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ambush · May 10, 2005, 06:30 PM

My younger brother (14 on the 5th of this month) tried today to commit suicide... he tried to cut his veins with a knife.

he's at the hospital right now... I think he will survive tho I have no details.

over the last week, he had become very very weird... he fleed from our house....

monday I came home from school and I saw 2 people in the entrance... light was dim so I didn't figure out it was my bro and his stupid punk friend... I thought they were burglars trying to steal my guitar.

they ran out of the house and I saw a note on my father's desk.. it was my bro.. he was like I love you but I'm leaving. I'm in security, I'm love you. Turns out he went to his girlfriend's house... then the police caught him.

Then he went to his mum's house (his mum had told him she didn't want to see him ever again and he lived with my father and us now...) ... he went to school today (who in his right mind would let him go to school alone like that??????? please explain this to me)

he apparently had a suicide pact with a 25 old girl (who's probably a pedophile) ..................

he needs support... he's a special kid but we need to give him more love than we're used to... he needs more love than anyone in the family.. I feel somewhat guilty...

but then his ****ing friends are so ****ed up and he's easy to influence....

and I this afternoon I thought about this.. I woke up and told myself he might try to commit suicide.. then I said "nahhh"... seemed too unreal.

euchomai · May 10, 2005, 06:38 PM

Sorry to hear about that bro... I'll say a prayer for your family.

itistoday · May 10, 2005, 06:42 PM

Try to keep him away from his "friends" and spend more time with him. I hope everything turns out alright.

Ozmodiar · May 10, 2005, 06:54 PM

When you say he's special, do you mean special needs or is he just misunderstood?

Right now he just needs a really positive influence in his life. If that's something you're capable of being, then it's on you for now. If he needs extra help, don't be afraid to get it for him. The most important thing he needs to know right now is that the real world is nothing like that at fourteen years old.

Just be there for him. That's what he needs.

ambush · May 10, 2005, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by Ozmodiar

When you say he's special, do you mean special needs or is he just misunderstood?

Right now he just needs a really positive influence in his life. If that's something you're capable of being, then it's on you for now. If he needs extra help, don't be afraid to get it for him. The most important thing he needs to know right now is that the real world is nothing like that at fourteen years old.

Just be there for him. That's what he needs.

He has learning disabilities...

He's always been "the special one" in our family... he's always craving for attention....
i think he needs psychological help. badly.

I'll try to help him but he obviously doesn't love me as much as his punk friends, I fear... since I'm a "geek" and he's a Punk.. or something

it's so ugly how the young people divide themselves in "style" groups... I can,t stand that. It SOOOO wasn't like that when I was young. You are what you bought... you are what you wear. Can't stand that.

I see it every day at school... can't stand it no more.

Cody Dawg · May 10, 2005, 06:58 PM

That is very sad.

Tell him that you love him and he is important to your life and have him come and live with you wherever you are.

ambush · May 10, 2005, 06:58 PM

Songs of the moment:

The End Of The Line -- The Offspring
The Kids Aren't Alright -- The Offspring

SimpleLife · May 10, 2005, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by ambush

My younger brother (14 on the 5th of this month) tried today to commit suicide... he tried to cut his veins with a knife.

he's at the hospital right now... I think he will survive tho I have no details.

over the last week, he had become very very weird... he fleed from our house....

monday I came home from school and I saw 2 people in the entrance... light was dim so I didn't figure out it was my bro and his stupid punk friend... I thought they were burglars trying to steal my guitar.

they ran out of the house and I saw a note on my father's desk.. it was my bro.. he was like I love you but I'm leaving. I'm in security, I'm love you. Turns out he went to his girlfriend's house... then the police caught him.

Then he went to his mum's house (his mum had told him she didn't want to see him ever again and he lived with my father and us now...) ... he went to school today (who in his right mind would let him go to school alone like that??????? please explain this to me)

he apparently had a suicide pact with a 25 old girl (who's probably a pedophile) ..................

he needs support... he's a special kid but we need to give him more love than we're used to... he needs more love than anyone in the family.. I feel somewhat guilty...

but then his ****ing friends are so ****ed up and he's easy to influence....

and I this afternoon I thought about this.. I woke up and told myself he might try to commit suicide.. then I said "nahhh"... seemed too unreal.

Hey ambush... Sorry to hear that.

Your brother will need most and foremost opportunities to talk. So if he ever does, let him do that and listen. Don't force him to talk; that is the worse to do. Don't try to reason him, judge him or make him feel bad; just be there and listen to him.

Be sure to give him realistic support, i.e., if he needs some, you might want to connect him to people who can help.

Suicide-Action Montreal (crisis line) 514 723-4000. It is free and on 24/7. They know what they talk about and they are very supportive. It is in French and English.

Make sure to tell him that if he ever has intention of harming himself again, that you will not keep it a secret (you don't want that type of secret for yourself ever, believe me!), you will have to ask help from someone else. If he ever informs you of a plan, and a deadline to make it happen, it is better that either you drive him to the hospital, or call 911.

In the meantime, if he wants to talk to someone, and you feel you can do it, then do it, but be honest about your own limitations; you can always help him find someone else.

Check also if your parents have access to an EAP (Employee Assistance Program) through their work benefits; they offer free counselling more often than not.

As for yourself, you need to make sure you keep yourself fine; avoid drinking and partying and try take some time to speak to friends for your own support; having a close one attempting suicide is very taxing and demanding, and you may all (your family, his friends) need some form of support. The school can help, as well as the local CLSC (nos CSS) and some community resources (check with the CLSC of your area, especially the Info-Sant� line).

ambush; accroches-toi. C'est pas facile mais c'est possible de tirer du positif de cette exp�rience. Ton frère peut apprendre beaucoup de cet événement.

Your brother is very much alive, and as paradoxically as it may sound, he probably wants to live very much, but can't stand the pain he feels. Helping him relieve the pain is the solution. Suicide is the end of it all.

I wish you all the best. pm me if you feel the need to; I'll be glad to assist as best I can.

Here is another useful link: If you think about suicide

ambush · May 10, 2005, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by SimpleLife

Hey ambush... Sorry to hear that.

Your brother will need most and foremost opportunities to talk. So if he ever does, let him do that and listen. Don't force him to talk; that is the worse to do. Don't try to reason him, judge him or make him feel bad; just be there and listen to him.

Be sure to give him realistic support, i.e., if he needs some, you might want to connect him to people who can help.

Suicide-Action Montreal (crisis line) 514 723-4000. It is free and on 24/7. They know what they talk about and they are very supportive. It is in French and English.

Make sure to tell him that if he ever has intention of harming himself again, that you will not keep it a secret (you don't want that type of secret for yourself ever, believe me!), you will have to ask help from someone else. If he ever informs you of a plan, and a deadline to make it happen, it is better that either you drive him to the hospital, or call 911.

In the meantime, if he wants to talk to someone, and you feel you can do it, then do it, but be honest about your own limitations; you can always help him find someone else.

Check also if your parents have access to an EAP (Employee Assistance Program) through their work benefits; they offer free counselling more often than not.

As for yourself, you need to make sure you keep yourself fine; avoid drinking and partying and try take some time to speak to friends for your own support; having a close one attempting suicide is very taxing and demanding, and you may all (your family, his friends) need some form of support. The school can help, as well as the local CLSC (nos CSS) and some community resources (check with the CLSC of your area, especially the Info-Sant� line).

ambush; accroches-toi. C'est pas facile mais c'est possible de tirer du positif de cette exp�rience. Ton frère peut apprendre beaucoup de cet événement.

Your brother is very much alive, and as paradoxically as it may sound, he probably wants to live very much, but can't stand the pain he feels. Helping him relieve the pain is the solution. Suicide is the end of it all.

I wish you all the best. pm me if you feel the need to; I'll be glad to assist as best I can.

Here is another useful link: If you think about suicide

merci.. je vais aller �* St-Justine le voir demain...

je vais appliquer tes conseils...

SimpleLife · May 10, 2005, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by ambush

merci.. je vais aller �* St-Justine le voir demain...

je vais appliquer tes conseils...

Bon courage!

ghporter · May 10, 2005, 07:20 PM

If he's at the hospital, there should be someone there already working on a psych consult. This is important! Make sure he speaks with the shrink. It's hard being 14, and when your "friends" are weirdos, it's much harder. Everything looks so difficult because you have no frame of reference, and without experience to show you that there are ways to handle your troubles, they become horrible. Talking is important.

My heart goes out to you and your family, but especially your brother.

SimpleLife · May 10, 2005, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

If he's at the hospital, there should be someone there already working on a psych consult. This is important! Make sure he speaks with the shrink. It's hard being 14, and when your "friends" are weirdos, it's much harder. Everything looks so difficult because you have no frame of reference, and without experience to show you that there are ways to handle your troubles, they become horrible. Talking is important.

My heart goes out to you and your family, but especially your brother.

His brother is at Ste-Justine: it is a Hospital for children. He'll be well taken care for; it is an excellent hospital.

Also, in Quebec, anyone attempting suicide and going in a Hospital will have the visit of either a psychiatrist, a psychologist or a social worker specialized in children. They usually are kept under observation for 24 hours (especially if they attempted).

ManOfSteal · May 10, 2005, 07:33 PM

Yikes, sorry to hear the unfortunate news. Hopefully he'll learn to get through this tough time with the much needed love and support of his family and "good" friends.

brapper · May 10, 2005, 08:46 PM

Good luck to him and you..

Millennium · May 10, 2005, 09:34 PM

Good luck to you both. I'm sorry to hear it's come to that.

My wife (who is helping me on this post) went to a women's college, where she had to deal with suicidal friends a fair amount. What she did for them went as follows (I do not recommend this to you, for reasons discussed below): if a friend decided to attempt suicide again, they had to promise to first contact her and give her one last chance to talk them out of it. In return for this, if she could not talk them out of it after trying her best, she would step back and allow them to do as they wished. If she could talk them out of it, then she'd talked them out of it.

To date, none of the people she's made this promise with have committed suicide, though she has gotten The Call quite a few times. Once, she even had to hold up her end of the promise and step back, though this act in itself snapped that person out of it (the issue at stake was that the person felt a total lack of control over life, which this act disproved). She taught me this, and I would go on to hold two of my own friends to this promise; I have had similar success.

One word of warning: this is hardcore stuff, and very much not for the fainthearted. DO NOT MAKE THIS PROMISE UNLESS YOU ARE CONFIDENT IN YOUR OWN REASONS FOR NOT COMMITTING SUICIDE. There are several reasons for this. First and foremost, you must be confident that you can talk anyone out of this. Otherwise, your promise will cost lives. Second, the people you discuss this with will be those who have thought this through. They will essentially be trying to talk you into suicide. For your own sake, make sure they can't.

If you do not feel ABSOLUTELY confident that you can make this promise with someone, at least don't make the mistake of ever thinking someone is joking. Suicidal impulses are more common than most people realize, and they are not funny. If someone says they are considering suicide, engage them in conversation and if there is any chance that they are not joking then contact a suicide hotline or the appropriate authorities immediately. These appropriate authorities include, but may not be limited to:

Parents
Teachers
Therapists, if there are any (I imagine there will be now, at any rate; find out how to contact this person)
Doctors
As a last resort -and I do mean last resort- the police.

It is a common worry that someone you prevent from committing suicide, however that's accomplished, may be angry with you. Don't worry; they will get over it eventually (assuming they survive long enough). Then again, surviving long enough to get over it is the point of the exercise.

Here's a place where you can find numbers for suicide hotlines: http://suicidehotlines.com or call 1-800-SUICIDE, which is a toll-free number in the US.

Frankly, if you're worried enough to be posting this here, you should probably not attempt that promise at this stage. Take the other routes we've mentioned instead. We're leaving it in only as a matter for discussion, and to show that intent does not always end in suicide. There's no shame in not trying it; after all, it's an extremely serious and probably rash thing to try. Very general advice: never risk anything you can't afford to lose.

Best of luck to all of you.

Zimphire · 06:07 AM

snip

Xeo · 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by Zimphire

Snip

Way to pick the right moment...

invisibleX · 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by Zimphire

Snippage

WTF was that? I know a lot of people think Ambush is immature but could you find a more appropriate place to say this? His brother tries to commit suicide, worse he makes a suicide pact, and you just think of insulting him? Thats disgusting.

OldManMac · 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by Zimphire

Snipped

About what could be expected from you.

Ambush, I'm sorry to hear of your brother. It's hard to give advice, not knowing the details of your situation, but try to be there for him as much as possible, and let him know that you do love him. He's crying out for help, and every effort should be made to let him know that others care.

Zimphire · May 10, 2005, 10:06 PM

Oh come on I was joking.

Maybe it was a bit tasteless.

I wasn't thinking.

I apologize.

Superchicken · May 10, 2005, 10:18 PM

I can't say I know your family or anything like that... but you and your dad if you seriously love him should seriously take a look at both how you treat him and each-other. What you may do that could hurt him, and how you could change. There may be very little there, there may be a lot. But suicidal thoughts stem from depression (no duh) and it's almost always an attempt to get away. Your job now is to figure out why he feels he needs to get away, and HELP! I hope and pray that he doesn't feel that strong of a need to get away from you, but that could be a part of it.
As for his friends, while it is clear that he should not be around these types of people, being around good people at home will help a LOT more. You don't want to push him from having bad friends to no friends, that just will make him feel more alone and desire the bad friends more. You want to help guide him towards good healthy friendships with people who do not think that encouraging these types of thoughts an emotions is a good idea...
If you weren't in quebec I would say try and get him involved in a church youth group... but last I heard the number of churches in quebec is terribly low so... I don't know what to suggest as far as that... but either way you as family have a chance to seriously help him... try to always look at what he does and see the good first, it's super easy to be critical and tell someone they're not good enough. From the sounds of it he's hurt a lot and simply needs genuine love.

Atriot · May 10, 2005, 10:42 PM

Never let down your guard with him, even when it seems he's doing better than ever. I used volunteer as a Crisis Intervention worker and the times most often when someone would take their own lifes would be when everything would seem as if it was on the up and up. Clinical help for him would be the way to go, Good luck.

ambush · May 11, 2005, 12:46 AM

I really have 0 information on his condition right now... it stresses me. I'll be at the hospital tomorrow morning though. I wonder what he's thinking... is he regretting it or...

guess I'll see tomorrow.... I'll just bring him something he loves. Like poutine. Oh wait the hospital staff will kill me...

Superchicken · May 11, 2005, 02:16 AM

By the was was this a virtical slash or a horizontal slash? Most people know horizontal wont' kill em.

Ω · May 11, 2005, 02:40 AM

Originally Posted by Superchicken

By the was was this a virtical slash or a horizontal slash? Most people know horizontal wont' kill em.

Does it really matter?

Either way he needs help, not an examination of his technique.

Hope all goes well ambush.

Randman · May 11, 2005, 03:12 AM

Actually, it can matter. A horizontal cut often means that the person had no real intention of a suicide try but rather is trying to elicit attention and feelings of sorrow in whatever way they can (the thought that any attention, even negative, is better than none).

That can then impact the direction a trained and professional counsellor goes in working with the person.

That said, my feelings also go out to you and your brother and your family. It sounds as if you are being pretty stable and that's a good thing. Don't lose faith in yourself, it may be difficult but you may need to be strong for you and your brother.

All the best.

SimpleLife · May 11, 2005, 06:00 AM

Originally Posted by Randman

Actually, it can matter. A horizontal cut often means that the person had no real intention of a suicide try but rather is trying to elicit attention and feelings of sorrow in whatever way they can (the thought that any attention, even negative, is better than none).

That can then impact the direction a trained and professional counsellor goes in working with the person.

That said, my feelings also go out to you and your brother and your family. It sounds as if you are being pretty stable and that's a good thing. Don't lose faith in yourself, it may be difficult but you may need to be strong for you and your brother.

All the best.

The problem is in the interpretation of the act without knowing what he really had in mind.

In the meantime, the intent was there, and cannot be trivialized with theories and what-might-have-been or "what he tried to say". As you said the professional assisting his brother will help, but being one of those myself, having worked thousands of cases with suicidal ideations, or post attempts, or investigated a few post-mortems, it is the intent that matters. How they attempt tells more of the level of despair and determination to end the suffering.

Before we can lecture kids about how to elicit attention the proper way (which is going to create more bad self-esteem, which they do not need), we need to help them understand that:

suicide is not a solution and there is always hope by seeking help and we should encourage them to never give up the search for help and solutions.

Truth of the matter is that people attempting suicide have higher chances of attempting again. Whether they just sent a message on their first attempt or not, the second time the message may be "stronger", which happens a lot when the people around that person trivialize the attempt.

NEVER trivialize the attempt. Conversely, using "suicide" as a joke is not recommended, ever.

Randman, I am not judging you on this, but I had the obligation to clarify, in the context of this thread, the importance of taking suicide at the first degree.

Randman · May 11, 2005, 01:46 PM

I agree. I was just expanding on Super's comment, which Omega questioned, hence my mentioning the professional would likely factor that into the situation.

selowitch · May 11, 2005, 01:48 PM

Seek professional help immediately, obviously. Good luck, and good for you being a caring brother. This kid is actually lucky to have somebody who cares about him.

Severed Hand of Skywalker · May 11, 2005, 02:15 PM

Poor guy. It sounds like he needs serious counseling and perhaps anti-depressants.

Superchicken · May 11, 2005, 03:13 PM

SimpleLife neither Randman nor myself were trivializing the attempt. I would never do that, I personally tried hypothermia in a frozen over pool (That said, mid march the ice is still FREAKING THICK). That said, a horizontal cut is closer to meaning "I have no idea what's going on in my life, I'm scared, I want out, somebody help!" a vertical cut means, "I'm done, I've tried, I give up I'm gone."
A horizontal cut unless the kid really hasn't done his research is only very strong self mutilation... that said he's been hospitalized so I'm guessing the cut with vertical up the artery.
There are two types of suicidal people, the ones who want out, and the ones who want to die. One you don't have to be afraid of jumping off a random bridge, one you do.

ThinkInsane · May 11, 2005, 04:18 PM

It doesn't matter if it was vertical or horizontal, unless you saw damn ner all the way through your wrist, it's it's not going to kill you. We see litterally thousands of wrist slashings at my job a year. Our doctor's are relieved when people come in with cut wrists, because their chances of doing lasting harm are far less than the people that overdose. What matters is the intention, not the way it was done. The kid needs help, and I'm sure that now he'll get it.

Ambush and I rarely see eye to eye, but I wish the best for him and his family. I hope all turns out for the best kid.

SimpleLife · May 11, 2005, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane

It doesn't matter if it was vertical or horizontal, unless you saw damn ner all the way through your wrist, it's it's not going to kill you. We see litterally thousands of wrist slashings at my job a year. Our doctor's are relieved when people come in with cut wrists, because their chances of doing lasting harm are far less than the people that overdose. What matters is the intention, not the way it was done. The kid needs help, and I'm sure that now he'll get it.

Ambush and I rarely see eye to eye, but I wish the best for him and his family. I hope all turns out for the best kid.

I apologize, for I was not looking at starting a debate on whom is "really suicidal" or not.

Thank you ThinkInsane for your post, for it probably better conveys my meaning; the intent is what counts.

I do not want to lecture anyone on what is proper to do, but it is important to remember that suicide comes as a strategy to end the pain. The message part is often a myth, although when it happens, and the suicide is complete (i.e. the person is dead, rather than the suicide is successful, which gives a positive side to it) the reasons for the suicide are useless because it is then too late.

Randman, Superchicken, you do not have to justify yourselves; there is nothing wrong in what you said, but in the context of suicide, we can't take chances, and discussing on probable reasons and give them a value in terms of dangerosity is too often misleading for it leads people to believe an attempt is sometimes "just a message".

It is exactly then that we get caught by surprised with a deadly message.

I once had to do a post-mortem investigation with a child; nobody believed him until they found him and it was too late. You cannot imagine the life of that child prior to the suicide. Worse, unplanned suicide, are the most terrible, because there are no signs for it; I have had cases of teenagers that had a flash in their mind of hurting themselves and they did, unable to understand why they did. This may mean that the idea of suicide is so strongly ingrained in some areas that it has almost the value of an afterthought...

Nobody wants to be caught with the guilt that follows thoughts like "I just thought he was sending a message".

I am writing this with the hope it will help, not to judge or be demeaning towards any posters here in this thread. We have various opinions on various topics and it is OK to disagree. In my case, suicide and human misery is a job that pays me and there is nothing funny about it, except when people leave happier or at least stronger about their will to live.

I suggest to anyone unsure or with the smallest interest in this matter to go and take a course or a seminar on Suicide Prevention; you have no idea how much good you can provide only through the understanding you get from people who attempted and those who try to help them. Sometimes, the training is free, sometimes, the fees pay to sustain a crisis line where volunteers do their best...

Hope this helps, sincerily,

ASIMO · May 11, 2005, 06:11 PM

Tell him that if he tries to commit suicide, again, you will kill him.

And appear angry when you say it. Maybe grunt a little.

ironknee · May 11, 2005, 06:12 PM

ambush sorry to hear that...it's a big mental blow for everyone involved so u might be feeling wierd...u should also talk to people

i'd say this is a big problem:

Originally Posted by ambush

Then he went to his mum's house (his mum had told him she didn't want to see him ever again and he lived with my father and us now...)

Superchicken · May 11, 2005, 11:22 PM

Sorry but I work with teenagers on a regular basis, understanding how suicidal and in what way someone is is huge in helping them. I'm sure nobody would advocate taking suicidal thoughts lightly... but there are lots off kids who are suicidal or will say they've been who are not that deep and will get out of it just fine. That said that does not sound like the case with Ambush's bro.

ThinkInsane · May 11, 2005, 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by Superchicken

Sorry but I work with teenagers on a regular basis, understanding how suicidal and in what way someone is is huge in helping them. I'm sure nobody would advocate taking suicidal thoughts lightly... but there are lots off kids who are suicidal or will say they've been who are not that deep and will get out of it just fine. That said that does not sound like the case with Ambush's bro.

And I deal with an average of 6,000 attempted suicides a year, and I can tell you that most of the suicide attempts that are successful are from people doing the "cry for help" routine and end up succeeding. You're "They'll get out of it just fine" theory doesn't fly when a kid takes a massive overdose of Tylenol because they think it won't really hurt them, and then they spend the next six days having their organs shut down one by one until they are dead. If they're lucky, they maybe get to spend three or four days getting pumped full of mucamist maybe get away with just having liver problems when they get older.

The only intentional suicides that I see that are successful are people that no one ever had any reason to think they were going to do something, and they don't mess around with their wrists, they use a shotgun, they take a header off the sky deck at Carousel Mall (a popular one around here, for god knows what reason), they drive their cars into a tree at 120 miles per hour, or they hang themselves. But that doesn't mean they are the only successful suicides, and for that reason alone, your attitude is pretty naive, and I would strongly recommend that you get some training if you are working with kids that are at risk for such for such ideation. Any suicidal inclination, especially in teens, is dangerous because of the unintended consequences.

Not to mention how annoying it is for someone to armchair quarterback to professionals working in the field based on volunteering a couple of hours a week to work with teens. And that thing about jumping at the mall I mentioned above? The last one had been discharged from our facility two hours previous by a psychiatrist with 30 years experience in emergency psych. Our evaluation process consists of intake with a psychiatric RN, evaluation by a Licensed Clinical Social Worker, and final disposition by a Psychiatrist. If they got caught off guard, don't fool yourself into thinking you know what's "really suicidal", because you might not be too happy when you pick up the paper the next morning.

Ambush, care to fill us in on what's happening with your brother? A lot of people are sending good thoughts your way, so when you get a chance, let us know how it goes.

SimpleLife · May 12, 2005, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by Superchicken

but there are lots off kids who are suicidal or will say they've been who are not that deep and will get out of it just fine.

Superchicken, thank you for responding, and let me congratulate you for your involvement with teenagers; they need a lot of support and it is clear you have commitment to assist them. Thank you for that. Let me remind you that many impressionable teenagers are also reading these board, and they expect a clear understanding on such a dramatic topic, since teenagers nowadays, have more chances than not to be in contact with a person having suicidal thoughts...

A clear understanding and a good idea of what to do. Right?

Somehow, I feel like you are trying to tell ambush or others that having suicidal ideas does not mean people will actually do it, or that the type of attempt may actually reveal the real intent (whether it is to really die or to ask for atention).

The problem is, as ThinkInsane pointed out, that to understand what people really have in mind, you have to be in their head. Truth is, we never know what people's real intentions are. You do not know their history, the things they were submitted to, the things they saw, the things they were told. Maybe they attempted before? If this is the case, the risk of recidive is higher. But what if you do not know of people's past history? How can you be sure it is only a message? This plays a great deal in the motivation to act. Think of it as the tip of an iceberg which 99% is submerged under mirky, opaque water.

Because suicide has more often than enough definitive consequences, from which we cannot return, we cannot afford to take the chance of considering any suggestions of suicide as a passing thing, or as "just a message" from which they will return fine. That is simply because such a message carries far more than we can imagine.

In the case of ambush's brother, we may never know what he had in mind, because he may never want us to know, he may never want to tell anyone. That is reality, that is the truth, and that will not help anyone unless the people who work with him have a strong feel of confidence about him, and also mostly, how the family will be supportive. Which is not easy, but can be done.

Suicide Statistics

The World Health Organization estimates that in the year 2000 approximately one million people will die from suicide. A global mortality rate of 16 per 100,000. One death every 40 seconds.

The WHO further reports that:

In the last 45 years suicide rates have increased by 60% worldwide. Suicide is now among the three leading causes of death among those aged 15-44 (both sexes). Suicide attempts are up to 20 times more frequent than completed suicides.

Although suicide rates have traditionally been highest among elderly males, rates among young people have been increasing to such an extent that they are now the group at highest risk in a third of all countries.

Mental disorders (particularly depression and substance abuse) are associated with more than 90% of all cases of suicide. However, suicide results from many complex sociocultural factors and is more likely to occur during periods of socioeconomic, family and individual crisis (e.g. loss of a loved one, employment, honour).

In the US, the Centers for Disease Control reports that:

More people die from suicide than from homicide. In 1997, there were 1.5 times as many suicides as homicides.

Overall, suicide is the eighth leading cause of death for all Americans, and is the third leading cause of death for young people aged 15-24.

Males are four times more likely to die from suicide than are females. However, females are more likely to attempt suicide than are males.

20 more attempts than completed suicide. If males die more often than females it is because of more violent instruments to kill themselves with.

That is often a lot more pain than a solution: this means that for the people who will have attempted, the self-esteem issues (now people know they tried which warrants lots of looks, especially from the loved ones), the shame (being unable to do something, especially from other's points of view, suicide seems so easy, especially with the movies where these were shown) and previous issues leading to suicide still unresolved... all of these add up to the load of sadness and depression that already was.

I just want to end this post with something constructive for everyone. If someone comes to you with suicide ideation (like: "I feel like life is not worth it", or "I am leaving now but I may never come back...") please remember that's the message, and you can do something about it:

1) tell that person you care for what he/she is going through and ask if he/she thinks about suicide. If yes;
2) ask if they have a plan. if yes;
3) tell that person that you cannot keep this for yourself and you feel you need to ask for help for that person.
4) never promise to keep it secret
5) seek the help of an adult, but preferably, a teacher, a school counsellor, doctor, nurse, the parents, or the police or 911 if the person has a plan.

If they do not have a plan, it is better you tell that person you can't keep the secret and you will ask for help for that person. Offer to accompany. If that person refuses, go get someone's assistance.

As Millenium pointed before, that person may get angry at you, but better that than dead, right?

Hope this helps, sincerily.

Athens · May 12, 2005, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by Zimphire

Oh come on I was joking.

Maybe it was a bit tasteless.

I wasn't thinking.

I apologize.

WOW im printing this out and framing it lol he apologized. Serious, the number one cause of death in the 25-30 group, and 2nd in the 15 to 25 group.

Weyland-Yutani · May 12, 2005, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by Randman

Actually, it can matter. A horizontal cut often means that the person had no real intention of a suicide try but rather is trying to elicit attention and feelings of sorrow in whatever way they can (the thought that any attention, even negative, is better than none).

..and sometimes the person just doesn't know any better.

Buena suerte ambush.

ambush · May 12, 2005, 08:43 AM

He's out of the hospital now... I think he's up for a major change in his life... that includes more discipline, etc. He's going well. He obviously had no intent to end his life....

I think the music he listens to (Satanistc black/death/whatever metal something) banalizes suicide.. this is bad... like even his role models committed suicide.... I hope he stops listening to this.

I can't wait to be back to normal again... Thank you all!

Zimphire · May 12, 2005, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by Athens

WOW im printing this out and framing it lol he apologized.

Eh, I have on many occasions. I was in the wrong here.

ThinkInsane · May 12, 2005, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by ambush

He's out of the hospital now... I think he's up for a major change in his life... that includes more discipline, etc. He's going well. He obviously had no intent to end his life....

I think the music he listens to (Satanistc black/death/whatever metal something) banalizes suicide.. this is bad... like even his role models committed suicide.... I hope he stops listening to this.

I can't wait to be back to normal again... Thank you all!

I'm glad to hear that. Keep in mind that as his big brother, there are lots of opportunities for you to become the role model in his life rather than some stoned dick with a screechy set of vocal cords. If you and your dad and the rest of your family become an active part of his treatment, if you make it absolutely clear how much he means to you all, it'll go a long way in helping with his recovery.

Kilbey · May 12, 2005, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by Athens

WOW im printing this out and framing it lol he apologized. Serious, the number one cause of death in the 25-30 group, and 2nd in the 15 to 25 group.

In the USA it's 5th for the 25-44 year old bracket. link

And 3rd for the 15-24 year old age bracket.
link.

SimpleLife · May 12, 2005, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by ambush

He's out of the hospital now... I think he's up for a major change in his life... that includes more discipline, etc. He's going well. He obviously had no intent to end his life....

I think the music he listens to (Satanistc black/death/whatever metal something) banalizes suicide.. this is bad... like even his role models committed suicide.... I hope he stops listening to this.

I can't wait to be back to normal again... Thank you all!

Hey ambush, I am really glad he is better.

About the music, I think it is too easy to blame it as a single factor. Before you judge, learn to listen. To him. You might be in for a surprise...

Maybe one day you will know. Maybe one day he will tell. Until then, that's his and only when he will be ready he will talk. It is very important to respect people for who they are, instead of pushing them into what we think they should be; that is most of the challenge for teenagers, and why they often get more confused.

For us to show up as model (being the best we can be) is what they need, instead of pushing them into something they do not recognize themselves in is counter-productive.

Please be very careful and avoid speculating; be supportive of him, reward the nice stuff he does and ignore most of the bad ones (unless it is dangerous to himself or anyone else) and mostly, just be there.

Anyway. La Vie continue...

ghporter · May 12, 2005, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by Kilbey

In the USA it's 5th for the 25-44 year old bracket. link

And 3rd for the 15-24 year old age bracket.
link.

The only problem with these stats is that they only count verifiable suicides. How many kids that smash themselves into jelly on a bridge abutment actually intended to do that? How many other "accidents" were no accident at all? It is impossible to tell if the individual didn't leave a pretty definitive note.

A guy I went to high school with had money and relationship troubles a few years after we graduated. He died in a one-car accident. What does that say to you?

In the Air Force, suicide is a major problem. A kid that worked for me tried it-Motrin and Nyquil, in large quantities. He almost succeeded, too. While we got lots of training on how to look for signs and what to do when we see them, it doesn't always help. I had identified this kid as a risk to EVERYONE in my chain of command, but there wasn't anything we could legally do-it is not legal to have someone incarcerated because you think he's going to hurt himself.

The point is that everyone around a person needs to get involved when they see that person change. Don't let it go and hope he'll snap out of it. Don't wait for someone else to do something, DO SOMETHING YOURSELF, NOW! Ask if the person is thinking about hurting himself. That does not "put the idea in his head," contrary to what a lot of people might think. It does show that you care.

Superchicken · May 12, 2005, 09:45 PM

By the way... today we had an intervention with a girl in our youth group comes form a seriously FUBARed family... anyway I had a note written to me by her that was blatantly suicidal in nature, and so we picked her up at school today because I wasn't even sure she had another day left in her. But we ate supper with her and talked a lot. And we're arranging a short term solution with a couple in the church who would be a SUPER influence on her (Think most accepting and genuinely loving woman while still never letting you know that she will let you kid yourself into being less than you can be, and her husband who's just great too).
She's at home tonight which I'm a bit scared about, but I think she knows things are gona get better, and we'll be working with her over the next day but I really want to get her out of the house she's in right now... abusive parents etc... she'll probably be spending the week end with this family, and probably longer.

Superchicken · May 12, 2005, 09:51 PM

And by the way ThinkInsane I never said cry for helpers aren't serious. They would also largely fall into my second category. Suicidal thoughts are often simply the result of temporary depression. These come and go for a lot of people and we never even hear about it. That said there is the flipside that we hear more about where kids actually do do something where you would see them. But after having worked with teenagers for a long time... a LARGE chunk of em go through depression and with it suicidal thoughts... however most of those will never get to the point where they do anything but lay in bed and say "I'd like to die now". How many people when they break up with people feel that way?
There are lots of kids who go through junk, the important thing is being there for them when they're going through it, and then being there to help them not go any further and fine healthier ways to deal with their pain.

Athens · May 13, 2005, 01:35 AM

Originally Posted by Zimphire

Eh, I have on many occasions. I was in the wrong here.

it takes a big man to admit being wrong, just shows you do have a good charactor.

SimpleLife · May 13, 2005, 05:23 AM

Originally Posted by Superchicken

By the way... today we had an intervention with a girl in our youth group comes form a seriously FUBARed family... anyway I had a note written to me by her that was blatantly suicidal in nature, and so we picked her up at school today because I wasn't even sure she had another day left in her. But we ate supper with her and talked a lot. And we're arranging a short term solution with a couple in the church who would be a SUPER influence on her (Think most accepting and genuinely loving woman while still never letting you know that she will let you kid yourself into being less than you can be, and her husband who's just great too).
She's at home tonight which I'm a bit scared about, but I think she knows things are gona get better, and we'll be working with her over the next day but I really want to get her out of the house she's in right now... abusive parents etc... she'll probably be spending the week end with this family, and probably longer.

How are you going to get her out of her house?

I am concerned about this case, for you do not provide much information, yet enough to create concerns...

She did a note that led you to believe she was suicidal; is there a plan? Did she think of a way to do it? Are there means available? Are they accesible? Has anyone of the foster family been informed about that and did they take precautions so that the means to suicide are away from her? Has she been seen by a doctor for an evaluation?

How certain are you she is victim of abuse in her family? If she is away from her parents, did they give consent to this? If the family is abusive, has C.A.S. been informed of this?

I suppose you are aware that C.A.S. si supposed to assist families where children are abusive by 1) protect the children and 2) making sure parents do what they have to do to resolve their issues to facilitate the return of their child in secure setting...

Removing the children on your own, without informing autorities may actually be worse...

As I said in the beginning of this post, you give too much and yet not enough not to be concerned about this.