[Cody Dawg]

Link

As if dissecting a live dog in front of a classroom of kids isn't bad enough, he plans to do it again - and the school principal approves!



This is about the only time you'll hear me say this, but I hope PETA targets this guy and the school principal too.

[sideus]

No problems with it here. Dog was going to be euthanized anyway, why not learn from the experience.

[Cody Dawg]

It will be interesting to see the responses here. I think it's wrong.

I think it's wrong from the standpoint that we don't NEED to see HOW a dog's intestine's work, but it's also wrong because kids are being subjected to it. I don't see the learning value in it. As the article states, kids were horrified by it. I cannot even imagine being in a class where a dog is opened up in front of the class then killed afterwards in front of the class.

You think it's okay to torture the dog that way?

So, sideus, I can assume from your response that you think it's fine and dandy to watch an animal DISSECTED WHILE ALIVE? You'd be okay with your kids watching that also? And then watching the dog die?

Hmmm...

Okay.

[Ω]

Not pretty, but the dog was sedated, and to be put down.

Would I like to be in the class? No.
Do I approve? No.
Do I accept it is valid learning experience? Yes.

The only thing I hope is that the students really learn something from it and it is not a wasted exercise.

[Cody Dawg]

I can see it as a "learning experience" when the kids are OVER 18.

College, MAYBE.

Medical school. PROBABLY.

But, high school? NO.

[Cody Dawg]

I just had Matt Drudge put it up on his site also.

It's disgusting.

[sideus]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I think it's wrong from the standpoint that we don't NEED to see HOW a dog's intestine's work, but it's also wrong because kids are being subjected to it.

Originally Posted by The article

The school's principal, Kirk Anderson, said notifications went to parents explaining the dog was going to be euthanized and that the experiment would be done with the dog's organs still functioning.

I'm guessing the students could have opted out of it.

[sideus]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I just had Matt Drudge put it up on his site also.

How?

[Ω]

Why the outcry after the event? They were warned before hand of this "learning experience".

EDIT: Me typing skills are too slow today it seems....

[Cody Dawg]

By emailing him.

I also contacted Glenn Beck. I think everyone should know that this kind of thing is going on in a high school.

I'll bet it's all over the news tomorrow.

I'm sure, Sideus, that you (and some others) are an intelligent and caring person who has an intellectual bent that accepts this sort of thing, but the majority of us out here in "regular world" do NOT think this is acceptable.

It's horrific.

It's "Wes Craven Goes to Utah" in my mind.

[Cody Dawg]

I noticed that the school took down their faculty contact numbers and emails also.

[Ω]

When you dissect a frog in school dies it die?

This is an honest question, as I have no idea it was not part of the cirriculum where I grew up.

If yes, what is the difference?

[sideus]

The frog I dissected was already dead.

[Athens]

Its wrong because we have the tools and ability to demonstrate this as virtual reality, video and interactive computer programs. No need to use a real dog.

[alphasubzero949]

Originally Posted by _?_

Why the outcry after the event? They were warned before hand of this "learning experience".

True.

As far as the high school level, why not? Better to prep them in high school rather than in college, where they would be at a disadvantage when competing with students who have experience with dissections.

IMO, it would have been more appropriate if the dog was already euthanized prior to the dissection.

As far as the ridiculousness of post-dissection outcries, when I taught a cell bio lab (undergrads), I had a student cry foul over the homogenization of sea urchins - even with prior warning that this person was going to be doing it. Oddly enough, this student wanted to be a surgeon.


And the media? Any story that sells, as usual.

[Cody Dawg]

We dissected earthworms when I was in school and that also disgusted me.

I consider a dog a more sentient being than a worm - or a frog. Typically, dogs are beloved family members.

I wouldn't want to dissect a live frog either. I think that's wrong also.

With the students watching, the sedated dog's digestive system was removed.

I'm sure that was a horribly painful experience for that poor dog. I feel so sorry for it.

[sideus]

My high school dissected cats also. I opted out of that as I'm a cat lover.

[sideus]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I'm sure that was a horribly painful experience for that poor dog. I feel so sorry for it.

The dog was sedated.

[Cody Dawg]

Athens
Its wrong because we have the tools and ability to demonstrate this as virtual reality, video and interactive computer programs. No need to use a real dog.

That's EXACTLY right.

And who IS this science teacher, anyway, to ASSUME that the dog felt no pain? Is he an animal anesthetist? No. He's a teacher. HOW did he "anesthetize" the dog? With what? How? The truth is that he does not KNOW that the dog did not feel pain.

[Ω]

This is like Terri Shaivo all over again.....sigh

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

That's EXACTLY right.

And who IS this science teacher, anyway, to ASSUME that the dog felt no pain? Is he an animal anesthetist? No. He's a teacher. HOW did he "anesthetize" the dog? With what? How? The truth is that he does not KNOW that the dog did not feel pain.

I personally am not mad about it, I just think its wrong because we have other means to teach this stuff. 15 years ago I would have agreed with it for education, today there is just no reason for it. But there are much worst things out there like cosmetic products being tested on Animals, and lab experiments that do hurt animals. This is just another thing to me that I think is stupid but not worth working myself over.

[Cody Dawg]

I'm sure I'm more upset than most of you are, Athens.



(My dog is asleep in my bed next to me right now and the thought of someone dissecting him is very disturbing to me.)

But, I still think it's wrong for many reasons.

If two teenaged boys did this on their own they'd be charged with animal cruelty no matter how much they said, "Oh, but the dog was sedated."

[Randman]

If it were vet school, fine. I could see that as a semi-valid reason. But in a high school, to take an animal most would associate with a household pet is barbaric and just wrong. Frogs and earthworms aren't pets. I'm with Cody on this one.

I say cut the stupid ass teacher open as a lesson on human anatomy and let the students have a real learning experience.

[Cody Dawg]

If it were vet school, fine. I could see that as a semi-valid reason. But in a high school, to take an animal most would associate with a household pet is barbaric and just wrong. Frogs and earthworms aren't pets. I'm with Cody on this one.

I say cut the stupid ass teacher open as a lesson on human anatomy and let the students have a real learning experience.

BINGO!

Vet school, YES.

High school, NO.



As far as Terri Schiavo goes, good thing she wasn't related to this guy, the science teacher, or she might have been flayed wide open "to see the digestive system in a living animal."

[demograph68]

I hate dogs. Way to go!

[11011001]

Originally Posted by Athens

Its wrong because we have the tools and ability to demonstrate this as virtual reality, video and interactive computer programs. No need to use a real dog.

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

That's EXACTLY right.

And who IS this science teacher, anyway, to ASSUME that the dog felt no pain? Is he an animal anesthetist? No. He's a teacher. HOW did he "anesthetize" the dog? With what? How? The truth is that he does not KNOW that the dog did not feel pain.

Right, and how much is a virtual reality setup going to cost that can give a student an experience roughly equivalent to what a real dissection is like? And even with such expensive technology, the experience is going to be so far from the real thing.

I very much doubt that the students were forced to attend. They likely had to get signed permission from their parents, and also grant their own permission to attend.

For the record however, I probably would have attended, although I would have found the circulatory system more interesting. If it was a cat however, I probably wouldn't have, so I can understand yours, and other peoples feelings about this issue.

But frankly, none of us have any right to say what these parents can and cannot allow their children to do, and equivalently, we have no say over whether the children choose to participate after getting their parents permission. These people can make up their own minds, and indeed have the right to do so.

It angers me that people outside of the participants are on a witch hunt, and causing the school so much trouble. If they were really so concerned about the children and the impact on their education, might they not realize that they are wasting the schools time with this moral assault, time that could be spent teaching the children?

[screamingFit]

I agree with others. There is no reason high school kids need to see something like this. Me and millions of other high school graduates are just fine in our lives without having gone through such a dissection.

Come to think of it, there is NO reason any animal should be dissected by high schoolers. What's the point?

I find it ironic how people can be all up in arms about this poor animal but yet still eat meat. But, that's a story for another day...

[Athens]

i still would love to try dog meat one day, actually from 2 different types of dogs to see if there is a taste difference. We are so limiting our possible selections.

[Cipher13]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

It will be interesting to see the responses here. I think it's wrong.

I think it's wrong from the standpoint that we don't NEED to see HOW a dog's intestine's work, but it's also wrong because kids are being subjected to it. I don't see the learning value in it. As the article states, kids were horrified by it. I cannot even imagine being in a class where a dog is opened up in front of the class then killed afterwards in front of the class.

You think it's okay to torture the dog that way?

So, sideus, I can assume from your response that you think it's fine and dandy to watch an animal DISSECTED WHILE ALIVE? You'd be okay with your kids watching that also? And then watching the dog die?

Hmmm...

Okay.

We don't NEED to see how they work? Why not? Aren't you a fan of knowledge, just knee-jerk reactions?

The kids, no doubt, had the opportunity to opt out. If they stayed, that is their concern - they weren't subjected to anything beyond their control.

Torture? Please, quantify that remark? It was sedated.

Originally Posted by Athens

Its wrong because we have the tools and ability to demonstrate this as virtual reality, video and interactive computer programs. No need to use a real dog.

No, we don't.

Name one high school that has such tools. If you can, name one high school that isn't out of reach of 99% of the population that has such tools.

Even if we did, just no. Videos, virtual reality, and interactive computer programs are NO way to learn physiology.

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

That's EXACTLY right.

And who IS this science teacher, anyway, to ASSUME that the dog felt no pain? Is he an animal anesthetist? No. He's a teacher. HOW did he "anesthetize" the dog? With what? How? The truth is that he does not KNOW that the dog did not feel pain.

He's not an idiot. Ever been in hospital, for surgery, and been anaesthatised? Did you feel pain despite it? Anaesthatising an animal that is to be DISECTED is NOT difficult. You don't have to worry nearly as much about dangerous dosages. I've anaesthatised animals for disection myself; it's quite simple.

To bring the argument down to your level, if the dog felt pain why didn't it yelp?



-------------------------------------------------------


Now listen. I don't necessarily advocate such a thing for a high school class, but I'm equally opposed to your reactions. For God's sake, will you just get a life, instead of having these tantrums about every little thing? Does it make you feel special trying to be opposed to EVERYTHING?

Now I've studied comparitive physiology, and let me tell you now, that 3D simulations and what not just don't cut it in the least. If you really want to learn, you have to get your hands dirty. I'd probably save something of this nature for a vet school, or university-level class (here in Australia, there would be no way in hell you could get away with doing what he did); but this isn't nearly as outrageous as you're making it.

Ah, forget it, you're just a troll anyway, looking to stir **** up as much as you can. Congrats, you drew me in too.

[Eriamjh]

Originally Posted by _?_

This is like Terri Shaivo all over again.....sigh

No it isn't! This completely different! Terry was a vegetable. Now were talking about a dog!!

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by sideus

The frog I dissected was already dead.

Yup, mine too. It was even shrink wrapped.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I can see it as a "learning experience" when the kids are OVER 18.

College, MAYBE.

Medical school. PROBABLY.

But, high school? NO.

I think this is College level stuff. It is a very very important experience, but only if you are going into the field of biology, physiology or medicine. For high-school kids.. I have my doubts. High-school is just a few steps away from kindergarten in terms of seriousness

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Athens

Its wrong because we have the tools and ability to demonstrate this as virtual reality, video and interactive computer programs. No need to use a real dog.

...so do you think the same applies to university biology students?

[11011001]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

I think this is College level stuff. It is a very very important experience, but only if you are going into the field of biology, physiology or medicine. For high-school kids.. I have my doubts. High-school is just a few steps away from kindergarten in terms of seriousness

Besides, it wasn't even the students doing the cutting. They just observed.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

...so do you think the same applies to university biology students?

Nope, different level of schooling. You dont send grade 2's into a grade 12s Auto Class, you give them plastic toy cars and computer games. You dont give grade 11's live animals to chop up, you give them frogs and computer programs. University you give them pigs and other animals.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Cipher13

We don't NEED to see how they work? Why not? Aren't you a fan of knowledge, just knee-jerk reactions?

The kids, no doubt, had the opportunity to opt out. If they stayed, that is their concern - they weren't subjected to anything beyond their control.

Torture? Please, quantify that remark? It was sedated.



No, we don't.

Name one high school that has such tools. If you can, name one high school that isn't out of reach of 99% of the population that has such tools.

Even if we did, just no. Videos, virtual reality, and interactive computer programs are NO way to learn physiology.



He's not an idiot. Ever been in hospital, for surgery, and been anaesthatised? Did you feel pain despite it? Anaesthatising an animal that is to be DISECTED is NOT difficult. You don't have to worry nearly as much about dangerous dosages. I've anaesthatised animals for disection myself; it's quite simple.

To bring the argument down to your level, if the dog felt pain why didn't it yelp?



-------------------------------------------------------


Now listen. I don't necessarily advocate such a thing for a high school class, but I'm equally opposed to your reactions. For God's sake, will you just get a life, instead of having these tantrums about every little thing? Does it make you feel special trying to be opposed to EVERYTHING?

Now I've studied comparitive physiology, and let me tell you now, that 3D simulations and what not just don't cut it in the least. If you really want to learn, you have to get your hands dirty. I'd probably save something of this nature for a vet school, or university-level class (here in Australia, there would be no way in hell you could get away with doing what he did); but this isn't nearly as outrageous as you're making it.

Ah, forget it, you're just a troll anyway, looking to stir **** up as much as you can. Congrats, you drew me in too.

Centennial High School, Coquitlam BC Canada. We also had $80 000 worth of video editing gear, 12 lift Auto shop that operated as a business and generated income, 7 full computer labs. Just a average public school.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Athens

Nope, different level of schooling. You dont send grade 2's into a grade 12s Auto Class, you give them plastic toy cars and computer games. You dont give grade 11's live animals to chop up, you give them frogs and computer programs. University you give them pigs and other animals.

In university we get what we need.

The vets are the only ones that get cattle though

As for these HS kids, since the teacher did the cutting and showing and preparing I don't think this was over-the-top. I'm sure he's got scientific education and perhaps can invoke interest in biology in some of the students.

What was advanced is that the animal was alive at the time, which does require a lot more equipment and preparation than just dissecting a carcass. My HS sure didn't have the €€s to do any such stunts!!

[Cipher13]

Originally Posted by Athens

Centennial High School, Coquitlam BC Canada. We also had $80 000 worth of video editing gear, 12 lift Auto shop that operated as a business and generated income, 7 full computer labs. Just a average public school.

12 Auto lift shops, 7 full computer labs, $80 000 worth of video editing gear, and unmentioned 3D equipment to facilitate your suggestion?

Just an average public school my ass.

[Athens]

ok we have the largest Auto shop of the other high schools, most usally only have 6 to 8. I never said anything about 3D equitment, virtual reality on any desktop computer, i did mention 7 full labs of over 220 Computers, and at Centennial about half of them are powerful enough to run any 3D.

[Cipher13]

My point being that doesn't sound like any average high school.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Cipher13

My point being that doesn't sound like any average high school.

Cant speak about the rest of Canada, but thats the average in BC at least in Victoria and Vancouver.

My old High School the Technology Classes
http://www.cent.org/Dept/Teched.htm
and clubs
http://www.cent.org/SportsClubs/clubs.htm

my fav was the Drag Racing Club we took the car out to mission race way 4 times a year.

Glen Eagle
http://gleneagle.org/GO/htm/dept/technology/index.html

Charles Best
http://www.charlesbest.sd43.bc.ca/ac...tionindex.html

[Mithras]

Holy ****, time to check the weather in hell, because I agree with Cody Dawg.
My wife vivisected a dog in medical school, and while they definitely learned some physiology from the experience, it was (a) aimed at a group who truly stood to learn from it, (b) of questionable pedagogical value anyway, since they learned much more participating in real surgeries on people.

High school kids just aren't at a point where the potential education from a vivisection outweighs the difficulties, in my opinion. Let them use fetal pigs or something.

I don't think it's an outrage or anything, but it's probably not the best choice.

[Cody Dawg]

Can you imagine if EVERY high school science teacher in America decided to trot down to the local dog pound and pick out a dog...to dissect it?

[scaught]

i love when people get all emotional about dogs, but would tear through a steak without batting an eye.

[bubblewrap]

Originally Posted by scaught

i love when people get all emotional about dogs, but would tear through a steak without batting an eye.

Except a steak won't try and find you help or pull an infant to safety from a burning building.

[paul w]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Can you imagine if EVERY high school science teacher in America decided to trot down to the local dog pound and pick out a dog...to dissect it?

Maybe people would abandon their dogs less. Nah, I'm sure they wouldn't.




The shock, the horror, the outrage...

Yes, it's another Cody Dawg thread.

[Cody Dawg]

The shock, the horror, the outrage...

Yes, it's another Cody Dawg thread.

Yes, it is, when it comes to people dissecting live creatures, especially dogs.

Now, why couldn't they have rounded up the bastard that kidnapped, molested, then buried little 8-year old Jessica Lunsford alive down here in Florida and dissected HIM?

Instead they used an innocent dog.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Yes, it is, when it comes to people dissecting live creatures, especially dogs.

Now, why couldn't they have rounded up the bastard that kidnapped, molested, then buried little 8-year old Jessica Lunsford alive down here in Florida and dissected HIM?

Instead they used an innocent dog.

How do you know that dog wasent on death row for biting some kids ear off?

[Cody Dawg]

Okay, let's assume he DID bite some kid's ear off.

Maybe it was the same kid that teased the dog and said, "Hey, we're gonna cut you wide open and take out your stomach and intestines WHILE YOU'RE STILL ALIVE..."

If so, then the kid deserved to have his ear bitten off.

[zerostar]

Id say the dog was far from innocent, probably pissed a few rugs in its day too.

Filet it open, they should start this in kindergarten then we wouldn't have so many crybabies who start retarded threads all the time.