye surgeon told the Los Angeles Times, "Golfers get a different three-dimensional view of the green after LASIK." They "can see the grain" and "small indentations. It's different. Lasik actually produces, instead of a spherical cornea, an aspherical cornea. It may be better than normal vision."

[tooki]

Well, laser eye surgery can't take you beyond the vision abilities that some people have naturally. (20/10 vision is reasonably common.) It's not like you can get 20/0.2 vision or something, while steroids frequently push the body well beyond what is possible without them. (For example, teens who are 350lb hulks -- docs say that is not possible naturally, assuming we're talking about muscle and not fat.)

tooki

[nforcer]

I don't think having surgery, especially eye surgery, is akin to cheating. Being born with a vision problem should not limit what one is able to do. Even if an athlete does not have a vision problem, but just wants to improve his or her vision to 20/10 or whatever, I do not have a problem with that (it's not like pro athletes don't have the money). While vision, strength, and other personal attributes are important in sports, there is no drug or surgery that can replicate skill or quick thinking in a specific situation. Those are things that truly differentiate athletes and make games interesting.

[RonnieoftheRose]

There's no cheating if everyone is doing it in pro sports. And yes, almost everyone is. It's very easy to cycle drugs and beat tests as long as they stay away from drugs that have very long half lives like Nandralone.

I say let them do what they want. It's their risk. Then separate them from natural athletes who aren't as fast or powerful but have an elegance and endurance more worth watching.

Remember the good old days of athletics?

[Kilbey]

When I had my LASIK surgery done I asked the surgeon to try to get me to 20/10. He got me down to 20/15 and I am very glad I asked him to do it.

He'd only guarantee correcting my vision to 20/40.

[The Mick]

I'd say if someone already had 20/20 vision and had laser surgery to get 20/10, that is pretty close to cheating. If you have poor vision already and the surgery results in 20/10, then you just got a little lucky.

[jokell82]

I have 20/10 vision (well 20/11 in one eye, 20/10 in the other), if I played professional sports would it be cheating? Why couldn't someone else wear contact lenses to achieve the same vision that I have naturally?

[Kilbey]

Originally Posted by The Mick

I'd say if someone already had 20/20 vision and had laser surgery to get 20/10, that is pretty close to cheating. If you have poor vision already and the surgery results in 20/10, then you just got a little lucky.

20/20 visions isn't all that great. I know my vision would feel "flawed" if it dropped to 20/20.

[Spliff]

Originally Posted by RonnieoftheRose

There's no cheating if everyone is doing it in pro sports. And yes, almost everyone is. It's very easy to cycle drugs and beat tests as long as they stay away from drugs that have very long half lives like Nandralone.

I say let them do what they want. It's their risk. Then separate them from natural athletes who aren't as fast or powerful but have an elegance and endurance more worth watching.

Remember the good old days of athletics?

I don't really know why steroids are prohibited. If most athletes are already using them secretly, they might as well allow them. Hell, in a couple of decades most pro athletes will probably have genetic enhancements that'll make the debate about steroids seem trivial.

[JHromadka]

Steroids are illegal. Lasik is not. Completely non sequitur logic.

[Spliff]

Originally Posted by JHromadka

Steroids are illegal. Lasik is not. Completely non sequitur logic.

No, it isn't. They both enhance physical performance. The question is whether or not LASIK should be banned in sports like steroids if LASIK gives you an unfair advantage over your competitors the way steroids do.

BTW, are steroids illegal to use among the general population or are they just banned in sports?

[Apple Pro Underwear]

well glasses are allowed in sports. see kareem abdul jabbar.

if by improving your vision to 20/20 is ok. then you can argue improving your vision to 20/10 is ok.

______


performance improving steroids are not allowed in sports [anymore].

so it is not ok for you to improve via drugs.

[TailsToo]

Silly thread - it isn't like the surgery allowed for abilities that others did not have at the risk of their future health.

[JHromadka]

Originally Posted by Spliff

No, it isn't. They both enhance physical performance. The question is whether or not LASIK should be banned in sports like steroids if LASIK gives you an unfair advantage over your competitors the way steroids do.

BTW, are steroids illegal to use among the general population or are they just banned in sports?

Gatorade enhances performance. Going to ban that too? I don't see lasik as an unfair advantage. At worst, it gives you the same eyesight as everyone else. It's also not something that can be repeatedly done over the course of an athlete's career. Maybe 2-3 times before the cornea is too thin to cut.

Certain enhancement drugs are illegal, but others are not. I've heard about people at track meets that got disqualified for taking cold medicine.

[Spliff]

Originally Posted by TailsToo

Silly thread - it isn't like the surgery allowed for abilities that others did not have at the risk of their future health.

Well, I figured if it was good enough for Slate magazine, it would be good enough for the MacNN forums. Guess not.

[Garage81]

im sure an argument about how being born with 20/10 vision is comparable to being born with unnaturally high testosterone levels. lasik gets your vision to 20/10, steroids gets your testosterone levels higher.

[Spliff]

Originally Posted by Garage81

im sure an argument about how being born with 20/10 vision is comparable to being born with unnaturally high testosterone levels. lasik gets your vision to 20/10, steroids gets your testosterone levels higher.

And Kenyans (or is it the Somalians?) are genetically superior long distance runners. Should we ban them? Ideally, athletes for a particular sport should be clones of a single athlete. That way, no competitor has an overt physical advantage.

[macroy]

Lasik is an attempt to bring you close to what you had. Steroids takes you where you've never been (and most likey never will without it). So no. That's like saying that it would be unfair if you under go ANY medical treatment during a game (icing a knee, cortizone shot, taping an ankle etc.).

But as mentioned before - skill and talent is definitely more crucial - to use golf: having the strength to hit the ball 350 yards isn't going to help if you don't have the mechanics to begin with.

On a sort of different note - I find it odd that Lehman mentions judging distance.... since there are so many other ways to judge distance (yardage book, sprinkler heads, pacing the distance, your caddie, etc...). Not to mention knowing the exact distance isn't really going to help you unless you can actually control your yardages.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

macroy.... exactly!


let's all get:
1. steroids
2. lasik surgery


and let's all try and get famous in some sport. unless drinking till you nearly pass out in front of your computer surfing tech sites is now a sport... it' ain't gonna happen.


natural skill and hard work is what gets you there as a pro. lasik is not nearly as bad [cheating wise] as steroids and even steroids is not guarantee of sports performance. [see Jose Canseco]

[Garage81]

didnt we already stand up to steroids in the 80s and realize that natural determination (and training in the siberian mountains) conquers both steroids, and the cold war?

[Moderator]

Wired has a good article on the subject. Going so far as to say soon MLB pitchers may be getting Tommy John surgery without even needing it.

l ethicists are already starting to worry about the implications. Kerry Wood has extra juice on his fastball because of advanced medicine, not his natural abilities.

[RonnieoftheRose]

Originally Posted by Garage81

didnt we already stand up to steroids in the 80s and realize that natural determination (and training in the siberian mountains) conquers both steroids, and the cold war?

The US has always been against steroid use and has never promoted a culture of drugs and massive displays of sex, power and speed.

snip

So remember, say NO to eye correction because it's unAmerican! Everything else is fine.

[ghporter]

There is a profound difference between corrective eye surgery and steroid use. Using steroids is basically getting something for nothing-while the user has to do some work to build muscle mass while using steroids, it is far less taxing than building the same mass honestly. ON THE OTHER HAND, eye surgery is far from "something for nothing." Let me tell you about what you "pay" when you get your eyes recalibrated: it HURTS. Recovery is slow (at least it seems that way) and for me the first two months post surgery (I had PRK) were like walking in a sandstorm without goggles. The payoff of my surgery is that I have about 20/16 vision (yes, they go that far down in measuring it). I put up with a LOT of discomfort while still going about my daily life-I was on active duty in the Air Force at the time, so I was BUSY-and had to make room in my schedule for a lot of follow up care.

Now let's examine the sequellae of laser eye surgery as compared to steroid use. First, as far as can be determined, my eye surgery results are permanent; I won't get any worse beyond the normal aging process, which includes presbyopia (far-sightedness related to age). I am more productive, less hindered in daily living because I no longer need corrective lenses, and thus I enjoy a much better quality of life. I need NO extra care to maintain what I have reached in my vision.

Using steroids to bulk up, on the other hand has many negative sequellae, not the least of which are the possibility of unleashing some nasty cancers in the user, efeminizing the user (bulky guys with little bitty bits!), and a dependence on the steroids to maintain the bulk. Injectable drugs carry a major risk in themselves, so they add to the problem, but orally administered steroids and steroid-like drugs still have all the drawbacks and only ONE benefit: to build a lot of muscle mass fast.

Finally, not "everyone" is using steroids. A few very high profile athletes have/are, but the vast majority don't. Believe it or not, most athletes actually are in their sports because they love the game not just to win. When you get down to it, all physical sports really condense down to a contest between the athlete and his or her own will. Using an artificial means to become stronger cheats the fans AND the athlete, because he or she is no longer striving against his or her will, but rather riding on chemicals to overcome physical challenges.

[Randman]

You can go to the gym and lift weights and get stronger. But performance-enhancing drugs skew that. Some guy who weights 290 with 8% body fat is not normal.

You can wear glasses and you can have corrective eye surgery.

Glasses/lasik correct physical flaws. Steriods/PHD (performance-enhancing drugs) don't.


Aside: When I first saw the headline, I thought Lasik, as in the blood drug used in horse-racing.

[Garage81]

Ronnie,

you owned my sarcasm with your own. dang, good game.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by tooki

Well, laser eye surgery can't take you beyond the vision abilities that some people have naturally. (20/10 vision is reasonably common.) It's not like you can get 20/0.2 vision or something, while steroids frequently push the body well beyond what is possible without them. (For example, teens who are 350lb hulks -- docs say that is not possible naturally, assuming we're talking about muscle and not fat.)

tooki

Bingo