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Diggory Laycock · May 13, 2005, 12:57 PM

GRAHHHH!

I've got a vestigial landline phone that I need for my house alarm. I never use it, but it's still connected to a handset, because it used to be my main number, and some people still call it (I then give them the new number.)

I have all my phones registered with TPS (the UK Telephone Preference Service) which means I shouldn't get unsolicited calls.

Every so often, and with increasing frequency, I get a mystery call:

it rings and there's no caller ID.

Upon answering there is silence - if you make a human-like noise - a recorded message (from an American) begins "you have won a prize... blah..."

The first time I received one of these I instantly hung-up and called my telecoms provider for that line (BT - ex-state-monopoly, and currently still pretty close to a monopoly in practice.) I tried to explain and complain about the call, and basically got the standard "There's nothing we can do really, and we don't care - please piss off."

Now until this evening I always automatically hung-up on these calls - they are clearly scams, but tonight, for some reason (perhaps the frequency of the calls finally drove me mad - at least two a week), I got so annoyed that I decided to listen to the whole thing - after all, I can't be charged for an incoming call. I had done this once before - and after the recording ends it hangs-up.

This time, I noticed that there was a prompt to press nine to talk to an operator - I pressed the button (I hoped to glean some small amount of information about them) and got an American woman - I instantly asked her what company she worked for "For the safety of our employees we don't disclose that" (ha!).

I suggested that she try something less illegal for a living, she replied "but they pay me $16 an hour."

I asked her where she was - she cautiously answered that she was in the south of the US. Alas I clearly wasn't going to get any useful information out of her, so I hung-up.

I didn't really expect to get anything useful out of them, but I hadn't handed over any personal info, so I reckoned I was pretty safe.

I did a some Googling to try and find out about these scams, to see if there was any way to combat them - and discovered something horrific:

I may have, without any knowledge, have initiated a reverse-charge premium rate charge on the call by pressing the button to get through to the person.

I called BT - and they seemed very familiar with the situation - "you should have just ignored it - there's nothing we can do - unless Government legislates."

I couldn't believe it! They can't tell how much (or if) I was charged until tomorrow - and they sounded as if they were not in any way likely to refund or cancel the charge.

How is this legal? How can consent for that kind of charge be granted by a single button press, without any prior warning of charge at all - all generated from an incoming, unsolicited recorded phone call?

Arghhhh!!!!!

I also don't understand how a modern telecoms company (probably one of the biggest in the world) can bill you incredibly accurately, but if you want to inform them of attempted fraud by an incoming call they show no interest / claim it's impossible to trace who just called you.

[edit] - Ironically at the top of this post I just noticed a "click here to claim your prize" banner.
I mean it's not like the phone service is the web - I'm not surfing and clicking banners and giving my details - this was an incoming call that triggers BT to bill me massively, and I didn't give any details, just pressed a key on the phone.

Makes me wonder if it were possible from the scammers to cut out the keypress stage and bill me from the moment of picking up the phone - would BT still bill me.... probably.

wdlove · May 13, 2005, 02:02 PM

I will be interested to hear if they actually billed you. It seems the the crooked have every thing going for them.

PacHead · May 13, 2005, 02:04 PM

I thought the whole point of a caller ID is to screen callers, not to pick up "anonymous" calls.

acadian · May 13, 2005, 02:07 PM

Sounds like a scam that was going on here in Canada a couple years back where you would recieve unsolicited calls urging you to call a number with some strange prefix like 1-879.... or something, thinkong it would be toll free. You ended up getting some insane charge on your bill for thousands of dollars. Bell canada started a informaqtion campaign about this but I have not heard anything since then.

Diggory Laycock · May 13, 2005, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by PacHead

I thought the whole point of a caller ID is to screen callers, not to pick up "anonymous" calls.

Theoretically, yes - however in practice many valid people who call from offices or institutions appear as "unavailable" so you can't just blithely ignore them.

PacHead · May 13, 2005, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by Diggory Laycock

Theoretically, yes - however in practice many valid people who call from offices or institutions appear as "unavailable" so you can't just blithely ignore them.

Yes, I do realize that. I have caller ID myself, and if it's anonymous or unavailable, I'll let the answering machine pick it up, and if the person on the other line has something useful to say, then I'll pick it up.

I agree with you that telephone companies do suck though. There was a thread a while back which I started, in which I was charged hundreds of dollars for a phone call that lasted a few minutes.

Diggory Laycock · May 13, 2005, 02:16 PM

Does nobody find it odd that it's technically possible for a third-party to initiate the call to you - and then bill you, where your consent for this billing is just defined by pressing a button, and where there is no forward indication of the billing?

xi_hyperon · May 13, 2005, 02:23 PM

I find it very odd in fact, but more so, feel sorry for people who are victimized by such a scheme. That it is not pursued as a fraud case by the telephone company is criminal in itself.

turtle777 · May 13, 2005, 03:02 PM

Hmm, I wonder what would happen if you pay your telephone bill via credit card, and just dispute that charge as fraudulent.

Anyone who knows if that would work ?

-t

Diggory Laycock · 04:28 PM

No - that wouldn't work, because that CC transaction would not be fraudulent - The telco is not committing fraud by asking me to settle my phone bill.

It's not cc fraud - it's telecoms fraud.

One of the things that really pisses me off is the sheer f***ing brilliance of the scam.

It's a real catch-22:

Had I just hung-up, like all the other times - there would be no record of the call. Incoming calls aren't charged - and don't turn up on the bill. I tried complaining about these calls at the start and was basically told "we can't trace who just called you - not interested."

Since I didn't just hang-up, I will be charged - and a remote number will be connected to this charge. I can complain to the telecoms regulator, and if enough people complain about the same number, then I assume some action might (eventually) be taken against this specific (US) company.

This means that nothing happens until who knows how many people have been ripped-off?

I tried to tell the telco about these recorded calls months ago - after I got my first one- and they didn't seem at all interested.

There is no way to inform them of 'attempted hacks' on your phone line.

In contrast - my mobile phone network (Vodafone), had a similar problem last year - there was a rash of SMS'es connected to premium rate phone numbers, using all sorts of social engineering to lure people to text back (at a massive, hidden rate). They took a much more proactive approach - everyone on the network got an SMS with details of an SMS-Spam number you could report dodgy text messages to.

I haven't had a dodgy SMS in about 9 months.

BT simply don't seem to care about people abusing their customers.

I get the feeling that they won't do anything about it until either the press kicks up a stink, or someone brings it up in parliament (One of the people I spoke to at BT suggested I wrote to my MP!)

After all - how hard can it be for a telco company to allow you to call in and 'flag' incoming calls as dodgy? Just waiting until too many people have been ripped-off is not good enough.

Diggory Laycock · May 14, 2005, 04:20 AM

Right - The next day - and things are a bit more calm here.

I called BT again today - and got a much more clued-up girl, who was able to tell me that I have not been charged for anything yesterday - and that in fact it's technically impossible for an incoming call to switch to a charged call in-flight (unless you are talking to an operator.)

Panic Over!

Phew....

Cody Dawg · May 14, 2005, 05:34 AM

Sorry to hear you're going through angst waiting to see what arrives on your bill.

But, the telephone companies are ALL scamming people.

My telephone company (Cingular Wireless) enclosed a nifty little flyer with the last billing statement.

"Remember that when you call 411 information you are connected at NO CHARGE to the number you need!"

Sounds great, eh?

Well, I've been using 411 here, 411 there, after all, it's FREE.

Or so I thought.

I just received the bill this morning. On my bill are 8 charges for 411 calls at $1.99 each! I just called them and you know what they told me? They told me that to dial 411 for information is $1.99...

The only thing that is "free" is when 411 transfers you directly to the number itself!

WHAT A SCAM.

I'm very angry over it. I think I might call them back and yell at them about it.

Captain Obvious · May 14, 2005, 05:43 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

They told me that to dial 411 for information is $1.99...

The only thing that is "free" is when 411 transfers you directly to the number itself!

WHAT A SCAM.

Why do you keep talking?
Talk less and do things in a more intelligent manner. http://www.google.com/sms/

Diggory Laycock · 05:58 AM

That's bad.

If I were you - I'd scan a copy of the flyer (if you still have it).

Do you have an equivalent to the UK's Advertising Standards Authority or Office Of Fair Trading?

http://www.asa.org.uk/
http://www.oft.gov.uk/

If they flyer is misleading you might be able to get your money back.

[edit]

hmmm, "Remember that when you call 411 information you are connected at NO CHARGE to the number you need!" - although it's not the most clear language - it's technically correct:

You are being charged for the initial call to 411 - but not any extra for the auto-connection to the 3rd party afterwards.

There are many Directory services who charge extra *per-minute* of the onwardly connected call. There's only so much money they can make from giving people a small amount of information quickly. So they try to increase their revenue by providing these kinds of 'services'.

I would suggest never using Voice Directory Services to make the onward connection. Either dial yourself - or get them (or Google) to SMS you the details.

Telephone systems are expensive and antiquated when compared to the net - route around them where-ever possible.

Person Man · May 14, 2005, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I just received the bill this morning. On my bill are 8 charges for 411 calls at $1.99 each! I just called them and you know what they told me? They told me that to dial 411 for information is $1.99...

The only thing that is "free" is when 411 transfers you directly to the number itself!

WHAT A SCAM.

I'm very angry over it. I think I might call them back and yell at them about it.

You weren't scammed. What they told you was absolutely true. You got connected to numbers the information service found for you with no charge. You pay a charge for connection to 411, just like on a landline phone. The difference is that most landline 411 services will connect you to the number for an additional fee.

I don't know about your cell phone service, but it's your own fault for assuming that the 411 calls would be free. Should have read your entire service agreement, paying special attention to the charges and fees section. I ALWAYS look at that whenever signing up for a new contract, or getting a notice in the mail that the agreement is being changed.

nforcer · May 14, 2005, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by xi_hyperon

That it is not pursued as a fraud case by the telephone company is criminal in itself.

Indeed. That's not just a problem with telephone companies; it's a problem with the entire system in general, from corporations to the governments they operate under. If you ever have something stolen the feds don't even care about it unless it's over 5K worth of value. If you are ever scammed there is not much you should hope to accomplish by reporting it unless a few thousand other people were as well. You pretty much have to take the loss in situations like these. And they wonder why the middle class is shrinking.

t6hawk · May 14, 2005, 11:35 AM

Last I understood with the phone companies, all they do is provide the dialtone / service (which is never guaranteed) and they don't restrict the calls received like the scam ones. I had problems like this before. I learned that Call Display will not show any name/number on intermational calls or calls going thru certain long distance carriers. *69 will only work in some cases and normally not on long distance calls but there is a per use charge for that too.

The telcos will only restrict calls if you order / pay for extra features for the line and i don't know of any single one that deals with the scams like that. I know my provider actually blocked access to 3 countries that those PC autodialer viruses like to call but other than that, the scams and telemarketers continue.

Normally for me if I get a telemarketer, one way to get rid of them is to pretend you are some non-profit organization. I used that a few times and I've never been bothered by those companies since.

Captain Obvious · May 14, 2005, 04:16 PM

Am I the only one who buys Privacy Manager?
You guys are making this way too complicated.

Cody Dawg · May 14, 2005, 05:38 PM

Yeah. You're always PERFECT, Captain Obvious.

Like you said, "Why do you keep talking?"

ghporter · May 14, 2005, 07:39 PM

Cody, 411 stopped being "free" on landlines for most of us several years ago. My cell phone plan gives me free 411 that way-the same way I get free long distance (when I call from within my home area-there's always some catch). At least the 411 folks will connect you instead of you needing to write down the number.

I've received all sorts of calls from all sorts of unkosher sources. I always hang up on any recording-no matter what. And if I get a charity appeal call, they'd better darn well be paying attention when I answer, or they'll get a very rude man telling them NEVER to call again (this is something they're LEGALLY required to do, by the way). And I've also received calls that appear to be completely random occurrences that were not initiated by humans at all. The telephone system is very complex, and sometimes a local switch will hiccough and ring you without any reason.

Unfortunately, I've been seriously conditioned to answer a ringing phone promptly. It was hard to not jump up at dinner to answer the phone before the No Call List became official. I'm getting better, but it's a slow process.

Ghoser777 · May 14, 2005, 07:48 PM

If someone needs to get a message to me, they'll leave it on my answering machine. Otherwise, it just isn't all that important.

Person Man · May 15, 2005, 04:17 AM

Originally Posted by Ghoser777

If someone needs to get a message to me, they'll leave it on my answering machine. Otherwise, it just isn't all that important.

Yes, and before the days of the national do not call list your answering machine would get so full from telemarketers leaving their sales pitches on the tape that "real" calls couldn't leave messages...

Angus_D · May 15, 2005, 04:28 AM

The Data Commissioner's Office is investigating this stuff. They've been cracking down hard on people doing this from within the UK, but these people are dialling from the US and thus not subject to UK law. Bastards.

turtle777 · May 16, 2005, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

"Remember that when you call 411 information you are connected at NO CHARGE to the number you need!"

The only thing that is "free" is when 411 transfers you directly to the number itself!
WHAT A SCAM.

It's not a scam, you just didn't pay attention.

What made you think the "at NO CHARGE" part refers back to "you call 411", when in fact, it appears right after "you are connected" ?

Basic English grammar structure, anyone ?

-t

RAILhead · May 16, 2005, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by Diggory Laycock

Theoretically, yes - however in practice many valid people who call from offices or institutions appear as "unavailable" so you can't just blithely ignore them.

Yes you can. If it's legit, they'll leave a message and you can call them back.

Maury

CharlesS · May 16, 2005, 09:59 AM

http://www.snopes.com/crime/fraud/jailcall.asp

ghporter · May 16, 2005, 11:07 AM

Railhead, any legitimate entity that wants to contact me will have a valid Caller ID entry. I receive calls from federal government agencies (the Air Force), hospitals and schools, and so on, and they all have valid entries. There are sometimes glitches, since these functions usually have a central switchboard or even their own telephone system, so what shows up is "odd" or confusing, but caller ID will indeed say something other than "unavailable."

Simon X · 08:26 AM

...

Diggory Laycock · May 16, 2005, 05:15 PM

Simon X:

TPS is good - but not for these guys - they are international - and clearly not interested in being legal.

There is also a good postal version - MPS. (I think)

turtle777 · May 16, 2005, 05:28 PM

With the rise of VoIP, we'll soon get marketing calls from Eastern Europe and India.
Fark, nobody will protect us from that sh!t

-t

Diggory Laycock · May 16, 2005, 05:36 PM

Ah but at least there will be proper logging - so if you complain to your provider - they might complain to the originating network - like back in the old days of email.

I suppose they'll just use compromised PCs as proxies though... at least a machine on dial-up can't do Voispam.

turtle777 · May 16, 2005, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by Diggory Laycock

Ah but at least there will be proper logging - so if you complain to your provider - they might complain to the originating network - like back in the old days of email.

Mwahahaha, do you really believe that ? What are you smoking ?

What's the provider supposed to do ? Shut down incoming calls from the the TLD of Russia or India ?

-t