[JoshuaZ]

So maybe the US should take a look at Brazil's oil policies. Sugar ethanol seems to be doing the job for them, and they pay half what we pay for gas at the pump. They will be completely self producing within like 5 years.

http://www.azcentral.com/business/ar...azil16-ON.html

SAO PAULO, Brazil -- While Americans fume at high gasoline prices, Carolina Rossini is the essence of Brazilian cool at the pump.

Like tens of thousands of her countrymen, she is running her zippy red Fiat on pure ethanol extracted from Brazilian sugar cane. On a recent morning in Brazil's largest city, the clear liquid was selling for less than half the price of gasoline, a sweet deal for the 26-year-old lawyer.

"You save money and you don't pollute as much," said Rossini, who paid about $18 to fill her nearly empty tank. "And it's a good thing that the product is made here."
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Three decades after the first oil shock rocked its economy, Brazil has nearly shaken its dependence on foreign oil. More vulnerable than even the United States when the 1973 Middle East oil embargo sent gas prices spiraling soaring, Brazil vowed to kick its import habit. Now the country that once relied on outsiders to supply 80 percent of its crude is projected to be self-sufficient within a few years.

Developing its own oil reserves was crucial to Brazil's long-term strategy. Its domestic petroleum production has increased sevenfold since 1980. But the Western Hemisphere's second-largest economy also has embraced renewable energy with a vengeance.

Today about 40 percent of all the fuel that Brazilians pump into their vehicles is ethanol, known here as alcohol, compared with about 3 percent in the United States. No other nation is using ethanol on such a vast scale. The change wasn't easy or cheap. But 30 years later, Brazil is reaping the return on its investment in energy security while the United States writes checks for $50-a-barrel foreign oil.

"Brazil showed it can be done, but it takes commitment and leadership," said Roland Hwang, vehicles policy director for the Natural Resources Defense Council in San Francisco. In the United States, "We're paying the highest prices at the pump since 1981, and we are sending over $100 billion overseas a year to import oil instead of keeping that money in the United States. ... Clearly Brazil has something to teach us."

Much of Brazil's ethanol usage stems from a government mandate requiring all gasoline to contain 25 percent alcohol. Vehicles that ran solely on ethanol fell out of favor here in the 1990s because of an alcohol shortage that pushed drivers back to gas-powered cars. But thanks to a new generation of vehicles that can run on gasoline, ethanol or any combination of those two fuels, more motorists such as Rossini are filling up with 100 percent alcohol again to beat high gas prices.

The exploding popularity of these "flex-fuel" vehicles is reverberating across Brazil's farming sector. Private investors are channeling billions of dollars into sugar and alcohol production, creating much-needed jobs in the countryside. Environmentalists support the expansion of this clean, renewable fuel that has helped improve air quality in Brazil's cities. Consumers are tickled to have a choice at the filling station.

Officials from other nations are flocking to Brazil to examine its methods. Most will find Brazil's sugar-fuel strategy impossible to replicate. Few countries possess the acreage and climate needed to produce sugar cane in gargantuan quantities, much less the infrastructure to get it to the pump.

Still, some Brazilians say that their government's commitment to ditching imports and to jump-starting homegrown energy industries were the real keys to Brazil's success.

"It's a combination of strong public policy and the free market," said Mauricio Tolmasquim, president of a federal energy research agency based in Rio de Janiero. "That's the Brazilian secret."

Brazil's fortunes have been tied to sugar since the Portuguese conquerors found that their tropical colony boasted ideal conditions for cultivating the tall, grassy plant. Brazilians produce and eat more cane sugar than any people on the planet, so the notion of using it to power their vehicles was a natural. After all, Henry Ford once viewed ethanol, which can be made from corn, barley and other crops, as a strong contender to fuel the Model T.

But the discovery of cheap, abundant petroleum changed everything. Like much of the rest of the world, Brazil guzzled imported crude until the 1970s oil shocks put its economy over a barrel. So totally reliant was Brazil on foreign oil that surging prices wreaked havoc on its balance of trade. That led to massive borrowing, huge deficits and, eventually, hyperinflation and a devaluation of its currency.

Thus the Brazilian government, then a military dictatorship, launched efforts in the mid-1970s to wean the nation off imports. Those efforts included its National Alcohol Program, known as Proalcool.

"To become less dependent was a matter of life and death," said Jose Goldemberg, secretary for the environment of the state of Sao Paulo.

With the help of public subsidies and tax breaks, farmers planted more sugar cane, investors built distilleries to convert the crop to ethanol and automakers designed cars to run on 100 percent alcohol. The government financed a mammoth distribution network to get the fuel to gas stations and kept alcohol prices low to entice consumers. It worked. By the mid-1980s, virtually all new cars sold in Brazil ran exclusively on ethanol.

But a 1989 shortage coupled with low gas prices soured many on the renewable fuel. Sales of alcohol-only cars tumbled in the 1990s, and the government gradually withdrew its subsidies and lifted price controls on ethanol. Demand stalled.

Some critics at the time chalked it up to the inevitable consequences of government meddling. But today many laud Brazil's Proalcool program for creating a viable domestic market for ethanol, and for spawning an industry with tremendous export potential that now employs more than 1 million Brazilians.

Meanwhile, ethanol remains little more than a boutique fuel in the United States. Although the United States is the world's second-largest ethanol maker, producing 3.4 billion gallons last year compared with around 4 billion gallons for Brazil, ethanol's main use is as a gasoline oxygenate to boost air quality rather than as a serious replacement for foreign oil. But high gas prices have some farm belt legislators pushing Congress to mandate greater use of domestic corn-based ethanol in the U.S. fuel supply to reduce oil consumption. Wednesday, the U.S. Senate backed a plan to mandate that at least 8 billion gallons of ethanol be added to the United States' gasoline supply annually by 2012.

Virtually all cars sold in the United States since the early 1980s can run on gasoline containing as much as 10 percent ethanol. In addition, there are an estimated 5 million "flex-fuel" vehicles already on U.S. roads that can burn a mixture as high as 85 percent ethanol. But big logistical and political hurdles remain. Only a few hundred of the nation's approximately 169,000 retail gas stations are equipped to sell so-called E85 fuel. Nationwide distribution would require station owners to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in special tanks and pumps.

Although U.S. ethanol makers say they could easily double their output to meet any increase in demand, experts say that's still a drop in the bucket compared with the tens of billions of gallons that would be needed annually to displace meaningful amounts of petroleum. The U.S. industry is loath to give up tariffs that protect it from cheaper alcohol from Brazil. Meanwhile, some environmentalists say feedstock such as grasses and municipal waste offer much more promise than corn. But huge investments in research are needed to bring the costs down for this so-called "cellulosic" ethanol.

What most can agree on is that Brazil is an example of what might have been if America had seriously committed itself 30 years ago to renewable energy.

"If we would have spent one-hundredth of the money that we have spent to send tanks around the world to protect our oil supplies ... we would already be using cellulosic ethanol," said Michael Bryan, chief executive of BBI International.

[Railroader]

It's nothing new here, GM is selling trucks that burn ethanol already. Michigan farmers are producing corn crop for production into ethanol to meet that demand.

Article. (Note the dateline)

GM TO MAKE FULL-SIZE PICKUP THAT RUNS ON ETHANOL
Jan 1, 2002 12:00 PM

General Motors Corp. said that Monsanto Co. has placed the first 50 orders for its new Chevrolet Silverado full-size pickup trucks that run on a blend of ethanol and gasoline.

GM, the world's largest automaker, said it will begin offering the so-called “flex fuel” option on the 1500 series Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra full-size pickup trucks with the 5300 Vortec engine in the first quarter of next year at a cost of around $250.

The trucks can run using E85, a blend of up to 85% ethanol and gasoline, or using pure gasoline. Ethanol, typically made from corn products, produces less air pollution than gasoline, and reduces the dependence on foreign oil, GM said.

General Motors also offers the Chevrolet S-10 and GMC Sonoma compact pickups, and Chevrolet Tahoe and Suburban and GMC Yukon and Yukon XL sport utility vehicles with E85 compatibility.

“We expect the demand in this area to grow,” said GM spokeswoman Denise Sedman....

[JoshuaZ]

But when was the last time you actually saw a gas station in the US where you could get 85% ethanol? Let along the majority of cars sold by a company running on a blend larger then 10%?

[ambush]

Amazing news... I hope the rest of the world follows their lead.

[Railroader]

Actually, they are following GM's lead in the United States of America. Hopefully everyone follows us.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by JoshuaZ

But when was the last time you actually saw a gas station in the US where you could get 85% ethanol? Let along the majority of cars sold by a company running on a blend larger then 10%?

I know of a few stations with special pumps. They aren't common, but hopefully they will become common.

[JoshuaZ]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Actually, they are following GM's lead in the United States of America. Hopefully everyone follows us.

Again, when has anyone in the US seen a gas station where you can buy a 50% = ethanol blend? Or seen a company completely switch to cars that run on the stuff? If the US had a demand the ethanol industry would rise to meet it, the problem is that no one in the US seems to care all that much about it. Ok, sure, GM sells a few cars. So what. Thats not creating demand, thats testing the market or attempting to be eco-friendly to gain government grants or tax breaks. Until there is a massive movement in the US we will never be anywhere near as sufficient as Brazil is now.

Shoot, it took them 30 years to get that way. We're still what, 20+ years away right now?

Clearly no one needs to follow the US on this one. Follow Brazil. They're the ones actually doing something.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by JoshuaZ

Again, when has anyone in the US seen a gas station where you can buy a 50% = ethanol blend?

Yesterday when I was filling up.

Originally Posted by JoshuaZ

Or seen a company completely switch to cars that run on the stuff? If the US had a demand the ethanol industry would rise to meet it, the problem is that no one in the US seems to care all that much about it. Ok, sure, GM sells a few cars.

A few? 5 million is a few? It's only a $250 option. Actually, GM provides it standard on most trim lines that are above the base model for their trucks.

Originally Posted by JoshuaZ

So what. Thats not creating demand, thats testing the market or attempting to be eco-friendly to gain government grants or tax breaks. Until there is a massive movement in the US we will never be anywhere near as sufficient as Brazil is now.

Shoot, it took them 30 years to get that way. We're still what, 20+ years away right now?

Clearly no one needs to follow the US on this one. Follow Brazil. They're the ones actually doing something.

From your article: "Wednesday, the U.S. Senate backed a plan to mandate that at least 8 billion gallons of ethanol be added to the United States' gasoline supply annually by 2012.

Virtually all cars sold in the United States since the early 1980s can run on gasoline containing as much as 10 percent ethanol. In addition, there are an estimated 5 million "flex-fuel" vehicles already on U.S. roads that can burn a mixture as high as 85 percent ethanol."

8 billion will be double what Brazil currently mandates.. And the US is currently using 3.5 billion gallons a year.

[ambush]

I think less than 0.0001% of the US population knows what Ethanol is.

Oh and your country hasn't signed Kyoto yet.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by ambush

I think less than 0.0001% of the US population knows what Ethanol is.

Do you think that because of your ignorance?

Originally Posted by ambush

Oh and your country hasn't signed Kyoto yet.

OMG!!! ARE YOU SURE?!?! /sarcasm]

Link.

At issue is the 1997 Kyoto accord, a treaty signed by the United States and 54 other nations.

It wasn't ratified by congress you ignorant Canadian! Don't you get tired of spouting ignorance?

[ambush]

oops, ratified.

but you get my point, they don't respect the Kyoto agreement... they didn't accept to implement it....

[Railroader]

No, I don't get your point.

Don't "accept to implement it"?!?! What does that mean?

[ambush]

Originally Posted by Railroader

No, I don't get your point.

Don't "accept to implement it"?!?! What does that mean?

Well... they do not currently respect the Kyoto agreement. Don't they. Gosh you are slow today... err...

[the_glassman]

It's a shame this country doesn't embrace diesel more. Besides being more efficient you can run it off of bio-diesel and without much work even waste oil. A diesel hybrid vehicle could easily get 75 miles per gallon or more.

[Randman]

I hope ethanol is better than is used to be. New Mexico has being using ethanol blends for some time. Heard bad things about it. My dad, who's a master mechanic, always used to avoid ethanol with a religious fervor.

[Mark Larr]

It takes HUGE amounts of crops to produce fuel.
You couldn't fuel the whole country on ethanol or biodiesel unless we cut off food shipments to other countries.........

[E's Lil Theorem]

Darn, this is a serious topic. When I read the thread title I thought I was going to see some Brazilian ladies oiling themselves and thus solving the "oil problems."

[olePigeon]

Uh oh, don't let Budster see this.

[nforcer]

Whatever we are doing it isn't working and we're failing hard.

[brapper]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Do you think that because of your ignorance?

OMG!!! ARE YOU SURE?!?! /sarcasm]

Link.
[/b]
It wasn't ratified by congress you ignorant Canadian! Don't you get tired of spouting ignorance?

Hey, the U.S. is coming around. No help from Bush tho.

link

[ReggieX]

Originally Posted by E's Lil Theorem

Darn, this is a serious topic. When I read the thread title I thought I was going to see some Brazilian ladies oiling themselves and thus solving the "oil problems."

The beaches would say different, plenty of oiling going on there.

[GSixZero]

Maybe it's because the oil and gas companies donate tens millions of dollars to both the democrats and the republicans every year.

[kikkoman]

It's great that GM is selling alternative fuel vehicles but that's one small part of the puzzle. If the government doesn't help build the infrastructure it will never reach widespread use.

[FulcrumPilot]

Political will is the most important, if you ask me, to create change on these matters. I say Aghnold for president!!

"The goal of the California Hydrogen Highway Network initiative is to support and catalyze a rapid transition to a clean, hydrogen transportation economy in California, thereby reducing our dependence on foreign oil, and protecting our citizens from health harms related to vehicle emissions. We have an opportunity to deal with these problems by investing in California's ability to innovate our way to a clean hydrogen future, thus bringing jobs, investment, and continued economic prosperity to California. We have an opportunity to prove to the world that a thriving environment and economy can co-exist." (Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger's California Hydrogen Highway Network Action Plan)

[MacNStein]

Originally Posted by ambush

I think less than 0.0001% of the US population knows what Ethanol is.

Oh and your country hasn't signed Kyoto yet.

Do you know what "getting a job" is? Or, better yet, what "getting your own apartment" is? Do those two things, and get back to us on what the average US citizen understands.


As for Kyoto, they can stick it.

[ambush]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Do you know what "getting a job" is? Or, better yet, what "getting your own apartment" is? Do those two things, and get back to us on what the average US citizen understands.


As for Kyoto, they can stick it.

Oh wait, I have a job.

Oh wait, I'm moving this summer.

Please stick to impersonal attacks, as you know nothing about me.

[MacNStein]

Originally Posted by ambush

Oh wait, I have a job.

Oh wait, I'm moving this summer.

Please stick to impersonal attacks, as you know nothing about me.

I know enough to realize what an elitist wanker you are. We all know you're some socialist "Euro-trash wannabe". The problem is, you don't even have enough life experience to understand your position (or anyone else's).

Oh, and having a part-time job, while trying to stir up "the Revolution", doesn't count.

[ambush]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

I know enough to realize what an elitist wanker you are. We all know you're some socialist "Euro-trash wannabe". The problem is, you don't even have enough life experience to understand your position (or anyone else's).

Oh, and having a part-time job, while trying to stir up "the Revolution", doesn't count.

Stop trying to derail this thread. Thanks.

And no, my job is not part time. And stop with the you're too young to have a valuable opinion rhetoric. It's getting old.

[MacNStein]

Originally Posted by ambush

Stop trying to derail this thread. Thanks.

And no, my job is not part time. And stop with the you're too young to have a valuable opinion rhetoric. It's getting old.

I'll stop that when you stop the attacks on people in the US. Ok, hotshot?

[von Wrangell]

Can't you three start your own forum to fight in?

[Cowwie]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Actually, they are following GM's lead in the United States of America. Hopefully everyone follows us.

Too bad GM's not going to be around much longer

Hydrogen has much more potential than alcohols for fuel in the long run.

[ambush]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

I'll stop that when you stop the attacks on people in the US. Ok, hotshot?

Ok, so like I said nobody knows what ethanol is in the US.

But it's the same thing in Canada and probably the rest of the world.

Jeez, I think you're becoming paranoid or something... take your meds now.

[Mark Larr]

Sorry ambush you are flat out wrong.

We have been using gasahol for 15 years now.

Ethanol is just not produced in large enough quantities for large scale consumption.

We would have to cut off all welfare food exports.

[MacNStein]

Originally Posted by ambush

Ok, so like I said nobody knows what ethanol is in the US.

But it's the same thing in Canada and probably the rest of the world.

So now he's throwing it in reverse and trying to do damage control. Funny stuff.

[el chupacabra]

Originally Posted by JoshuaZ

...... On a recent morning in Brazil's largest city, the clear liquid was selling for less than half the price of gasoline, ....

I haven't read the whole article yet but the last time I went to a south american country even gasoline was less than half the price of what it is in the states ($.60/gal).

The problem in the US seems to be more about strong demand for fuel due to americans owning more cars than most nations; large cars at that, and driving excessively. If OPEC were the ones to blame like the government wants us to believe then gas would be about the same price in every country.

Instead its internal companies like Exxon getting rich. The US government has done its best to suppress alternative fuels due to corporate lobbying. They pretend you're free to do what you want in this country (and you are 'technically') but if something were to take off like propane almost did, they quickly make laws making it asinine to even try a conversion (high usless fees etc.).

The other thing is Ethanol sucks compared to gas anyway.

[Mark Larr]

Our fuel has around 50% in taxes levied on it.

[el chupacabra]

I wonder how much of the rainforest is cut down each year as this sugar cane demand increases....my precious home.

[meelk]

meaningless. demand would far outstrip supply once oil starts its downward slide. make no mistake, the oil crash is most definitely coming.