[besson3c]

I don't care if the laptop deal involves putting Macs or Windows laptops in the classrooms, I think they are all retarded.

Have you ever met a teacher that thought that their class sizes were small enough, that they are paid enough, were able to offer the students enough genuinely educational field trips, and that their district has a surplus of money just waiting to be spent?

I'm sick of parents and small-minded administrators in pre-higher ed pushing for laptops in the classrooms because "that is what they use out in the real world". Teach students to learn how to learn, teach them to be critical thinkers, don't set the bar low by simply treating the school like a Devry-style vocational school. Put money into getting the best teachers and doing as good a job as possible in developing forward thinking, curious minds. With the global economic playing field being leveled, there are already tons of people in the rest of world who know how to operate a computer and the software of the day, and this number is growing. Nobody cares that you know how to use Microsoft Word version x. So does everybody else and their dog.

Besides, I have yet to see a case where the teachers were adequately trained to teach technology effectively. Faculty in higher ed institutions where technological resources are abundant struggle with technology, I don't see why people think that schools less abundant in resources would fare any better.

Having some cutesy educational software available does not warrant the millions of dollars needed to put a laptop in the hands of every student. Having the internet available may seem like a great idea, but it has also helped encourage very lazy research skills.

Perhaps many of these problems will go away, but for the time being, I say that putting a laptop in the hands of every student is a very bad use of money. I'm for having a computer lab available to students, simply because not every family can afford their own computer and software.

Yes, I'm a hardcore computer geek. No, I'm not a luddite. I'm not even a teacher myself, I just happen to know several, work in an academic environment, and have years of personal experience to base these beliefs on.

Just about every teacher I know feels that the administration (and perhaps the rest of the world), is really out-of-touch with what goes on in the classroom. I feel that in many, if not most cases, these laptop purchases are probably just another example of this, and shortsighted thinking by administrators.

[sideus]

School Districts waste too much money and then never have the money or resources for the important stuff.

[Spliffdaddy]

Abolishing the NEA would be a terrific first step toward better education for public school students. If teachers can't be held responsible for their performance, then we're stuck with the ineffective teachers until the end of time.

I've never been able to say that ALL my coworkers were great employees and assets to the business. Inevitably, some were liabilities. The same is true everywhere...even in public education.

If more money is the answer, could we please have the problem back?

I'm of the opinion that a laptop computer is probably a better teacher than some of the living, breathing ones.

If we can get rid of the bad teachers we could afford to pay the ones that are left a lot more.

[ManOfSteal]

After personally being involved in one of the nation's largest 1-to-1 iBook initiatives, I can't begin to describe why I disagree with everything you put. There again, each district is different and some have ALOT more money than others.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Abolishing the NEA would be a terrific first step toward better education for public school students. If teachers can't be held responsible for their performance, then we're stuck with the ineffective teachers until the end of time.

I've never been able to say that ALL my coworkers were great employees and assets to the business. Inevitably, some were liabilities. The same is true everywhere...even in public education.

If more money is the answer, could we please have the problem back?

I'm of the opinion that a laptop computer is probably a better teacher than some of the living, breathing ones.

If we can get rid of the bad teachers we could afford to pay the ones that are left a lot more.

I don't see how the National Endowment for the Arts is connected to your argument?

Could you elaborate as to why you think that the main problem with the education system is bad teachers? Sure, granted there are bad teachers. But what about bad educational environments? Teachers being asked to basically parent kids? Bad administration? Administration that won't side with teachers when needed and warranted?

There are many deficiencies in our educational system, or any other. Distilling all of this down to bad teachers I think is missing something.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ManOfSteal

After personally being involved in one of the nation's largest 1-to-1 iBook initiatives, I can't begin to describe why I disagree with everything you put. There again, each district is different and some have ALOT more money than others.

Do you know of a district where it can be unanimously agreed upon that class sizes are small enough?

If you can, I can admit some flaws in my reasoning, but my own experience and limited knowledge indicates that this (small class sizes) is the exception, not the rule. Yet, ask any teacher what they would need to teach more effectively, and most of them would probably point to smaller class sizes.

[Briareus]

Acronym confusion: Spliffdaddy is referring to the National Education Association, not the National Endowment for the Arts.

[ManOfSteal]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Do you know of a district where it can be unanimously agreed upon that class sizes are small enough?

If you can, I can admit some flaws in my reasoning, but my own experience and limited knowledge indicates that this (small class sizes) is the exception, not the rule. Yet, ask any teacher what they would need to teach more effectively, and most of them would probably point to smaller class sizes.

What is considered a "small class size" in the larger school districts though? It's subjective. From my experiences, it wasn't about the class size for teachers, it was about the available resources that were at their disposal and how they could be used effectively. In the school district I was working with, I can guarantee that if they were offered to have a smaller class size, or additional resources to help facilitate and expand certain aspects of the technology plan, they would and did take the resources.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by ManOfSteal

What is considered a "small class size" in the larger school districts though? It's subjective. From my experiences, it wasn't about the class size for teachers, it was about the available resources that were at their disposal and how they could be used effectively. In the school district I was working with, I can guarantee that if they were offered to have a smaller class size, or additional resources to help facilitate and expand certain aspects of the technology plan, they would and did take the resources.

Meh. They just want the free laptops.

[milhous]

Originally Posted by Briareus

Acronym confusion: Spliffdaddy is referring to the National Education Association, not the National Endowment for the Arts.

correct. aka the teachers union.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Could you elaborate as to why you think that the main problem with the education system is bad teachers?

Sure. The teachers and ed majors I've known in the last 20 years have been a bunch of dunces. Nice folks, and hard working, sure, but not bright bulbs on average. We've created a system that rewards mediocrity and those folks are who we get as teachers. They may not be the main problem, but by reinforcing this the teacher's unions are a large part of the problem, esp. when they argue against accountability.

Parents bear the responsibility most of all, as mentioned. But parents get frustrated dealing with half-wit teachers and administrators. There are very few incentives to waste one's time trying to go against the entire system of mediocrity.

The whole idea of laptops in pre-college schools is an example of the problem. Either they're a distraction, or the process consumes too much time that should be spent on other things. Very little is known about how computers should be used, and what outcomes are different for those students using computers. It's what folks call a "red herring."

[ghporter]

Everyone has to keep one thing in mind: most school districts have almost ZERO input on how the overall funding they receive is apportioned. The governmental body that funds them, whether it's a city, county, or state, decides TO THE PENNY how the money gets spent, and governments LIKE computers. They look forward-thinking and progressive. They also say "we're futuristic" to many parents, so the voters like the idea too.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ManOfSteal

What is considered a "small class size" in the larger school districts though? It's subjective. From my experiences, it wasn't about the class size for teachers, it was about the available resources that were at their disposal and how they could be used effectively. In the school district I was working with, I can guarantee that if they were offered to have a smaller class size, or additional resources to help facilitate and expand certain aspects of the technology plan, they would and did take the resources.

Could you please elaborate how these resources, specifically computers, were used as effective teaching tools used to teach something meaningful and lasting?

By asking this, I'm not trying to sound offensive/defensive or otherwise argumentative.. I'm genuinely curious.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by finboy

Sure. The teachers and ed majors I've known in the last 20 years have been a bunch of dunces. Nice folks, and hard working, sure, but not bright bulbs on average. We've created a system that rewards mediocrity and those folks are who we get as teachers. They may not be the main problem, but by reinforcing this the teacher's unions are a large part of the problem, esp. when they argue against accountability.

Parents bear the responsibility most of all, as mentioned. But parents get frustrated dealing with half-wit teachers and administrators. There are very few incentives to waste one's time trying to go against the entire system of mediocrity.

The whole idea of laptops in pre-college schools is an example of the problem. Either they're a distraction, or the process consumes too much time that should be spent on other things. Very little is known about how computers should be used, and what outcomes are different for those students using computers. It's what folks call a "red herring."

I agree with you about the laptops, obviously...

I can see your point re: quality of teachers, but I think this is systemic of a larger problem, and that is that there is no accurate metric being used for measuring the quality of a teacher.

The amount of "stuff" that you know does not equate to being a better teacher. There is so much more which goes on in (accurately) determining the quality of a teacher (e.g. ability to keep a class on task, ability to teach large and small groups, ability to create a productive learning environment, ability to teach in a way that is accessible to everybody in the class, ability to challenge the smart kids without leaving the dumb kids behind, etc.). I don't think there is actually a way to measure all of this without being in the classroom - certainly not by test scores or stats.

Sure some teachers might be dim-bulbs, but at the lower grades especially, I'd take a teacher who is not a math genius his or herself but can teach math really effectively to an entire class of future dunces and math geniuses.

[maxelson]

Originally Posted by sideus

School Districts waste too much money and then never have the money or resources for the important stuff.

Edit: nevermind. Everyone is an expert at public education, except the educators.

[JoshKurtz]

I live outside of Memphis, where they bought an iBook for every teacher in the Memphis City School System and plenty of them, with Airport stations, for the classrooms.
This would be cool if they didn't have 10 or so schools that don't even have air conditioning yet. And it gets hot here.

[Millennium]

If one wants to get rid of bad teachers, this is all well and good, but we have to realize that in recent years our educational system has completely hamstrung the teachers in terms of teaching style, disciplinary methods, and the ability to communicate effectively with parents. Most of this has been done either in deference to The Cult Of Self-Esteem or the fear of lawsuits, and often both.

Throw in some lawsuit protection and let the teachers teach again, and perhaps we will find that there are far fewer bad teachers than people realize.

[ManOfSteal]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Could you please elaborate how these resources, specifically computers, were used as effective teaching tools used to teach something meaningful and lasting?

By asking this, I'm not trying to sound offensive/defensive or otherwise argumentative.. I'm genuinely curious.

Sure, I'll try my best....good question. Not being in the classroom myself (as a teacher) and strictly going off what I viewed while working on the technology/implementation side of things, I can vouch for the following uses of an iBook (or any computer) within the classroom:

1.) Literacy:The main reason for the iBooks in the district I worked in, was to improve "literacy"....that was the main focus. They did this by creative writing skills on the computer. A lot of younger children have a hard time writing down good thoughts using paper and pencil (sad, but true). If kids do use paper/pencil, they won't be writing down much and giving it much thought because it takes them so long to write complete sentences at length. It was found that by using the iBook, kids were more focused in their writing habits and the content was much greater because they could go much faster and get their thoughts down quicker by typing. Also, kids who are shy and do not like to speak out at a younger age, were found to have tremendous writing skills and ideas when they sat down with the iBook and actually typed out their thoughts/ideas.

2.) "The Digital Hub": iPhoto and iMovie (iTunes will come later). These were used for a ton of very creative media assignments. The kids had access to digital cameras and camcorders that were used in teamwork related groups. The focus of this was working in a team type atmosphere of course, but the kids also learned a ton about putting together story-lines (both written and acted out for iMovie presentations). I cannot begin to tell you how incredible some of these assignments came out, and this was by 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th graders. Incredible work!

3.) Presentation Tools: Microsoft PowerPoint. This was being used for a variety of different things. Everything from visual presentations of course, to excellent "Book Reports" using various slides and transitions. Again, some of the presentations that were created are far beyond anything I can do within PowerPoint even.

4.) Research: The Internet. I don't need to explain this one, but needless to say, having the Internet at your disposal does wonders for research and the quality of content that kids had access to and found.

5.) Science: USB Microscopes. Awesome tool that was used to examine different things during Science lessons. Kids would take this information, snap pictures from the USB Microscope of the artifact, write up something in Word, and then create a presentation of all the stuff in PowerPoint to display.

6.) Music: iTunes and Finale Notepad. Music class became fun for kids. They could create their very own music using Finale Notepad. It's very hard to teach (and especially learn) various notes in music, but when you can actually hear them, and then write music notes within a program, it makes much more sense. iTunes was used to store "homework related" songs and music for use within the previously mentioned digital/media assignments.

7.) Visual Thinking: Inspiration. Inspiration is a visual thinking tool that you can use to develop ideas, plans, and various processes. It features integrated diagramming and outlining environments to let you quickly generate ideas, create diagrams, organize information, outline proposals, and more.

8.) Quieter Classrooms: iChat. Yes, iChat was a miracle worker in not only allowing kids to chat (thus making the classrooms quieter with less talking), but also the ability to share documents among each other (and teachers) via file transfers. Closely moderated, this was a very effective tool. (On a side note, iChat was a great bargaining tool that the teachers used. If kids were mis-behaving, it took a very simple threat to not allow iChat and/or close down the iBooks, and the kids instantly behaved.)

There is more, but I'll leave it at these highlights for now. Also, how you perceive "meaningful and lasting" could be different; however, I think everything I mentioned above were very valuable lessons and experiences that most kids would benefit from while in school.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by maxelson

Edit: nevermind. Everyone is an expert at public education, except the educators.

I have a BS in computer science, an associates degree in training, and 12 years experience as an instructor at the junior college level. I also know how funding works, particularly where I am. The legislators/county commisioners/school board members-whoever it is that has statutory control of the pursestrings-is who divvies up the money, NOT the superintendent, the teachers, or anyone else.

[Kilbey]

Originally Posted by maxelson

Edit: nevermind. Everyone is an expert at public education, except the educators.

Exactly. I am married to a Kindergarten teacher with a Masters Degree (plus). It's not class size, Laptops on every desk, or Unions creating the problems in today's schools. It's the parents. The biggest complaint when my wife's school went back to half-a-day kindergarten from all-day Kindergarten was "Great, now I have to be home/day care/take care of my own kid".

The biggest problem today is simply parents.

My 19 month old knows the primary colors, can count to 5, and can create matching pairs. My wife has kids in her class that couldn't do this at 5 years old. You don't teach colors in kindergarten anymore. They are learning addition and reading. Kindergarten today is like the 1 grade when I was younger. Parents today want someone else to raise their kids.

Originally Posted by ghporter

I have a BS in computer science, an associates degree in training, and 12 years experience as an instructor at the junior college level. I also know how funding works, particularly where I am. The legislators/county commisioners/school board members-whoever it is that has statutory control of the pursestrings-is who divvies up the money, NOT the superintendent, the teachers, or anyone else.

Thank you for your input. A few years ago the State of Michigan wanted to buy a computer for every teacher. We have two at home and my wife has 3 in her classroom already. She didn't want the hassle of another computer and had ZERO need for it. She asked the administration if she could use the money on some supplies or a field trip. They told her "no." She said she didn't want the computer then. Guess what she got. A new computer. She gave out on permanent loan to the library. They didn't really want it either, but they took it because they had the room for it.

[quesera]

For the record, my class size is great, 15 students. I think we have a state mandated cap of 19 in K-4. That'll probably change as the legislative efforts to dismantle public education continue at the state and federal level.

As far as pay goes, I do better than I did ten years ago when I started. it's not a factor in my choice of profession. That being said, I don't know if I'm underpaid, but on a comparitive basis it seems that many other professions (and jobs) overpay their employees. I won't begin to expound on the impact I make on many lives and many futures, that's just too touchy-feely, and as I said, the money is not a factor in my decision-making.

My district is making a good effort to enhance the use of technology, not by buying us all laptops, but through some equipment and lots of training. Using the technology as a tool for learning beyond the skill and drill of most educational software is our goal. Enhancing understanding (learning how to learn), improving communication, and fostering creativity, is this what you do with your technology? There's a continum of tech usage called LOTI (levels of tech. implementation) that I think defines this well for us. Critical and higher order thinking skills are worthy goals, and I work hard toward that end, but I'm also teaching the technology. Imagine trying to teach someone to write (alphabetic principle, phonics, penmanship), use those writing skills to write a novel, and then assess their own work critically, all in 9 months (which is not really as long as you might think). This is what incorporating technology into instruction is like. My students are also second language learners, and prone to many of the standard difficulties of their socioeconomic status as well. Oh, and then there's those troublesome standardized tests that God and George W. have mandated.They eat enormous chunks of time and enthusiasm even for those who don't teach to the test.

Despite all that I think my students are solidly grounded in technology and content.

I would know how to implement instruction with a laptop for every one of my students, but I concede that many teachers would not. Death, attrition, and retirement seem to be addressing this more quickly than you might think. Attracting quality teachers, and more inportantly, keeping them is a problem. Tenure shouldn't be such a dirty word. The experience in the classroom is vital, and I would venture that most teachers grow tremendously from it. Continuous professional development helps too. When I graduated from Stanford I was smart as hell and a terrible teacher my first day in a classroom. As the years have passed, I find myself, much like Mark Twain with his father, amazed at how much I've learned since then.

I kind of understand the anti-union sentiments, but I think their impact on the quality of teachers and education has been greatly distorted. The union is somewhat a neccessary evil to protect us from the incompetent (who always seem to rise to administrative levels), the irate (parents whose little prince or princess is lacking in work ethic or self control), and the frugal (citizenry who got their entitlement but don't want to give it to the next generation).

Finally, I don't understand the rabid hostility toward teachers that I see foaming from the mouth of lawmakers, the media, and in discussions like these. What, did y'all get whacked on the knuckles with a ruler in grade school by Miss Crabtree or something?

[gururafiki]

Being a teacher, I have first hand experience on how computers improve the learning experience of students. I do not know were to begin, but I must point out that ManOfSteal has some very valid points that he states above.

One thing that I must point out is that people are making such a big deal about money. Having the resource of the internet is much cheaper than purchasing dictionaries, thesauruses, and encyclopedias every five years. The resources that are on the internet are priceless. I am speaking for students AND teachers. As a teacher, the internet makes it MUCH easier to share and create lesson plans, which improve the learning experience for the students.

It is true that many teachers do not have the complete knowledge of computers to take full advantage of their capabilities, but the problem in that lies the lack of training, not the stupidity of the teachers. The laptop deals for schools are great for education, and in every example I have seen, they have improved the quality of education for students and teachers. Although, each state and county is different, it is possible for a school district to misuse their resources, so I won't say it doesn't happen. But to say that all school laptop deals are "retarded" is slightly ignorant IMO. Especially when you are NOT a teacher.

[gururafiki]

Originally Posted by quesera

Finally, I don't understand the rabid hostility toward teachers that I see foaming from the mouth of lawmakers, the media, and in discussions like these.

Exactly. People need a scapegoat for an education system that does not work 100%, and teachers are the first to blame. Nobody ever takes a serious look at other issues, like funding! I am not saying that as a teacher I need more pay, but we do need more teachers in schools and those teachers do need more resources...like computers!

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ManOfSteal

1.) Literacy:The main reason for the iBooks in the district I worked in, was to improve "literacy"....that was the main focus. They did this by creative writing skills on the computer. A lot of younger children have a hard time writing down good thoughts using paper and pencil (sad, but true). If kids do use paper/pencil, they won't be writing down much and giving it much thought because it takes them so long to write complete sentences at length. It was found that by using the iBook, kids were more focused in their writing habits and the content was much greater because they could go much faster and get their thoughts down quicker by typing. Also, kids who are shy and do not like to speak out at a younger age, were found to have tremendous writing skills and ideas when they sat down with the iBook and actually typed out their thoughts/ideas.

I don't buy this. For one, most kids outside of these laptop-districts no doubt have access to computers in one way or another. If they really feel more comfortable writing on a computer, there is nothing stopping them from writing their papers on the computer regardless of a laptop deal.

Furthermore, as much as I hate writing stuff on paper, I still can. Just as drawing is still taught to fine arts/graphic design majors, I think that handwriting is still an important skill.

Also, I think there is value in learning how to spell things correctly without relying on the spellcheck and being lazy and passive about accepting its recommendations.

The computer is just a tool. It is not a magic literacy-creating wonder machine. I've worked in Journalism classes of a big 10 University and was quite taken aback by the poor writing skills of the students. Part of this can be attributed to years of lazy stream-of-consciousness email and instant messaging which the internet makes too easy to become second nature.

2.) "The Digital Hub": iPhoto and iMovie (iTunes will come later). These were used for a ton of very creative media assignments. The kids had access to digital cameras and camcorders that were used in teamwork related groups. The focus of this was working in a team type atmosphere of course, but the kids also learned a ton about putting together story-lines (both written and acted out for iMovie presentations). I cannot begin to tell you how incredible some of these assignments came out, and this was by 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th graders. Incredible work!

Being creative with technology is a wonderful thing, I just think it's a very expensive wonderful thing considering all of the other creative outlets (e.g. Arts) that are strapped for cash partially because of this technological drive being pushed at the schools.

Let's face it, iMovie and the iApps make creating mediocre but acceptable work really easy. It is easy for students to get caught up in making something look flashy and cute rather than focusing on making the content as strong as possible. I've fallen into this trap many times.

3.) Presentation Tools: Microsoft PowerPoint. This was being used for a variety of different things. Everything from visual presentations of course, to excellent "Book Reports" using various slides and transitions. Again, some of the presentations that were created are far beyond anything I can do within PowerPoint even.

Goody. I can't wait for this next generation of Powerpoint/Keynote presentation! This technology has moved along so fast that I think it has taken us time to figure out how to actually use these tools truly effectively inside and outside a business setting. I'm sick of kitschy, tacky, Powerpoint presentations that are light on substance.

How many classrooms in America have (i.e. can afford) projectors? I'd say very few...

4.) Research: The Internet. I don't need to explain this one, but needless to say, having the Internet at your disposal does wonders for research and the quality of content that kids had access to and found.

The problem with the internet is that it has created very lazy research skills. If it is on the internet, it might be true, right?

This is already a problem regardless of these laptop deals, I realize. My main point here is that pushing the internet as the replacement for the public/school library has its problems, many which I think we are only beginning to sort out.

5.) Science: USB Microscopes. Awesome tool that was used to examine different things during Science lessons. Kids would take this information, snap pictures from the USB Microscope of the artifact, write up something in Word, and then create a presentation of all the stuff in PowerPoint to display.

This does sound cool... cheaper than regular microscopes though? Cheaper than regular microscopes including the cost of the computer and software?

6.) Music: iTunes and Finale Notepad. Music class became fun for kids. They could create their very own music using Finale Notepad. It's very hard to teach (and especially learn) various notes in music, but when you can actually hear them, and then write music notes within a program, it makes much more sense. iTunes was used to store "homework related" songs and music for use within the previously mentioned digital/media assignments.

I don't see how iTunes can be used to teach music. I can buy Finale Notepad and other basic MIDI tools... cool. As long as it doesn't require cutting back on the band and choir departments.

7.) Visual Thinking: Inspiration. Inspiration is a visual thinking tool that you can use to develop ideas, plans, and various processes. It features integrated diagramming and outlining environments to let you quickly generate ideas, create diagrams, organize information, outline proposals, and more.

Do you see value in teaching the kids how to generate their own diagrams/graphs, not just for the sake of being able to, but so they can actually understand how this data is represented? Ideas like percentages are rather abstract and difficult for young students to grasp. Perhaps various visual cues would help clarify some confusion, but you'd be surprised how many students don't understand the basic idea of what a percentage is to know enough how to do the math for themselves.

8.) Quieter Classrooms: iChat. Yes, iChat was a miracle worker in not only allowing kids to chat (thus making the classrooms quieter with less talking), but also the ability to share documents among each other (and teachers) via file transfers. Closely moderated, this was a very effective tool. (On a side note, iChat was a great bargaining tool that the teachers used. If kids were mis-behaving, it took a very simple threat to not allow iChat and/or close down the iBooks, and the kids instantly behaved.)

Disagree strongly. Profs in higher ed hate having to compete with students who are on their email or playing a game online. iChat in pre-higher ed sounds like a recipe for inattentive students. Why do students need to chat with each other anyway? They are in the same room!

There is more, but I'll leave it at these highlights for now. Also, how you perceive "meaningful and lasting" could be different; however, I think everything I mentioned above were very valuable lessons and experiences that most kids would benefit from while in school.

Sorry to dump all over your ideas here man, I'm just pretty dark on this stuff and think that technology advocates, in many cases, have a warped and idealistic sense of reality.

[just a poster]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I don't care if the laptop deal involves putting Macs or Windows laptops in the classrooms, I think they are all retarded.

I agree.

First of all, computers are not that expensive anyway; certainly not as expensive as when I was going to school.

But the biggest problem (in my mind) of all these efforts is that they "standardize" on a single platform, be it Wincrap or Macintosh or whatever... No real education is going happening.

Anyway, how restrictive are those computers anyway? Are kids getting admin accounts or are they limited to a "Microsoft Office" sandbox.

Powerpoint, Word, Mail and web browsing are not what I consider essential "real world" skills.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by quesera

For the record, my class size is great, 15 students. I think we have a state mandated cap of 19 in K-4. That'll probably change as the legislative efforts to dismantle public education continue at the state and federal level.

As far as pay goes, I do better than I did ten years ago when I started. it's not a factor in my choice of profession. That being said, I don't know if I'm underpaid, but on a comparitive basis it seems that many other professions (and jobs) overpay their employees. I won't begin to expound on the impact I make on many lives and many futures, that's just too touchy-feely, and as I said, the money is not a factor in my decision-making.

My district is making a good effort to enhance the use of technology, not by buying us all laptops, but through some equipment and lots of training. Using the technology as a tool for learning beyond the skill and drill of most educational software is our goal. Enhancing understanding (learning how to learn), improving communication, and fostering creativity, is this what you do with your technology? There's a continum of tech usage called LOTI (levels of tech. implementation) that I think defines this well for us. Critical and higher order thinking skills are worthy goals, and I work hard toward that end, but I'm also teaching the technology. Imagine trying to teach someone to write (alphabetic principle, phonics, penmanship), use those writing skills to write a novel, and then assess their own work critically, all in 9 months (which is not really as long as you might think). This is what incorporating technology into instruction is like. My students are also second language learners, and prone to many of the standard difficulties of their socioeconomic status as well. Oh, and then there's those troublesome standardized tests that God and George W. have mandated.They eat enormous chunks of time and enthusiasm even for those who don't teach to the test.

Despite all that I think my students are solidly grounded in technology and content.

I would know how to implement instruction with a laptop for every one of my students, but I concede that many teachers would not. Death, attrition, and retirement seem to be addressing this more quickly than you might think. Attracting quality teachers, and more inportantly, keeping them is a problem. Tenure shouldn't be such a dirty word. The experience in the classroom is vital, and I would venture that most teachers grow tremendously from it. Continuous professional development helps too. When I graduated from Stanford I was smart as hell and a terrible teacher my first day in a classroom. As the years have passed, I find myself, much like Mark Twain with his father, amazed at how much I've learned since then.

I kind of understand the anti-union sentiments, but I think their impact on the quality of teachers and education has been greatly distorted. The union is somewhat a neccessary evil to protect us from the incompetent (who always seem to rise to administrative levels), the irate (parents whose little prince or princess is lacking in work ethic or self control), and the frugal (citizenry who got their entitlement but don't want to give it to the next generation).

Finally, I don't understand the rabid hostility toward teachers that I see foaming from the mouth of lawmakers, the media, and in discussions like these. What, did y'all get whacked on the knuckles with a ruler in grade school by Miss Crabtree or something?

Very well said! Much better than my unfocused diatribes

[ManOfSteal]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Sorry to dump all over your ideas here man, I'm just pretty dark on this stuff and think that technology advocates, in many cases, have a warped and idealistic sense of reality.

Again, these are not my ideas. These are true factual ways in which using a technology resource (for example, an iBook) can and have been used to teach something "meaningful and lasting", which is what you asked for and I provided. You may disagree, and that is totally acceptable, but the fact is that this sort of technology resource is going to become more and more prevalent as technology moves forward. Right or wrong, get used to it.

[ManOfSteal]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I don't buy this. For one, most kids outside of these laptop-districts no doubt have access to computers in one way or another. If they really feel more comfortable writing on a computer, there is nothing stopping them from writing their papers on the computer regardless of a laptop deal.

I agree, the benefit of the laptop though is the ability to bring the work home and not confine yourself to a school settings/hours. Most of the kids do the research on the Internet at school and start the paper, only to expand on the paper and information at home as homework.

Furthermore, as much as I hate writing stuff on paper, I still can. Just as drawing is still taught to fine arts/graphic design majors, I think that handwriting is still an important skill.

As you state below, the computer is being used only as a tool/aid. If I what I said above portrayed that the kids no longer use paper/pencil, then I apologize. That is not the case!

Also, I think there is value in learning how to spell things correctly without relying on the spellcheck and being lazy and passive about accepting its recommendations.

Totally agree; however, I would also venture to say that the ability to "hear" your sentence being read back to you (via "Text to Speech") is something you cannot get from traditional methods. This is absolutely a mammoth step in the right direction for kids who need assistance in their cognitive skills.

This reminds me, the "Assistive Technology" aspect of the iBooks for kids with special needs has been incredible.

The computer is just a tool. It is not a magic literacy-creating wonder machine. I've worked in Journalism classes of a big 10 University and was quite taken aback by the poor writing skills of the students. Part of this can be attributed to years of lazy stream-of-consciousness email and instant messaging which the internet makes too easy to become second nature.

Exactly, the iBooks are being used as a tool, in conjunction with, traditional methods of teaching, NOT as a total replacement.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by gururafiki

One thing that I must point out is that people are making such a big deal about money. Having the resource of the internet is much cheaper than purchasing dictionaries, thesauruses, and encyclopedias every five years. The resources that are on the internet are priceless. I am speaking for students AND teachers. As a teacher, the internet makes it MUCH easier to share and create lesson plans, which improve the learning experience for the students.

ahhh... the whole e-book thing and its attractive promises.

E-books were all the rage in the 90s and basically flopped, you know why? Because people didn't stop to think that simply transcoding print to a computer screen doesn't make sense. The strengths of the print medium are the fact that you can sit down with a book, bring it with you, etc. The strengths of e-books include searching and up-to-the-minute information (like websites). Simply transcoding from print to a screen does not exploit the inherent strengths of the medium.

I'm not saying that E-books will never replace traditional textbooks, but it will be a while before we can transition to a business model of purchasing access to websites or PDFs (DRM-protected in the case of colleges where textbooks must be purchased) and making this a sensible part of a curriculum IMHO.

Even with all of these sorts of obstacles removed, there are many who would prefer actual print to reading stuff off of a screen. The E-book may never be preferred over print for the reasons I described above, although I can see it being forced on people someday due to some of the strengths you have alluded to.

My main point is that replacing textbooks is not a panacea.

It is true that many teachers do not have the complete knowledge of computers to take full advantage of their capabilities, but the problem in that lies the lack of training, not the stupidity of the teachers. The laptop deals for schools are great for education, and in every example I have seen, they have improved the quality of education for students and teachers. Although, each state and county is different, it is possible for a school district to misuse their resources, so I won't say it doesn't happen. But to say that all school laptop deals are "retarded" is slightly ignorant IMO. Especially when you are NOT a teacher.

My whole immediate, extended, and wife's family are all teachers, retired teachers, or former teachers. They share my viewpoints from their perspective, I have my own beliefs based on what they've told me and my own years of experience supporting technology and helping people along who are hopelessly behind the curve.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ManOfSteal

Again, these are not my ideas. These are true factual ways in which using a technology resource (for example, an iBook) can and have been used to teach something "meaningful and lasting", which is what you asked for and I provided. You may disagree, and that is totally acceptable, but the fact is that this sort of technology resource is going to become more and more prevalent as technology moves forward. Right or wrong, get used to it.

I'm used to the fact that this going on, but obviously I disagree very strongly with the direction we are going in.

I don't think I should "get used to it" if by that you mean don't even bother attempting to get us to step back and re-examine what it is that we're doing.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ManOfSteal

I agree, the benefit of the laptop though is the ability to bring the work home and not confine yourself to a school settings/hours. Most of the kids do the research on the Internet at school and start the paper, only to expand on the paper and information at home as homework.

I agree, but a very high percentage of households own a computer already. There are programs to provide computers to low-income students here at the University, I think this would work well for students within K-12 who need access to the internet and something to type on (let's face it, you can do this just fine with just about any computer that still runs reasonably well).

Totally agree; however, I would also venture to say that the ability to "hear" your sentence being read back to you (via "Text to Speech") is something you cannot get from traditional methods. This is absolutely a mammoth step in the right direction for kids who need assistance in their cognitive skills.

Technology has its uses for the disabled, I'll grant you that. There are lots of interesting input devices out there designed to be more accessible to people with disabilities, and many screen-reader software titles (including VoiceOver, which from what I gather is pretty top-notch!).

However, I don't see Text-to-speech being terribly helpful to students without disabilities, especially since its pronunciations and inflections are often pretty poor.

Exactly, the iBooks are being used as a tool, in conjunction with, traditional methods of teaching, NOT as a total replacement.

Agreed... I'm not denying that they can't be useful tools, but my main point is that in countless districts they are being prioritized over issues I consider far more pressing.

I think districts that have such a surplus of money that they can't imagine a better use for spending are the rare exception, especially as many states are feeling the budget crunch (as you may have heard, several are attempting to sue the administration over No Child Left Behind, although I'm not confident I'm clear on the finer details of this case to say more).

[ManOfSteal]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I don't think I should "get used to it" if by that you mean don't even bother attempting to get us to step back and re-examine what it is that we're doing.

No, the re-examining has already been done for a lot of districts. Hence, this "new" direction to go with the technology resources. The "get used to it" line is directed at the fact that if you think technology is taking the wrong steps now in school districts, then you are really going to be hurting as these type of implementations move forward year after year.

[Scotttheking]

note to self: reply to this thread when more conscious (ie: not graduation night)

Enjoy your discussion folks.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ManOfSteal

No, the re-examining has already been done for a lot of districts. Hence, this "new" direction to go with the technology resources. The "get used to it" line is directed at the fact that if you think technology is taking the wrong steps now in school districts, then you are really going to be hurting as these type of implementations move forward year after year.

Who has done this re-examination and who has ultimately made these decisions?

Teachers? Politicians? Administrators out of touch with what is happening in the classroom? I'm not convinced that it is the teachers, generally speaking.

[ManOfSteal]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I agree, but a very high percentage of households own a computer already. There are programs to provide computers to low-income students here at the University, I think this would work well for students within K-12 who need access to the internet and something to type on (let's face it, you can do this just fine with just about any computer that still runs reasonably well).

Having a computer at home already has absolutely no bearing on anything. A school provided laptop consists of the necessary programs (that "home" machines would not have). I know I would prefer to have my own laptop than to fight big brother/sister, Mom and Dad for the computer/Internet at home each night.

However, I don't see Text-to-speech being terribly helpful to students without disabilities, especially since its pronunciations and inflections are often pretty poor.

You mean the "built-in" OS X pronunciations and inflections are pretty poor. Trust me, many 3rd-party voiceovers and technologies are much better than what Apple offers out of the box. All students were using this technology, no matter of disabilities or not.

Agreed... I'm not denying that they can't be useful tools, but my main point is that in countless districts they are being prioritized over issues I consider far more pressing.

Well, of course. But that will never change, because everybody has their own opinions on what is "pressing" or not.

[ManOfSteal]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Who has done this re-examination and who has ultimately made these decisions?

Teachers? Politicians? Administrators out of touch with what is happening in the classroom? I'm not convinced that it is the teachers, generally speaking.

The idea of needing to improve literacy and wanting to place a laptop in the hands of every 4th, 5th, and 6th grader was the idea of the school board (and most definitely the Superintendent at the time). After re-examining test results from years past, the data showed that literacy was in need of improvement. The idea of using the iBook as an aid to improve that, along with the other added benefits, was a direction they wanted to try out. So far (after 2 years of implementation), the results have been very positive.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ManOfSteal

Having a computer at home already has absolutely no bearing on anything. A school provided laptop consists of the necessary programs (that "home" machines would not have). I know I would prefer to have my own laptop than to fight big brother/sister, Mom and Dad for the computer/Internet at home each night.

But the big, significant uses for the technology is internet stuff, and typing. Each computer that is shipped has some sort of means to handle these tasks.

In the case of some of your other examples (e.g. iMovie), your point is well taken, but I would venture a guess that most schools teaching or intending to teach computers in the classes would be using apps that are either widely available or have widely available alternatives (either pre-installed or available as open source).

You mean the "built-in" OS X pronunciations and inflections are pretty poor. Trust me, many 3rd-party voiceovers and technologies are much better than what Apple offers out of the box. All students were using this technology, no matter of disabilities or not.

Cool... I didn't know that!

[ManOfSteal]

Originally Posted by besson3c

But the big, significant uses for the technology is internet stuff, and typing. Each computer that is shipped has some sort of means to handle these tasks.

In the case of some of your other examples (e.g. iMovie), your point is well taken, but I would venture a guess that most schools teaching or intending to teach computers in the classes would be using apps that are either widely available or have widely available alternatives (either pre-installed or available as open source).

So if a teacher were to assign a homework assignment to do research and type up a paper, you would expect them to use their home computer and Internet, correct? How would they get that data/project back to school? Print it? Does everybody have a printer? Burn to CD? Floppy? No, too many viruses on "home" machines. Let alone, not everybody has a computer and the ability to get on the Internet at home, whereas, with the laptop, they definitely have access to a computer at all times at home.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ManOfSteal

So if a teacher were to assign a homework assignment to do research and type up a paper, you would expect them to use their home computer and Internet, correct? How would they get that data/project back to school? Print it? Does everybody have a printer? Burn to CD? Floppy? No, too many viruses on "home" machines. Let alone, not everybody has a computer and the ability to get on the Internet at home, whereas, with the laptop, they definitely have access to a computer at all times at home.

The same way we have been doing for years, and the same as I did when I was a K-12 student:

Those with access to a computer and printer can type their assignments and submit them on paper. Those who don't write out their assignments on paper.

[ManOfSteal]

Originally Posted by besson3c

The same way we have been doing for years, and the same as I did when I was a K-12 student:

Those with access to a computer and printer can type their assignments and submit them on paper. Those who don't write out their assignments on paper.

Sure, and that is done quite often...both at home, and especially when an iBook was in need of repair and the student had to do without it for a few days.

[gururafiki]

Originally Posted by besson3c

ahhh... the whole e-book thing and its attractive promises.

E-books were all the rage in the 90s and basically flopped, you know why? Because people didn't stop to think that simply transcoding print to a computer screen doesn't make sense. The strengths of the print medium are the fact that you can sit down with a book, bring it with you, etc. The strengths of e-books include searching and up-to-the-minute information (like websites). Simply transcoding from print to a screen does not exploit the inherent strengths of the medium.

I'm not saying that E-books will never replace traditional textbooks, but it will be a while before we can transition to a business model of purchasing access to websites or PDFs (DRM-protected in the case of colleges where textbooks must be purchased) and making this a sensible part of a curriculum IMHO.

Even with all of these sorts of obstacles removed, there are many who would prefer actual print to reading stuff off of a screen. The E-book may never be preferred over print for the reasons I described above, although I can see it being forced on people someday due to some of the strengths you have alluded to.

My main point is that replacing textbooks is not a panacea.

Yes, replacing textbooks in not necessary, and should never happen (IMO). And I do not want to make it seem that I think all dictionaries, thesauruses, and encyclopedias should be replaced with computers. However, in a Language Arts classroom of 30+ kids, for instance, there are only 10 dictionaries to go around. In a math class there are 20+ kids, but only 15 books. And when a class project requires everyone to do research on the same topic, the school library may only have 5 copies of a book covering the subject, and the public library may only have 5 copies of the book. In each class I mentioned, there is a shortage of resources for the students.

Laptops open a floodgate of resources that can be easily shared. Yes, some of the resources are not credible, and relying on only computers and the internet for information is too easy. This is why it is up to the teachers to require sources from more than one place. If the teacher uses the technology correctly, then it can greatly improve the learning process for the students.

[ManOfSteal]

Originally Posted by gururafiki

Laptops open a floodgate of resources that can be easily shared. Yes, some of the resources are not credible, and relying on only computers and the internet for information is too easy. This is why it is up to the teachers to require sources from more than one place. If the teacher uses the technology correctly, then it can greatly improve the learning process for the students.

Exactly. One of the most often used programs in the iBook initiative I worked with was "World Book: 2005". Awesome stuff, much better than what the actual World Book text book can cover, since the program has streaming video, interactive learning/history games, more up-do-date content updated every few weeks, and great printing features so you can share the data.

This application, coupled with very specific "Student Resources" (built-in Safari bookmarks that linked to educational sites/research sites) were amazing tools. If a teacher was wanting to do something about "Egypt", the teacher would find sites that she wanted the kids to use and learn from. In turn, the teacher would inform the Technology Department of what sites she deemed useful and accurate for the kids to access, and then the "Student Resources" Web-page was updated with those specific links.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ManOfSteal

Exactly. One of the most often used programs in the iBook initiative I worked with was "World Book: 2005". Awesome stuff, much better than what the actual World Book text book can cover, since the program has streaming video, interactive learning/history games, more up-do-date content updated every few weeks, and great printing features so you can share the data.

This application, coupled with very specific "Student Resources" (built-in Safari bookmarks that linked to educational sites/research sites) were amazing tools. If a teacher was wanting to do something about "Egypt", the teacher would find sites that she wanted the kids to use and learn from. In turn, the teacher would inform the Technology Department of what sites she deemed useful and accurate for the kids to access, and then the "Student Resources" Web-page was updated with those specific links.

Steal: you've made some good points.

If I were to create this thread all over again, I would make it much less extreme in expressing the crux of my viewpoint. There are reasonable arguments that can be made against what I've said, as you've done.

That being said, I'm still in the "in many cases, these purchases are dumb and should be carefully re-examined" camp, but my position is not as absolute.

Perhaps we'll just have to agree to disagree on our basic stance(s) here... That's cool!

[Ganesha]

Originally Posted by besson3c

This does sound cool... cheaper than regular microscopes though? Cheaper than regular microscopes including the cost of the computer and software?.

As a former college level education and maintainer of science labs YES, its much cheaper to maintain a computer driven microscopes then a manually operated one (for freshmen level instruments at least).

Why? It's much harder for students to destroy or damage them. Sure they still get 'messed up' from time to time, but not in a way you have the replace parts on them.

It also speeds up the process of data collection and allows everyone in the group to see the same thing at the same time, which allows them to point at things and discuss.

[ManOfSteal]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Perhaps we'll just have to agree to disagree on our basic stance(s) here... That's cool!

It's been a fun discussion to say the least!

[ManOfSteal]

Originally Posted by just a poster

Anyway, how restrictive are those computers anyway? Are kids getting admin accounts or are they limited to a "Microsoft Office" sandbox.

Heavily. Just a standard "Managed" account, no admin privileges. Every iBook was "managed" by the local building Xserve. Meaning, everytime you logged into the machine at school, it would authenticate against the Xserve/OS X Server "Managed Preferences" file and make any necessary changes. These preferences would then be cached onto the local client machine so they stay that way when off the network (home). This is also referred to as, "Mobile Accounts" on the OS X Server side of things.

[BoomStick]

The funding for computers come from Title1 federal funding that MUST be used to by technology items for students.

I work in a large school system and work with these processes every day.

[ManOfSteal]

Originally Posted by BoomStick

The funding for computers come from Title1 federal funding that MUST be used to by technology items for students.

True for most cases; however, in the case of the District I'm speaking of, the $6.6 million project was funded through local property taxes.

[BoomStick]

That's general fund, very unusual since it's a set amount in the first place and usually totally allocated with zero to spare.

Are you sure it wasn't SPLOST fundung?

[ManOfSteal]

Originally Posted by BoomStick

That's general fund, very unusual since it's a set amount in the first place and usually totally allocated with zero to spare.

Are you sure it wasn't SPLOST fundung?

Positive. The District draws property-tax dollars from high-paying retail and office properties in the area, and that is what funded the project (initially at least).