[hudg213]

I assume everyone reading this is a Mac fan. I cannot say I am not. Therefore, I warn you that this post may anger you. Read on.

I don't like to give away personal information on the internet. Therefore, I will just say that I am in a school district that, for the past four years, gave a G3 iBook to every student in the county. In fact, I'm writing this on mine.

Yesterday, this all changed. Our county board voted to give Dells, yes Dells, to every high schooler next year, with the iBooks being phased out. My disbelief could not be contained, as I argued with anyone who believed this change was in any way good.

For some reason, the fact would not leave my mind. Why, on the day of possibly Apple's make-or-break release of their newest operating system, did my lousy county abandon ship and jump onto the Windows platform? One of my teachers even said: "Apples are made for education". This strange coincidence would not leave my head.

I quote our county's press release:

"Both Apple and Dell’s proposals contained a promise to provide 2 percent of the total number of computers to use as loaner laptops, but Dell said it would increase that promise to 5 percent if necessary.

As for software, Morton said everyone he talked to at every level wanted Microsoft Office. The iBooks utilize AppleWorks. “Office will be on every machine,” Morton said."

Our teachers do not realize they are committing technological suicide. As an Apple fan, I am deeply hurt.

[CharlesS]

Because there's no version of Microsoft Office for the Mac.

[Ganesha]

They will need the extra 3% from the number of systems that go down to malware.

[hudg213]

I understand where you're coming from, but I use AppleWorks all the time, and its better than anything I get on my Dell... ahhhh what idiots.

[TheIceMan]

I'm guessing that you're in Henrico County. Although I love Macs and the OS X platform, let me try to come at it from the perspective of the decision maker. Yes, there is MS Office for the Mac, BUT it doesn't come bundled with the iBook line (nor the PowerBooks for that matter). Yeah, we can argue about the pros and cons of PCs vs. Macs, but the egg heads that decide don't know the difference. ALL they see are numbers and if they see that Macs cost more at the beginning than they'll go the other way.

I also work in a school district and believe me when I tell you that ignorance knows no bound. It's unbelieveable the things that they says and/or do. Sometimes, it seems to me that the dumbest people eventually become the boss.

[strictlyplaid]

Sorry to hear about that, but I can definitely see things both ways. On the one hand, students are much more likely to encounter PCs in the work world, they're (marginally) cheaper, and there are fewer compatibility issues. On the other hand, Macs are easier to use and there are absolutely no malware/viruses for them (which is a huge issue for supporting the darn things.)

FWIW, I recommend Macs to my family members with home-user/basic type computer needs, but I'd never give up my Dell and Toshiba for my work. You certainly do have to know something about internet security to make them work reliably.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by TheIceMan

Sometimes, it seems to me that the dumbest people eventually become the boss.

It's the Peter Principle you are witnessing.

[TheIceMan]

TETENAL: Exactly.

[Demonhood]

MS Office doesn't come with a Dell by default either. MS Works does. you have to pay to upgrade to Office.

which people do, because Works is intolerable.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

can i be the voice of reason?

PCs are what most of these kids will probably using when they start working. So let them get used to the troubleshooting, work flow and applications of a PC.

sad that it is this way but it's probably for the best.

[olePigeon]

They're gonna go broke in licensing and support fees, as well as all the money they're going to have to invest in anti-spyware and anti-virus software. Brought this up in the Henrico thread.

http://www.infotoday.com/linkup/lud1...sborough.shtml

A little less than a year old, but you get the picture. About 15 different surveys by different magazines and educational institutes, and Apple was consistently placed as the best product in terms of reliability, satisfaction, usability, and technical support.

What can you say? They're morons. My only comparison is the CSU system here in California where they went broke after doing a similar thing by "standardizing" on Windows PCs and PeopleSoft databases.

[olePigeon]

Double Post.

[Jellytussle]

Originally Posted by Apple Pro Underwear

can i be the voice of reason?

PCs are what most of these kids will probably using when they start working. So let them get used to the troubleshooting, work flow and applications of a PC.

sad that it is this way but it's probably for the best.

For whose best? How about providing a range of IT experiences, using best-of-breed tools, without being driven by mindless dogma? Is high school education in the US simply seen as a 'workers training centre'? Sensible policy and a little vision from educators lets them provide an open, heterogenous computing environment where students can switch from one tool to anthor, regardless of platform, OS X to XP to Linux, securely and seamlessly. It's not that hard, and surely offers a richer learning experience than a pseudo-corporate, just run Office, locked down network, on any platform.

[MilkmanDan]

Will someone think of the children! Please!

[hudg213]

The thing I don't get is how the county is going to keep us from exposing the many flaws in Windows. On our iBooks right now, they have locked down Finder so that we cannot install new programs, and cannot modify certain Preference panes (only 14 panes, and most of them are locked down). We cannot change the background, and certain parts of certain applications are locked (ie. AOL has instant messaging disabled). The thing is, 99% of the hackers in the world focus on Windows, therefore it will be extremely difficult, or even impossible, to stop some kids from hacking into the system. We currently have a HUGE AirPort system set up (1 in each classroom)- but that's not a problem. I just don't see how we can avoid viruses AND hacks AND crashes- our IT people are going to go crazy.

[storer]

I HATE APPLEWORKS! But this is no excuse. What's this new iWork stuff like? What about MS Office for Mac?

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally Posted by Jellytussle

For whose best? How about providing a range of IT experiences, using best-of-breed tools, without being driven by mindless dogma? Is high school education in the US simply seen as a 'workers training centre'? Sensible policy and a little vision from educators lets them provide an open, heterogenous computing environment where students can switch from one tool to anthor, regardless of platform, OS X to XP to Linux, securely and seamlessly. It's not that hard, and surely offers a richer learning experience than a pseudo-corporate, just run Office, locked down network, on any platform.

The skills learned in HS are basic. How to research. How to write a sentence correctly.

A PC is not that bad. I'm using one right now!



However some of the things you speak of are true. The beauracracy is way complicated. As tech becomes common knowledge and tech improves more, I foresee a more seamless solution. However right now the tech is too primal and vulnerable.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by hudg213

The thing I don't get is how the county is going to keep us from exposing the many flaws in Windows.

By locking down Windows even more. They'll no doubt install XP which is significantly easier to administer than Win2K and is a smoother OS. They'll set the machines up so that the students cannot install anything non-trivial, and they will probably also log what the students try to install. They can also lock down access to just about anything they want to, and with Dell's help the machines will be delivered that way.

Really, this is not a security issue. It's a brand issue in a very hot market. Do not dispair. It's not as bad as you think it is. Dell will be busting their buns to make this work for you and your students-or they'll have to surrender the entire Education sector of the market, something they won't do willingly.

Sure, they're not Macs, but Apple didn't provide the better bid. We'll see how it works out, but you shouldn't actually suffer because of this.

By the way, what's happening to all those Macs? If you need a home for them, let me know!

[hudg213]

Glenn-

I wish I knew what was happening to them! I would try to get my hands on them. Thanks for the advice- I know its not as bad as I think. I just don't like Dell- its that simple. Hopefully for us the transition will be smooth.

[The Godfather]

Seems like Apple can only deal with one county every year: last year Henrico,VA this year Cobb, GA.

[chabig]

Originally Posted by strictlyplaid

On the one hand, students are much more likely to encounter PCs in the work world

I realize you're only playing devil's advocate, but this argument is totally irrelevant.

Chris

[chabig]

Originally Posted by Apple Pro Underwear

can i be the voice of reason?

PCs are what most of these kids will probably using when they start working. So let them get used to the troubleshooting, work flow and applications of a PC.

sad that it is this way but it's probably for the best.

Sadly, this is not the voice of reason. Schools are not intended to be little vocational education centers. They are centers for learning, and the tools used should promote that end. Teaching students to troubleshoot Windows applications and system problems is not what our taxes are intended for. I guarantee that any basic computer skills learned on a Mac will transfer to a PC.

A lot of students will wear suits when they enter the business world. Should they then wear suits to school?

A lot of students may drive Lexuses and SUVs when they are adults. Should drivers' education classes use Lexuses and SUVs?

Chris

[ghporter]

Chabig, your point about schools being "centers for learning" is really too idealistic for today's public education system. The idea of public schools is as much "keep the little tykes from becoming a burden on society" as it is "teach them how to learn."

I see secondary schools becoming LESS of a learning environment today than when I attended junior high and high school. Here's an example. I HAD to take a class that taught the basics of personal finance in 8th grade-it was the semester opposite typing class. I learned how a checkbook works and how to manage one, how to fill out my own tax forms correctly (including W4s), how to complete a job application, and even how to write a rèsumé. My son is about to graduate from high school, and I taught him about tax forms, his mother and I taught him about check books, and we've taken turns at job applications. He has had one class-this semester-that addressed rèsumés, and it was in a non-job seeking context.

I don't think kids today are stupid, but I do think that there isn't enough time to teach them what a functioning adult needs to know, and certainly not without sacrificing the knowledges that make functioning adults broad, thinking citizens. Shortcuts like putting computers into the curriculum, making students use them as they will later in life, and coopting the "gee whiz" factor to get some students motivated at all are all necessary strategies today.

[Cipher13]

Sigh. My administrative background is that of a high school system, composed primarily of iBooks (90%), Mac desktops (8%), and Windows laptops and desktops (2%).

Not surprisingly, I spent almost as much time on Windows issues than I did on Mac issues. Not due to any incompetence, though I admit my Windows expertise is very limited... it was because Windows is just not a good operating system. Period. It has its uses, and I just built myself a PC for home use, but overall... it just sucks.

I feel terribly sorry for the system admins in Henrico county who opposed this.

[funkboy]

Can we let Henrico county know how we feel?

[James L]

Why don't we put the focus on Apple for their sh*tty support of the educational community as a whole over the last 10 or 15 years?

Dell put in a better bid, and unfortunately in the real world of fiscal pressures that public school systems are under they went with the better bid. Should we not be mad at Apple for not pursuing this matter further and giving the bid away to Dell?

When I went to school (I am 30) our schools were ALL Macs... end of story. My wife is now a teacher in the same school district I went too, and the district is 90% PC now. Why? Look at the changes over the years in Apples Educational support, hardware discounts, etc.

Do I think Mac is a superior platform... of course I do. I bought my first Mac in 1986. Unfortunately, business is business and if you want to write a letter to anyone, it should be to Apple to put pressure on them to support the educational industry as a whole more.

[Cipher13]

The thing is, up front costs are not the only kind of costs. Maintenance fees, employment of tech support staff, licensing fees, etc... they all add up and totally negate any apparent up-front saving.

[James L]

Originally Posted by Cipher13

The thing is, up front costs are not the only kind of costs. Maintenance fees, employment of tech support staff, licensing fees, etc... they all add up and totally negate any apparent up-front saving.

Depends... people always like to say this when topics like this come up, but many companies build these costs into their long term plans, and are well aware of them when they sign the deal. Also, many providers eat a good chunk of these costs as a trade off for the exposure they get in the free press.

You could very well be correct if the SD didn't do its homework, but if they did, and it really isn't that hard, then they may be well aware of the total cost.