[zerostar]

Since this was a very hot topic recently, I think the autopsy results are quite interesting. Especially with some people blaming Michael for her condition in the first place and calling him abusive, etc.

According to : http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/06/15....ap/index.html

LARGO, Florida (AP) -- Terri Schiavo did not suffer any trauma prior to her 1990 collapse and her brain was about half of normal size when she died, according to results released Wednesday of an autopsy conducted on the severely brain-damaged woman.

Pinellas-Pasco Medical Examiner Jon Thogmartin concluded that there was no evidence of strangulation or other trauma leading to her collapse.

He also said she did not appear to have suffered a heart attack and there was no evidence that she was given harmful drugs or other substances prior to her death.

Autopsy results on the 41-year-old brain damaged woman were made public Wednesday, more than two months after Schiavo's death ended an internationally watched right-to-die battle that engulfed the courts, Congress and the White House and divided the country.

She died from dehydration, he said.

He said she would not have been able to eat or drink if she had been given food by mouth as her parents' requested.

"Removal of her feeding tube would have resulted in her death whether she was fed or hydrated by mouth or not," Thogmartin told reporters.

Thogmartin said that Schiavo's brain was about half of its expected size when she died March 31 in a Pinellas Park hospice, 13 days after her feeding tube was removed.

"The brain weighed 615 grams, roughly half of the expected weight of a human brain. ... This damage was irreversible, and no amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons."

[awaspaas]

Take that, Tom DeLay and Bill Frist!

[zerostar]

Furthermore, a report here: http://ap.lancasteronline.com/4/schiavo_autopsy
Claims "that she had massive and irreversible brain damage and was blind"

So much for the "she was following the balloon around with her eyes part"

[Mithras]

Liberal activist medical examiners! What is this country coming to?

[Mastrap]

Maybe now she can finally rest in peace.

[Randman]

Paging Cody Dawg.

Paging Budster.

[Eriamjh]

They'll just say the autotopsy was wrong.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Randman

Paging Cody Dawg.

Paging Budster.

Zimphire, call on line 2. Zimphire.

[krove]

LoL, olePigeon...

[brapper]

who's schiavo?

[turtle777]

A little OT: I want a beer.

-t

[Randman]

Flashback:

http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lounge/249085/terri-schiavo-stephen-hawking-starve-em/

http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lounge/250613/terri-schiavo-has-died/

http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lounge/251156/terris-parents-sell-list-of-supporters/

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Maybe now she can finally rest in peace.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Zimphire, call on line 2. Zimphire.

Huh? I didn't have any opinion either way.

I actually don't believe in letting people live through life support for long periods of time.

Quote from said thread

I am not siding either way BTW, I don't think anyone should have the "right" to let someone die, but then again, I don't think she should be kept alive just with machines.

Esp for that long. I know I personally would want them to take me off of the machines, and if I die I die. If I don't, I don't.

Sometimes it's better to let "nature" take it's course. No matter how hard it is to let go.

Aim that knee somewhere else.

[RIRedinPA]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Maybe now she can finally rest in peace.

I am sure she already is...now if only the rest of us could let it go.

[mdc]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Maybe now she can finally rest in peace.

and maybe this debate can too

[BlueSky]

[codydawg]

Well, there's no doubt in my mind that her brain was half its expected weight because that cad of a husband of hers was CHEATING ON HER AND MAKING BASTARD BABIES.

Women have a way of KNOWING these things and brain-shrinkage is often the result.

I know this because my friend Steve Jobs has a friend who knows a nurse who knows Mr. Schiavo, and he said Sean Penn may have had a hand in this, due to his commie-liberal mouthing off and abuse of his former wife Madonna, and now Madonna's brain is shrinking from years of abuse. I made a personal phone call to Sean Penn but he wouldn't take my call, which only shows one thing:

Germany loves David Hasselhoff.



[/codydawg]

[zigzag]

deleted because Bluesky's post was funnier and I posted before I saw it

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Bluesky

[codydawg]<--->[/codydawg]

Harsh but

[saddino]

Originally Posted by Bluesky

[codydawg]
[/codydawg]

Ah, but, you forgot to add a handul of and end with a

[ASIMO]

This thread makes me thirsty.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Bluesky

[codydawg]
Germany loves David Hasselhoff.
[/codydawg]

Yeah, that's right, those liberal bast....., uhm, no, wait...

-t

[TheMosco]

Originally Posted by Bluesky

[codydawg]
cut
[/codydawg]

That was amazing.

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by saddino

Ah, but, you forgot to add a handul of and end with a

Ah, you're right. Fixed!

[Randman]

Originally Posted by Bluesky

[codydawg]

Well, there's no doubt in my mind that her brain was half its expected weight because that cad of a husband of hers was CHEATING ON HER AND MAKING BASTARD BABIES.

Women have a way of KNOWING these things and brain-shrinkage is often the result.

I know this because my friend Steve Jobs has a friend who knows a nurse who knows Mr. Schiavo, and he said Sean Penn may have had a hand in this, due to his commie-liberal mouthing off and abuse of his former wife Madonna, and now Madonna's brain is shrinking from years of abuse. I made a personal phone call to Sean Penn but he wouldn't take my call, which only shows one thing:

Germany loves David Hasselhoff.



[/codydawg]

[codydawg] Great post! [/codydawg]

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

Aim that knee somewhere else.

Oops, I ment to knee SuperChicken in the nuts.

[chris v]

Originally Posted by Bluesky

[codydawg]

Well, there's no doubt in my mind that her brain was half its expected weight because that cad of a husband of hers was CHEATING ON HER AND MAKING BASTARD BABIES.

Women have a way of KNOWING these things and brain-shrinkage is often the result.

I know this because my friend Steve Jobs has a friend who knows a nurse who knows Mr. Schiavo, and he said Sean Penn may have had a hand in this, due to his commie-liberal mouthing off and abuse of his former wife Madonna, and now Madonna's brain is shrinking from years of abuse. I made a personal phone call to Sean Penn but he wouldn't take my call, which only shows one thing:

Germany loves David Hasselhoff.



[/codydawg]

I bow in humbled awe. Psot of the week.

[boots]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Oops, I ment to knee SuperChicken in the nuts.

That's assuming he has some.



(Sorry, SuperChicken. I couldn't help myself.)

[Apple Pro Underwear]

She's been dead for months now... isn't that better than her still being on the feeding tube? According to her faith, she's in heaven now. They should have done this year's ago.

I still don't understand why people would argue against the feeding tube removal.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by Apple Pro Underwear

She's been dead for months now...

It's probably been years.

[Hugi]

I seem to be laughing a bit too hard right now, seeing as how this thread is about a dead lady (one who I feel very sorry for, at that).

[spatterson]

Originally Posted by Mithras

Liberal activist medical examiners! What is this country coming to?

[Randman]

I still wanna hear from Cody Dawg and Budster and all the others.

When they're doing eating crow.

[AKcrab]

All this thread needs is MOS and Carly, and it's totally in my top 5.

[Cody Dawg]

bluesky
Well, there's no doubt in my mind that her brain was half its expected weight because that cad of a husband of hers was CHEATING ON HER AND MAKING BASTARD BABIES.

Women have a way of KNOWING these things and brain-shrinkage is often the result.

I know this because my friend Steve Jobs has a friend who knows a nurse who knows Mr. Schiavo, and he said Sean Penn may have had a hand in this, due to his commie-liberal mouthing off and abuse of his former wife Madonna, and now Madonna's brain is shrinking from years of abuse. I made a personal phone call to Sean Penn but he wouldn't take my call, which only shows one thing:

Germany loves David Hasselhoff.

bluesky, I never said any of those things. I find it sad that you think it is amusing to make a joke out of someone's misfortune and death.

Do I still think it was wrong to starve a woman to death?

YES.

I think it's wrong to starve someone to death because her body doesn't fit the parameters of what some people consider is normal (her husband who was living with another woman and having children with that person which presented a conflict of interest to me, IMO) and because there was some doubt as to her mental capacities.

Why can't people live with the fact that others have a difference of opinion and tell you why? Some of you (bluesky) think it's funny that we have an opinion that is averse to your own.

HA. HA.

I have multiple sclerosis. I am fairly healthy right now as I have the relapsing remitting form of the disease which comes and goes. I've had it for about 10 years and if you met me you'd never know that I have it. However, some people that I know have a different form of the disease, primary progressive, and their health has declined deeply since diagnosis and they are in wheelchairs and not very healthy, immobilized, and have other problems. I hate to think that someday people are going to be allowed to starve their spouses and loved ones because that person, through a neurological condition or otherwise, doesn't fit into the parameters of what they consider is "normal" and assumes that the person is brain dead. A person with ALS or Lou Gehrig's Disease (BTW, it strikes men twice as frequently than women) first experiences slight muscle weakness or muscle twitches and within 18 months is almost incapacitated and usually dies within 3 years - but the mind is as sharp as ever when the person is at the end of their life.

I think it is wrong to assume that a person's mind is gone when we do not know for sure and the person left no absolute instructions - written - as to their care in such a situation.

All of you who take these matters lightly need to reconsider your attitudes. Some of these neurological diseases strike without warning. There you are, healthy and in the prime of your life, and one day you wake up and maybe your left hand is weak or you have trouble swallowing or your balance is off or you're very tired. You go to the doctor and they do an MRI or a spinal tap and tell you that you have a neurological problem or disease that is chronic or progressive. You may find that you have ALS, which is incurable and devastating. Does that diminish your capacity as a human being?

In my eyes, no. I would be your advocate and have the same respect for you as before you were ill because I know, from personal experience and friends' experiences, that you are no different mentally than you were before the disease struck.

I hardly find mental incapacitation a laughing matter and as such, that is why I fought so hard in my arguments to say that we should always assume that the person who cannot speak for himself or herself would want to live and is mentally intact.

That is all.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

bluesky, I never said any of those things. I find it sad that you think it is amusing to make a joke out of someone's misfortune and death.

Do I still think it was wrong to starve a woman to death?

YES.

I think it's wrong to starve someone to death because her body doesn't fit the parameters of what some people consider is normal (her husband who was living with another woman and having children with that person which presented a conflict of interest to me, IMO) and because there was some doubt as to her mental capacities.

Why can't people live with the fact that others have a difference of opinion and tell you why? Some of you (bluesky) think it's funny that we have an opinion that is averse to your own.

HA. HA.

I have multiple sclerosis. I am fairly healthy right now as I have the relapsing remitting form of the disease which comes and goes. I've had it for about 10 years and if you met me you'd never know that I have it. However, some people that I know have a different form of the disease, primary progressive, and their health has declined deeply since diagnosis and they are in wheelchairs and not very healthy, immobilized, and have other problems. I hate to think that someday people are going to be allowed to starve their spouses and loved ones because that person, through a neurological condition or otherwise, doesn't fit into the parameters of what they consider is "normal" and assumes that the person is brain dead. A person with ALS or Lou Gehrig's Disease (BTW, it strikes men twice as frequently than women) first experiences slight muscle weakness or muscle twitches and within 18 months is almost incapacitated and usually dies within 3 years - but the mind is as sharp as ever when the person is at the end of their life.

I think it is wrong to assume that a person's mind is gone when we do not know for sure and the person left no absolute instructions - written - as to their care in such a situation.

All of you who take these matters lightly need to reconsider your attitudes. Some of these neurological diseases strike without warning. There you are, healthy and in the prime of your life, and one day you wake up and maybe your left hand is weak or you have trouble swallowing or your balance is off or you're very tired. You go to the doctor and they do an MRI or a spinal tap and tell you that you have a neurological problem or disease that is chronic or progressive. You may find that you have ALS, which is incurable and devastating. Does that diminish your capacity as a human being?

In my eyes, no. I would be your advocate and have the same respect for you as before you were ill because I know, from personal experience and friends' experiences, that you are no different mentally than you were before the disease struck.

I hardly find mental incapacitation a laughing matter and as such, that is why I fought so hard in my arguments to say that we should always assume that the person who cannot speak for himself or herself would want to live and is mentally intact.

That is all.

Would you have agreed in her case that a quick death would have been fine, say lethal injection?

[Randman]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Nonsense followed by more nonsense followed by another MS comment followed by missing the point totally.

So, you won't even accept fact? The autopsy proved she was brain dead and her body didn't suffer anguish in its death.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I hardly find mental incapacitation a laughing matter and as such, that is why I fought so hard in my arguments to say that we should always assume that the person who cannot speak for himself or herself would want to live and is mentally intact.

That is all.

well most of us disagree with you because we felt that all the steps were taken, and the tests that were done proved her condition were enough to proved her state over more than a decade.

either way, living like the way she was living IS NOT LIVING. it's called torture and she lived that way for more than a decade already. why would she want to stay alive? to lie in bed some more?


i agree with you that it is not funny, however people die in Iraq everyday. death in our age is no big deal IMO. i live in NYC and realize that i may get snuffed in a terror attack at any moment.

[Zimphire]

She should have never been kept alive for that long. End of story.

[Cody Dawg]

That is fine for all of YOU.

It may be okay for me also. I have a written directive. Written out and signed by myself.

I am not just talking about Terri but about a perception and an attitude for others.

You can't just go starving and dehydrating people because YOU decide that their quality of life "is not living."



You guys are the death squad. Seriously. Some of you pretend to be conservatives and you know what? You're not. You're fooling yourselves if you think you are. Conservatives err on the side of life.

Just remember your attitudes when you get sick and/or someone you care about is in poor health.

Athens
Would you have agreed in her case that a quick death would have been fine, say lethal injection?

Athens, I'm surprised at you. Your aunt had a chronic and/or terminal illness and I would expect more from you than a flippant comment about killing people with lethal injections.

Your attitude seems to be that she should have died a few years ago because, after all, she was terminal, right? Why not give your aunt a "lethal injection?" I mean, after all, then she wouldn't have suffered.

Where do you draw the line? THAT is my point. Who gets to decide who is suffering, beyond the point of hope, brain-dead, etc. What you may believe may not be what others believe.

[Cody Dawg]

Oh, and I'm not saying that she should have been kept alive longer.

You're missing my point entirely. I think there is a deeper - much deeper - issue.

[Mithras]

I thought conservatives erred on the side of the individual's personal freedom.
The only remaining question is who is a person, which pro-life conservatives answer one way, pro-choice another.

[Randman]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

You can't just go starving and dehydrating people because YOU decide that their quality of life "is not living."

No, that should be left up to the discretion of doctors and experts and the person's caregivers. All of whom, in this case, agreed with the final decision.

Some of you pretend to be conservatives and you know what? You're not. You're fooling yourselves if you think you are. Conservatives err on the side of life.

Conservatism and liberalism have nothing to do with medical fact. And the medical fact was that the body of Terri Schiavo was kept functioning for years even though her brain was dead. Her brain was half the size of a normal person's.

If you can going to bring politics into this, you should learn that the majority of American conservatists favor less governmental influence into the affairs of its citizens. Not the opposite which you are advocating.

Athens, I'm surprised at you. Your aunt had a chronic and/or terminal illness and I would expect more from you than a flippant comment about killing people with lethal injections.

You should learn the definition of flippant for Athens' post was hardly flippant.

Who gets to decide who is suffering, beyond the point of hope, brain-dead, etc.

Doctors, experts, caregivers. All of whom agreed with the final outcome.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I think it's wrong to starve someone to death because her body doesn't fit the parameters of what some people consider is normal (her husband who was living with another woman and having children with that person which presented a conflict of interest to me, IMO) and because there was some doubt as to her mental capacities.

There was doubt only among those with no grasp of medical science. The rest of us knew the body had been shown to be brain dead, as they've done yet another time now. I don't care how much alternative medicine hokum you buy into, there is no way to recover from your entire higher brain being gone.

[Randman]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Oh, and I'm not saying that she should have been kept alive longer.

No, that is exactly what you advocated. And the posts are there to prove it.

[Cody Dawg]

OOOOOOOOoooo.

"The posts are there to prove it."

Grow up. You are so childish sometimes.

[Randman]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Grow up. You are so childish sometimes.

No, what is childish you how you always post about some idiotic thing that has your coffee klatch up in arms. You never get the facts right and later when you're called on it, you try to backtrack and avoid admitting you were wrong.

[Mithras]

Oh boy, down the rabbit hole we go.

[Zimphire]

Just remember, somewhere, somehow, Terry is pointing and making fun of you all for arguing about this.

[effgee]

Originally Posted by Mithras

Oh boy, down the rabbit hole we go.

w00t!!



Where else would a thread like this one go? It is the lounge, after all.