[Cody Dawg]

A satellite toll for UK drivers.

British motorists face paying a new charge for every mile they drive in a revolutionary scheme to be introduced within two years.

Drivers will pay according to when and how far they travel throughout the country's road network under proposals being developed by the Government.

Alistair Darling, the Secretary of State for Transport, revealed that pilot areas will be selected in just 24 months' time as he made clear his determination to press ahead with a national road pricing scheme.

Each of Britain's 24 million vehicles would be tracked by satellite if a variable "pay-as-you-drive" charge replaces the current road tax.

I thought I'd heard it all by now. I guess not.

What about visitors to the country? I guess they'll pay also? This is so, uh, 1984-ish.

[Mastrap]

Wow. I really can't see that take off. I can hear the howls of protest already.

However, once you think of it, It makes perfect sense. The UK is a small country with ridiculously overcrowded roads. Currently the annual road tax stands at about £140 or $300, if I remember correctly. If a 'pay per mile' tax is substituted then there would be a real incentive to leave the car at home more often and either take public transport, ride a bike or just walk.
A couple of years ago a £5.00 congestion charge was introduced for drivers taking their car into central London. The first day was heaven. I lived inside the area covered and you could really see the difference. No traffic jams, cleaner air, less noise.

The main concern I would have is not so much the cost, but the protection of privacy.

[zerostar]

Why should everyone be paying the tax when the fact is some people use the roads every day, some people use them a few times a month.

As far as privacy, I have a sun-pass to pay for tolls, and it keeps track of my driving habits but only through the toll plazas.

Perhaps they could do something to this affect, and not monitor you the whole time?

[Fozz_uk]

While I agree that congestion charges in city centres make perfect sense, I really don't see it working out here in the countryside. Currently, my nearest bus stop is about a 1.5 miles away (the trip into the local major town taking 45 minutes, whereas it takes 15 by car) and the nearest station is about 5 miles. Using public transport is a lovely idea, but to anyone but the most comitteed it's totally impractical, especially if I now have to pay to drive to the station to use it.

The goverment continually expect us to give up our cars, while providing no alternative. Sort that out first, then phase out the car.

[Millennium]

Ah, punitiv taxation again. Abomination.

[zerostar]

Originally Posted by Fozz_uk

The goverment continually expect us to give up our cars, while providing no alternative. Sort that out first, then phase out the car.

You have an alternative, you can spend the 10 minutes walking to the station, and the extra 30 min getting in to the city, or do you expect curbside hyper-speed train to your destination?

[Mastrap]

Fozz does have a point. Under Thatcher, and subsequent conservative governments, public transport in the country has been all but destroyed. Branch lines were closed, buses run once, maybe twice a day in the smaller towns and villages. The car is a necessity when living there.
However, by adjusting the pricing these issues can be addressed. I think think this is a really interesting development that I'll be watching closely.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Millennium

Ah, punitiv taxation again. Abomination.

It's the only thing that appears to be working. Decades of appeals to London drivers had no result. Introducing the congestion charge reduced traffic by 15-20% in one year. To give you an idea on how bad the pollution in London was: Cycling through the city for a day was the equivalent of smoking 20 cigarettes.

[Eriamjh]

24 million GPSs? And just how will they keep track and pay for all this?

Increase the gas tax!

[wulf]

Well, they are already talking about charging different rates depending on the time of day and usage of road. E.g., to drive a few miles to your nearest town in a very rural area would likely be taxed cheaply, using the most popular motorway at peak-time on a bank holiday would be more expensive.

The idea has some merit from the point of view of fairness - those who drive less pay less - and for some kind of move toward environmental accountability. I can see it would be a bitter pill to swallow though, especially for drivers in the US where cheap gas and cheap cars are seen more as a right than a privilege. Of course, it would never happen in the US.

Ultimately this government has a history of announcing expensive, grandiose schemes with an ambitious technological component which either fail spectacularly (various health service projects), or mushroom in cost so as to be unworkable in practice (happening now with the ID card system). So I don't have much confidence in this one.

[Cody Dawg]

And what will they do when people simply do not pay the tax? Refuse to pay? What is the penalty?

[The Godfather]

Originally Posted by Eriamjh

24 million GPSs? And just how will they keep track and pay for all this?

Increase the gas tax!

I am pretty sure a Government could get 24 million GPS car tracking devices at US$50-a-piece. They aren't that expensive in 2005.

[Randman]

Singapore, which has the same problem (little space, lots of cars), has a pretty effective way to try and slow down car ownership: Having to purchase certificates of ownership (COES, which is basically buying a license to buy a car) as well as the fees for entering certain parts of town (such as the business district on weekdays during business hours), which I think London has adopted. Doing some things along these lines makes more sense.

[The Godfather]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

And what will they do when people simply do not pay the tax? Refuse to pay? What is the penalty?

I guess they get stopped by a policeguy, then fined. You are asking easy questions Dawg

[The Godfather]

Originally Posted by Randman

Singapore, which has the same problem (little space, lots of cars), has a pretty effective way to try and slow down car ownership: Having to purchase certificates of ownership (COES, which is basically buying a license to buy a car) as well as the fees for entering certain parts of town (such as the business district on weekdays during business hours), which I think London has adopted. Doing some things along these lines makes more sense.

But that system won't charge less to those who drive less. There's no motivation to leave the car at home.

Any computerized system will be 1984ish. Why can't we look at the bigger benefits?

[Cody Dawg]

What do you mean they will be stopped by the police. The police are going to call in EVERY license plate when they see a car on the road to see if they have paid their toll fees?

[The Godfather]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

What do you mean they will be stopped by the police. The police are going to call in EVERY license plate when they see a car on the road to see if they have paid their toll fees?

They don't need to. With the new system, the delinquent cars will show as little red dots in the London map, in the cops computer Or they could mail you the fine, just like you do when you go past a toll without paying.

[Cody Dawg]

Actually, Florida has one of the worst toll systems in the U.S.

I have a "Sun Pass" which puts all tolls on the company I do work for and half the time it doesn't beep when I go through the toll and I've never been mailed anything at all.

But, I gotcha Godfather.

[itistoday]

Damn those Red Coats, always at it with the taxes...

[Hugi]

We have a similar tax in Iceland, i.e. a road tax, but it is added to the price of gasoline. I think it's a much better solution since it does not require any satellite technology and encourages people to drive more fuel efficient cars.
But of course, as a result, gasoline is rather expensive up here ($1,5 for a litre of 98 octan)

[Thorin]

I'm against this for the reasons that Wulf has mentioned (and don't even get me started on ID cards ). The easiest way to get around this is to abolish road tax, hike up fuel duty further, and then offer rebates or discounts to people who live in rural areas with no public transport. There you go, the people who drive the furthest, in the most fuel inefficient cars pay the highest tax, the people who drive the least in the most fuel efficient cars pay the least. Problem solved, and not one black box or satellite required.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

This is so, uh, 1984-ish.

Oh the irony

[The Godfather]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Actually, Florida has one of the worst toll systems in the U.S.

I have a "Sun Pass" which puts all tolls on the company I do work for and half the time it doesn't beep when I go through the toll and I've never been mailed anything at all.

But, I gotcha Godfather.

Sacre bleu! You should call the newspaper and make them investigate that Sunpass system. Why should you get the 50% discount while I, the coin payer, don't???

[The Godfather]

Originally Posted by Thorin

I'm against this for the reasons that Wulf has mentioned (and don't even get me started on ID cards ). The easiest way to get around this is to abolish road tax, hike up fuel duty further, and then offer rebates or discounts to people who live in rural areas with no public transport. There you go, the people who drive the furthest, in the most fuel inefficient cars pay the highest tax, the people who drive the least in the most fuel efficient cars pay the least. Problem solved, and not one black box or satellite required.

That's a very sensible alternative. Better than the GPS system too.

[macmad]

I think the UK road tax is 140 pounds per year. Say the average Joe drives 12,000 miles per year, so at 1.40 per mile, that would be 16800 pounds a year - an increase of 16660 pounds!

If different roads carry different charges, eg 140p for a motorway and 20p for a B road, the M25 and M1 (etc) will be virtually empty (except for the rich) and the B roads will be full.

This idea will kill tourism, weekend family trips, visiting family etc.

[:XI:]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

What do you mean they will be stopped by the police. The police are going to call in EVERY license plate when they see a car on the road to see if they have paid their toll fees?

They'll take it out of our pay packets every month.

Oh, you think I'm joking?

[:XI:]

Originally Posted by macmad

This idea will kill tourism, weekend family trips, visiting family etc.

And why not? They've killed everything else.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

And what will they do when people simply do not pay the tax? Refuse to pay? What is the penalty?

You can't refuse paying your taxes. If you don't pay your taxes then the nice tax man comes a long and sells all your belongings untill they have enough to pay for your taxes. Simple as that. Or they just take it from your paycheck.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Millennium

Ah, punitiv taxation again. Abomination.

What is "punitive" about charging those who actually use and deteriorate roads?

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by analogika

What is "punitive" about charging those who actually use and deteriorate roads?

Well, the taxes will probably end up being waaaaay more than the current road tax.

[ajprice]

Brilliant! . The day after I get my first car, they announce that they want me to pay to drive it on roads!

I saw this on the news yesterday, they said the prices will range from 2p for a quiet road to £1.30 ish for the M25 in rush hour! Well at least I don't live in London!

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

Well, the taxes will probably end up being waaaaay more than the current road tax.

But then, those who don't drive at all, or who drive very little, will have to pay considerably less.

If I ride my bike all the time, only using a car for those rare moments when I actually *need* it, why should I pay the same taxes for a road system that I hardly use (and thus hardly damage)?

Don't tell me that I benefit from it by every product I buy at the supermarket: transport cost is recouped via sales price.

[Randman]

How much more traffic can the Tube accommodate?

[PurpleGiant]

Originally Posted by ajprice

The day after I get my first car, they announce that they want me to pay to drive it on roads!

You already pay to drive it on the road. Except at the moment, you pay the same amount whether you actually drive on them or not.

[Mastrap]

The simple fact is that there are already too many cars on the road in the UK. I think anyone who has ever lived there, or still lives there, can attest to that. If car ownership isn't curbed in some way the country will come to a standstill in the foreseeable future.
I think that some sort of 'pay per mile driven' tax is an excellent idea but the prices currently quoted appear to be very, very high.

[macmad]

Originally Posted by analogika

If I ride my bike all the time, only using a car for those rare moments when I actually *need* it, why should I pay the same taxes for a road system that I hardly use (and thus hardly damage)?

Where will you ride your bike, on the roads that you hardly use?

[Gee4orce]

I wonder how long it will take the black market to work out how to disable these devices ? A few weeks, tops.

And, of course, the next step will be to monitor every driver's speed, all the time. No more need for the hated speed cameras, instead you'll just get a nice fine incorporated into your road tax, for every single time you exceed the speed limit.

As for adding a tax to fuel - erm, we have that already. The UK has some of the most expensive fuel prices in the world, and it's mostly tax. Deisel in my areas is about £0.90/litre at the moment - I think that works out to $1.88/gallon.

The big problem with this whole idea is not the fact they are crushing car drivers - rightly so I say, we all use our cars too much - but the real issue is that there really is no alternative. The public transport system in the UK is such a bad joke that it stopped being funny years ago.

[Thorin]

Originally Posted by Randman

How much more traffic can the Tube accommodate?

I'm not certain, but I would guess not much more at peak times, and a lot more at other times.

If I'm trying to travel from the outskirts of Coventry into the city centre to work, or from Coventry to Birmingham to go shopping at the weekend, that's pretty irrelevant though. The tube is probably oneo f the best utilised examples of public transport in the whole country (imo).

[Thorin]

Originally Posted by Gee4orce

As for adding a tax to fuel - erm, we have that already. The UK has some of the most expensive fuel prices in the world, and it's mostly tax. Deisel in my areas is about £0.90/litre at the moment - I think that works out to $1.88/gallon.

Rather than charging people to drive on different roads and using some highly advanced, highly expensive, highly prone to failure satellite tracking system, they could abolish road tax and increase fuel duty. That way you would not be penalised at all for driving a car, but only for driving it, and the more fuel you use while driving it, the more tax you pay. Sounds good to me.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by macmad

Where will you ride your bike, on the roads that you hardly use?

If you tried to use tolls to actually cover the entire cost of road construction, there would be a HUGE outcry. If you think tolls in Spain and France are high, i'd venture that's nothing against what driving there would cost if the rest of the road network weren't MASSIVELY subsidized by other taxes.

The same will be true in the UK. People who don't drive cars are already paying for roads, even without the "road tax".

And considering that cars actually damage the asphalt they drive on (though not nearly as heavily as trucks), and bikes don't: yes, riding a bike on the road I'm paying for with my taxes is indeed "hardly using" it. I'm not substantially causing maintenence costs with my bicycle.

[:XI:]

Originally Posted by Randman

How much more traffic can the Tube accommodate?

Don't be silly!
















You'll never get a car on tube.

[Randman]

[philm]

Originally Posted by Gee4orce

As for adding a tax to fuel - erm, we have that already. The UK has some of the most expensive fuel prices in the world, and it's mostly tax. Deisel in my areas is about £0.90/litre at the moment - I think that works out to $1.88/gallon.

£0.90 per litre = ~£4 per gallon =~ US$7 per gallon, something like that.

That said, I think the polluters should pay. I have no problem with high costs for fuel.

[macmad]

~ US$7 per gallon (for Diesel), and I think 78% of that is tax!

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by analogika

But then, those who don't drive at all, or who drive very little, will have to pay considerably less.

If I ride my bike all the time, only using a car for those rare moments when I actually *need* it, why should I pay the same taxes for a road system that I hardly use (and thus hardly damage)?

Don't tell me that I benefit from it by every product I buy at the supermarket: transport cost is recouped via sales price.

They are talking about around €2/mile that's, say €3/km. An average person that drives 25000km/year would end up paying €75000 without even adding the cost of fuel and maintenance. That is about 3x the average income of person in Belgium. Nobody would be able to afford such a tax. It's ridiculous. You can't just force people to take the inadequate public transport. Even here, were we have a very good public transport system, taking the bus wastes hooooouuurs of your time. It would have a huge impact on the economy if we were to deny people access to their cars, which this tax essentially does with the ridiculously high cost.
Maybe a system that offers you tax breaks if you drive little (and can prove it) are in order. And a bit more tax if you drive a lot. And people who don't drive are a non-issue since they don't pay road tax anyway.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

They are talking about around €2/mile that's, say €3/km.

No, they are not.

They are talking about UP TO €2/mile.

And people who don't drive are indeed part of the discussion, since currently, they are paying disproportionately for roads that they don't - or rarely - use.

The issue is people who drive too much, though they wouldn't need to. At some point, the road system simply won't scale up any further - it gets expensive, traffic flow doesn't get any better, and the upkeep in maintenance becomes impossible to manage.

So the only option is to scale down traffic by weeding out *unnecessary* drives.

[Mediaman_12]

The best thing is. GPS road pricing + Government ID cards = All government agencys knowing where you are and what you are doing.
I am not usually paranoid, but I don't like the sound of that. They are also saying it will be 'revinue nutral', Car tax get's srapped and fuel duty will be reduced. But one it's in place things can change.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by analogika

No, they are not.

They are talking about UP TO €2/mile.

Which is still too much. Even it were €1 or €0.5 it would still be rediculously high. And you can bet on it that IF they go through with this that they will do everything to come close to that €2/mile.

And people who don't drive are indeed part of the discussion, since currently, they are paying disproportionately for roads that they don't - or rarely - use.

How are they paying too much ? They don't pay road tax. And if you are talking about the part of their income tax that is used for the road infrastructure, well the busses need roads, no ? I must add that I have no idea whatsoever on what percentage of your income tax is used for roads.

The issue is people who drive too much, though they wouldn't need to.

I agree that a lot of people who live really close to their work location should not take their car to get there. But most of the people don't live close to where they work and public transport is ineffecient. Not every city has a complete subway network and not everybody lives in the city. no?

[macmad]

Driving in London is already a sport reserved for the rich (never mind parking), and now they want to do the same thing country wide. Great! 5% will enjoy empty roads for their BMW's - while the other 95% is either riding a bike, waiting for a bus, or staying at home.

[macmad]

Originally Posted by Mediaman_12

The best thing is. GPS road pricing + Government ID cards = All government agencys knowing where you are and what you are doing.
I am not usually paranoid, but I don't like the sound of that.

Yes, I agree this is scary. No need for speed cameras anymore either - they'll always know where you've been, where you are, and how fast you're travelling.