[Hawkeye_a]

So i watched Atlantis:The Lost Empire and Treasure Planet again recently.....and i have to say i actually liked it.
The cell shaded look in Atlantic was realy cool...reminnisent of the old technique, but lookes very sharp and almost computer generated. character disign was unique as well, but the story was kinda lacking.

And i have to admit, after watching Treasure Planet again, i actually like it a lot. The character design is cool, and theres a nice blend of 2D and 3D animation. Obviousl the stroy is great, music is also original and very celtic sounding. I recommend you pick it up if you havent seen it
. I must say i was disappointed with Disney as far as animated movies...but these two seem semi-original, and they do deserve some credit for it.


Cheers.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

didn't disney announce they are giving traditional animated movies up awhile back?


anyway, they should check out some japanese animation and realize they are a decade behind the evolution. look at the love and craftsmanship that goes into a miyazaki movie or even a series like cowboy bebop and then they should go to a corner of their studi and bow their heads in shame.

[Hawkeye_a]

Umm...when it comes to animation styles, i definately prefer Disney/western character design to Japaneses/Anime design.

I have been meaning to watch Spirited away....but in general, most anime just seem to have 'robotic' n jerky moving characters, when compared to Disney's. Im talking about hand drawn animation here of course.

Also.... i appreciate the fact that Disney didnt use a lot of slow motion and flashing lights to get the message across the way Anime does.

But they are 2 distinct styles and you have people who like this or that or both.


So back on topic... what did you guys think of Atlantis and Treasure Planet. unbiased now.....i know we all love Pixar and cant stand Eisner...but i thought these movies were pretty good.

Cheers.

[DeathToWindows]

Originally Posted by Apple Pro Underwear

anyway, they should check out some japanese animation and realize they are a decade behind the evolution. look at the love and craftsmanship that goes into a miyazaki movie or even a series like cowboy bebop and then they should go to a corner of their studi and bow their heads in shame.

Seconded. Disney has lost.

[d0ubled0wn]

I really enjoyed Treasure Planet too. I went in not expecting much and was pleasantly surprised. I certainly hope they do more movies like this. Did this movie do well at the box office? It seems like it was a bit of sleeper... didn't hear much about it.

[Hawkeye_a]

true, it wasnt a big hit. if i were to give a reason, id guess it would have to be poor marketing, cuase the production value was pretty darn good, cant really complain about any aspect of it to be honest.

Then again Disney's strategy under Eisner ws to make as many movies as possible i nthe hopes that a couple become hits. They spread their resources way too thing, instead to dedicating their resources to the good projects like this one. thats my analysis of the situation anyway.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

I have been meaning to watch Spirited away....but in general, most anime just seem to have 'robotic' n jerky moving characters, when compared to Disney's. Im talking about hand drawn animation here of course.

no no no no

what you are watching is Pokemon and the like. most of this anime is fast food animation. it's not great and it's not meant to be because they are the equivalent of American Saturday morning cartoons.

watch Spirited Away and check out the millions of little details in every scene. instead of what Disney does in creating a wisecracking sidekick talking animal in every movie to attempt to entertain a us, take a peek at how miyazaki nails down how the little girl puts on shoes or fixes her ponytail. check out the metaphors he uses in animation that touches some serious issues. nature convservation is a usual topic.

in terms of taking animation to the next level, where has disney been in creating adult oriented material? i'll use cowboy bebep for example because it's popular. in this instance we see adult themes like murder, love, sex, crime and death explored.

Disney makes one kind of movie. They think the medium is only for childen and it shows. It doesn't mean they make horrible movies but you can see that the lack of box office sucess is indicating people are not interested.

[demograph68]

Originally Posted by Apple Pro Underwear

Disney makes one kind of movie. They think the medium is only for childen and it shows. It doesn't mean they make horrible movies but you can see that the lack of box office sucess is indicating people are not interested.

Sin City is from Miramax. Disney owns Miramax. Therefor, Disney can make money off of violent movies while still keeping it's wholesome family/kids image.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Apple Pro Underwear

in terms of taking animation to the next level, where has disney been in creating adult oriented material? i'll use cowboy bebep for example because it's popular. in this instance we see adult themes like murder, love, sex, crime and death explored.

Disney makes one kind of movie. They think the medium is only for childen and it shows. It doesn't mean they make horrible movies but you can see that the lack of box office sucess is indicating people are not interested.

Murder, sex and crime - you don't know very much about the Disney brand, do you? Anything coming from Disney will not contain adult subject matter. Asking Disney to produce such films is similar to asking Apple to produce PCs - either company could produce those things, but they never will.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by Apple Pro Underwear

watch Spirited Away and check out the millions of little details in every scene. instead of what Disney does in creating a wisecracking sidekick talking animal in every movie to attempt to entertain a us, take a peek at how miyazaki nails down how the little girl puts on shoes or fixes her ponytail. check out the metaphors he uses in animation that touches some serious issues. nature convservation is a usual topic.

in terms of taking animation to the next level, where has disney been in creating adult oriented material? i'll use cowboy bebep for example because it's popular. in this instance we see adult themes like murder, love, sex, crime and death explored.

Disney makes one kind of movie. They think the medium is only for childen and it shows. It doesn't mean they make horrible movies but you can see that the lack of box office sucess is indicating people are not interested.

Yeah, i have heard great thing of Spirited Away from many of my friends who are not Anime fans. i plan on watching that movie.

As far as your synopsis of Disney's movie making methods, i have to respectfully disagree with you. Now i know recently Disney's managment has gone astray from Disney's own first principles, but lets not forget which company actually introduced us to this medium and content. They pretty much pioneered this genre(Animated movies), not just with technology, but with animation, characters, music, etc. And i think they do deserve a whole lot of credit for their work. More recently, their busness strategy has dictated a lower grade of quality in favour of quantity (a principle i loathe in any industry), but there's still some talented people here, and many respectable animators in the western hemisphere such Don Bluth (An American Tale, All Dogs Goto Heaven, Titan AE) and Brad Bird(Incredibles, The Iron Giant) launched their careers at Disney.

At this point, i think i can compare Disney to Apple of the early 1990s. Talented people with bad leadership (under Eisner anyway....hopefully that'll change soon seeing as how Eisner has been ousted).

And as far as catering to more adult oriented content.....thats a different pallet in movie making, you are toying with different themes and emotions. Kinda like....if the London Symphony were to start doing techno/dance music. Just wont fit, and probably shouldnt happen. Obviously Pixar has made strides to bridge that gap as well, and they have done it very suttlely, which is very respectful and tasteful imo. But have a disney animated movie with adult themes ? hehe.... no thanks, changing their format (framework for storytelling and character design) is one thing, but i think it's best Disney disney focus on what they do best..

Now i am not a Disney 'fanboy', lord knows they have done a lot of crappy stuff....with merchandizing and ruining franchizes, etc. but i think there's treamondous potential in their animation department, all they are lacking is proper leadership and managment in the animation department anyway.

[iLikebeer]

Originally Posted by Apple Pro Underwear

anyway, they should check out some japanese animation and realize they are a decade behind the evolution. look at the love and craftsmanship that goes into a miyazaki movie or even a series like cowboy bebop and then they should go to a corner of their studi and bow their heads in shame.

Have you seen the preview for Steamboy? From the director of Akira:
http://www.sonypictures.com/movies/steamboy/
Ugh, that animation style reminds me of 5 Lions era Voltron. Talk about a decade behind the evolution. I like Spirited Away and cowboy Bebop, but I don't see how you can argue that all anime has good animation. CB has a good story, but the animation is pretty lame. Same for lots of anime. But in recent history, Disney usually has weak stories, so it's hard to compare.

I haven't seen Treasure Planet or Atlantis, because they looked kind of bland. I guess I'll have to rent them sometime. We are looking forward to seeing Disney's Chicken Little, though Cars looks weak. Dreamworks' Madagascar looks like it could be interesting.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

And as far as catering to more adult oriented content.....thats a different pallet in movie making, you are toying with different themes and emotions. Kinda like....if the London Symphony were to start doing techno/dance music. Just wont fit, and probably shouldnt happen. Obviously Pixar has made strides to bridge that gap as well, and they have done it very suttlely, which is very respectful and tasteful imo. But have a disney animated movie with adult themes ? hehe.... no thanks, changing their format (framework for storytelling and character design) is one thing, but i think it's best Disney disney focus on what they do best..

i'm not talking about adult themes... you know the renaissance when michaelangelo, leonardo and etc moved the chains along. tried something different tand changed the world. disney pioneered the art form and hasn't taken it to it's full potential. in fact, some can say it's over and pixar is leading the next wave of animation.

the way that you refer to "disney movie" in itself is telling on how stuck in the mud they are.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Murder, sex and crime - you don't know very much about the Disney brand, do you? Anything coming from Disney will not contain adult subject matter. Asking Disney to produce such films is similar to asking Apple to produce PCs - either company could produce those things, but they never will.

once again, in reference to disney animation: where is the innovation?

i wasn't specifically talking about adult themes just the willingness to make a cartoon that is different. i suspect they equate cartoon = children and consider live action for adults. to me, thats disrespectful to the medium.

[andi*pandi]

I appreciated the artwork in Treasure Planet, but it was a bit slow. A 10-yr-old I watched it with was visibly bored. Never got to see Atlantis, but was curious.

Disney does indeed have a formula, that they sometimes break in spite of themselves. Hunchback of Notre Dame was on a few weekends ago--and aside from the talking gargoyles--that was a complex piece of work. I'd forgotten.

[meelk]

Atlantis is a complete and total ripoff of an anime called Nadia. I'm not an anime fan of any sort, but the similarities here are simply too numerous to ignore, the character designs especially. This really gives credence to the "Disney rips off everyone" theory.
http://www.thesecretofbluewater.com/atlantis2-i.htm

[Paco500]

i haven't seen Treasure Planet, but Atlantis was ok. Actually, it was dissapointing. I went in thinking it would be total crap, but it wasn't. It was not bad, but it could have been better. It was close to to being a serious animated film that adults could enjoy, but just didn't quite make it. Once I could see it wasn't going to be crap, I was sad that it wasn't great.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally Posted by meelk

Atlantis is a complete and total ripoff of an anime called Nadia. I'm not an anime fan of any sort, but the similarities here are simply too numerous to ignore, the character designs especially. This really gives credence to the "Disney rips off everyone" theory.
http://www.thesecretofbluewater.com/atlantis2-i.htm

holy googly moogly

damn, i was wrong. apparently Disney does watch Anime. with a notepad apparently

[Hawkeye_a]

yeah. i agree thats quite a blatant ripoff.

BUT at the same time....if given the opportunity to choose either one of those films, id still go for Atantis. Why ?

-Lip syncing
-better production values

it is quite a blatant rip off, but u have to admit disney has the above in its favour. having said that, they really do need better leadership to encourage more creativity (in the art side of things anyway)....create some new icons, etc. they seem to have leveled off when it comes to creativity, and i think thats a bad thing.....

[andi*pandi]

that comparison is uncanny.

maybe they learned from this lesson, it's better not to copy, but just get the rights to release/redub the japanese version, like they did with spirited away.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi

that comparison is uncanny.

maybe they learned from this lesson, it's better not to copy, but just get the rights to release/redub the japanese version, like they did with spirited away.

hehe...yeah.but comaring just the style of the movies above....if they had just redubbed the anime...lord know i wouldnt have gone to see it. just cause im not fan of the style in the first place. the characters just look odd and the production value isnt there.

I hope the change in CEOs gets Disney back to its first principles...im optomistic about it.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

i think the nadia movie was quite a few years back. i think the disney atlantis one had like 5-10 years on the jap one right?

in terms of jap style, the look of films like "steamboy" are not by accident. it's made specifically to look like that because it hearkens back to the look of jap classics like astroboy from the 60s i believe. it's sort of like how Powerpuff girls and dexter's lab have that stylized retro look to it.

also, like i said in my first post — didn't Disney abandon traditional animation in favor of a 3-D like a year or so ago? and according to a quick search, YES: http://www.animatedbuzz.com/WB/41.html. but i dont know if this source is reliable.

[legacyb4]

It goes back even to Lion King with the blatant rip of Kimba the White Lion if not further with the storylines...

[MaxPower]

http://www.kimbawlion.com/rant2.htm

Lion King == Kimba White Lion remake with last minute licensing foobar. Pretty funny that Disney's groundbreaking and innovative film, the one that had no human characters in it, was based off of a 1967 Japanese cartoon.

All they need to do is lay off the raping of their vault to produce crappy direct-to-rental sequels business plan and spend that energy on copying Japanese anime

[Hawkeye_a]

wow.... thats pittiful. i thought lion king was an original story from Disney.

But you gotta admit, storyline has almost never been a disney animated movie thing...they used Grim Brothers and other european folktales, along with the Jungle book, Aladdin, and stories written by people outside Disney. Their expertise is animation which is a different ballgame. They do that rather well, when compared to anime imo.

Obviously Pixar is the most balanced of them all, with great storytelling AND animation, which makes it such a great studio.

But yeah Disney animation and art style is still rather unique. i mean how many different ways can you draw an animal ? i prefer the disney style to anime style any day.

I guess when it comes to story telling anime is more original.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

wow.... thats pittiful. i thought lion king was an original story from Disney.

1. Their expertise is animation which is a different ballgame. They do that rather well, when compared to anime imo.

2. I guess when it comes to story telling anime is more original.

HOLY CRAP!!! i can't beleive they did that with the Lion King!!!! Tezuka is a legend in Japan too. That's like ripping off Tolkien!


1. Disney animation is good. Perhaps very good. But I consider it a 1-trick pony. You look at the Disney style and you can pinpoint it as Disney. It's good in a way that they are so consistent because the images feed in the Disney brand.

2. With the original creative story telling comes animation too. Have you ever seen Disney take on a noir vampire hunting thriller? Or intergalactic bounty hunting, 1600s monster hunting? No, so rating Disney is real tough because all Disney outputs is the same looking formulaic stuff. The creative output of japanese animation varies from project to project depending on how the story is told. If Disney broke their own mold and had some movies to prove to me they had some type of versatility then I may think twice but nope.

hawkeye... just wondering what has been your experience with jap animation? becuase if you like animation and have only seen Saturday Morning fare, hop over to Owlboy's thread:

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...ighlight=anime

and rent some of these babies out and have your mind blown.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by Apple Pro Underwear

HOLY CRAP!!! i can't beleive they did that with the Lion King!!!! Tezuka is a legend in Japan too. That's like ripping off Tolkien!


1. Disney animation is good. Perhaps very good. But I consider it a 1-trick pony. You look at the Disney style and you can pinpoint it as Disney. It's good in a way that they are so consistent because the images feed in the Disney brand.

2. With the original creative story telling comes animation too. Have you ever seen Disney take on a noir vampire hunting thriller? Or intergalactic bounty hunting, 1600s monster hunting? No, so rating Disney is real tough because all Disney outputs is the same looking formulaic stuff. The creative output of japanese animation varies from project to project depending on how the story is told. If Disney broke their own mold and had some movies to prove to me they had some type of versatility then I may think twice but nope.

hawkeye... just wondering what has been your experience with jap animation? becuase if you like animation and have only seen Saturday Morning fare, hop over to Owlboy's thread:

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...ighlight=anime

and rent some of these babies out and have your mind blown.

I had a friend who works at Apple try and switch me over... the anime was pretty weird, i dont recall names....one was a stick figured cowboy. and yeah some saturday morning stuff and stuff like giant beasts fighting with robots and stuff like that.

Im going to check out Spirited away, ill see how that goes. But you say that disney sticks to a formula...they probably do....but they have animated a lot of the fairy tales specific to the western hemisphere. In the same way Japanimation is distinctive and can be easily pointed out, when compared to other animation styles. The fact that japaneeses animators use it to tell stories auther than fairytales and folktales, but also horror and adult....dosent really mean all that much. If an animation studio chooses to make a movie, whether fairytale, horror or adult, they can easily find resources to make it a reality. it's just the decision whether or not to make it.

What i am referring to when comparing japanime to western styles is:
-'modelling' and character design. to me all anime girls have the same face. in disney cartoon, eash character has a distinctive face....subtle exagerations necessary to make it in a toon world...a greek nose, a strong chin, etc. In Anime they all tend to look liek this: (bbig head, narrow chin, huge eyes...for girls anyway). Yet in western animation you can tell the difference between sleeping beauty, the little mirmaid, snow white, etc. attention to detail. The same goes for animals.

-Animation, actual movement....in Anime,seems like the characters have like 2 frames to express happiness, one showing all their teeth and the other smiling (no frames in between). if their sad, their mouths are wide open and water profusely comes out of their eyes. when they jump, they body freezes and they float over to where they wanted to go, while the background changes to some kind of space warp of horizontal lines. In Disneys animation, they dont skim on the frames, each emotion smoothly moves from sad to happy and all frames in between. With characters expressing relitavely realistic emotion, and voice acting is perfectly synked, with both emotion and animation...thats good direction.

production values, quality of animation detail of the illustrated characters...i just think there's a lot more effort put into the process at Disney than in Anime.

comparing movies....well ok...kima, that was a 1965 production, right ?

so compare these 2. (Kima 1965, Sword In The Stone 1963(which i own on DVD ))

look at the attention to detail, both characterdesign and fluid animation....of that time period even.

If you want a fair comparison, compare a more recent anime to treasure planet or atlanis, or hercules, etc....

Ill admit the reason i want to check out spirited away, is because it's all hand drawn, the animation looks fluid, and detailes ( i saw something like a flying hairy dog of some kind in the trailer/preview. The story seems pretty original and reminded me of the twilight zone for some reason. hopefully my next post will be after i have watched it. ill prolly rent it out tomorrow .

Cheers.

[Hawkeye_a]

Watched Spirited Away ....and.... WOW !!

Talk about exploiting the medium to the fullest.....wow... there's no other way this story could have been told better than animation the way the dude did it. It hasnt changed my perception of Japanime, but it's convinced me that there are works out there in that genre with a heck of a lot of craftmanship and quality than what ive seen of Anime.

My analysis on the movie....

I'll recommend it to anyone. if your not an Anime fan (like myself) take the risk and rent out this movie, it is worth it !! It's so hard to explain whats going on in that movie.... the logic, storyline, characters are all surreal, and i think the best way to describe it is....like being in a bad dream/nightmare, where nothing makes real sence, but does when your dreaming, and to find a way out you gotta do something that only makes locical sence in your dream.

Production values are extremely high.... character design is so unique and exgagerated... level of detail is exceptional.....backgrounds look like stuff from a canvas/water color painting. Music... very melow/sad almost...and at times reminded me of stuff from Tchaikovsky (Nutcracker suite).

If there's any parallel that can be drawn to western folk tales, it would definately be Alice in Wonderland, in essence(not story). Having said that, if i had been smoking(not cigarettes) before this movie, i would have totally freaked out while watching it.


And thanks for the good discussion guys. feel free to recommend any Japanime movie with similar production values to this movie.....im glad i took another look at the genre.

Cheers

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Princess Mononoke, and any of that guy's other movies are good. I think his name is something Miyazaki. To bring it full circle, I think the studio who produces those movies chose disney to distribute them because of disney's massive resources and influence.

[legacyb4]

Yeah, I was in Japan when Lion King was released and the media had a field day with the comparisions to Kimba.

Hayao Miyazaki, to be exact. He's been in the business practically his whole life. His list of credits makes even the biggest Disney animator look small...

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

So i watched Atlantis:The Lost Empire and Treasure Planet again recently.....and i have to say i actually liked it.
The cell shaded look in Atlantic was realy cool...reminnisent of the old technique, but lookes very sharp and almost computer generated. character disign was unique as well, but the story was kinda lacking.

And i have to admit, after watching Treasure Planet again, i actually like it a lot. The character design is cool, and theres a nice blend of 2D and 3D animation. Obviousl the stroy is great, music is also original and very celtic sounding. I recommend you pick it up if you havent seen it
. I must say i was disappointed with Disney as far as animated movies...but these two seem semi-original, and they do deserve some credit for it.


Cheers.

Careful; saying you like Disney at a Mac forum is almost akin to saying you like Microsoft ...

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Careful; saying you like Disney at a Mac forum is almost akin to saying you like Microsoft ...

Hahahaha....i'd like to think we're a bit more open minded than that. At the very least least Disney made some significant contributions to art and technology. The most 'innovation' to come from Microsoft was inverting the colors on the mouse pointer.