[besson3c]

Sorry if the mods feel this is a better topic for the political section. Because this is more broad and philosophical than partisan, I thought it belonged here...

The accepted wisdom seems to be that jobs overseas = bad. I've heard this from both the right and the left.

Why is this?

In many circumstances, it provides opportunity in other countries, and a chance to make money that might not otherwise be possible. This might be a stretch, but wouldn't this premise appeal to the charitable/generous left?

Also, it allows businesses to operate cheaper, and is within the accepted boundaries of a free market/capitalism. Wouldn't this premise appeal to members of the right/Libetarians?

I'm not trying to make a generalization that *all* left or right should/are satisfied with jobs being moved overseas, I'm just wondering why we rarely seem to hear rebuttals in this vain?

At first, I used to think that moving jobs overseas gave greedy companies an opportunity to exploit cheap labor. Granted, I'm sure some of that goes on. On the other hand, these opportunities might be better than the opportunities these workers would have otherwise, right? These jobs are being filled despite the competition.

My attitudes towards jobs overseas are shifting. I used to believe that it was generally bad, but now I can also see it as a win-win situation. The potential hole in my argument is the idea that there is a shortage of jobs here in North America, and that we need these jobs. Do you believe that there is a shortage of jobs? I'm undecided. At what point does this shortage become a crisis of proportions that it doesn't make sense to lend a helping hand to foreign economies? Are we anywhere near this point?

Would anybody care to explain why the accepted wisdom seems to be to prevent jobs from moving overseas at all costs?

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by besson3c

The accepted wisdom seems to be that jobs overseas = bad. I've heard this from both the right and the left.

Why is this?

That is because jobs move where they are cheapest, and they are cheapest in countries that exploit the environment, exploit the people with long working hours, no or little health care, no pensions, child work, no or little work safety etc. pp. I know nobody who wants to compete under this conditions.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

That is because jobs move where they are cheapest, and they are cheapest in countries that exploit the environment, exploit the people with long working hours, no or little health care, no pensions, child work, no or little work safety etc. pp. I know nobody who wants to compete under this conditions.

Yeah, but aren't we looking at these jobs and judging them based on our own metrics? What about the perspectives of the people living in these countries? What are their alternatives?

Yes, it bothers me that North American companies can take advantage of the capitalist shortcoming of other countries, but what if these jobs really are great from the perspective of people living in these countries? This is where I'm conflicted.

[suvsr4terrorists]

Cool topic. I feel torn also. See, yes, it does exploit them from OUR perspective.... no healthcare, awful working conditions, etc etc etc. However, if you live in poverty, a big company setting up shop offering $5-10 a day could seem like a GODSEND.

From America's perspective.... I just don't know. I feel that blue collar jobs are needed here in the states so the high school football players can have jobs.... but ... I'm not sure they deserve everything the unions give them. I mean... okay, you sit and cut up a chicken all day. Does that really mean you deserve 40k a year with a great healthplan and retirement etc etc etc? We had this huge tyson chicken fiasco in WI a few years ago, where they lowered the pay from $15 an hour to around $11 an hour, or something like that. All the workers went on strike. Instead of changing their minds, Tyson just fired them and hired lots of people that were happy to work for $11 an hour.

I understand those people were accustomed to $15 an hour, but honestly... they cut up f*ckign chicken. It isn't exactly a skilled trade. On the same note, I think that most white collar employees are overpayed. $50-60 grand a year for doing jack ****? Uh..yeah. Go america.

I think the MAIN problem with employing people in America is healthcare. Healthcare costs are absolutely retarded, and it's easy to see why. If you have car insurance, it covers ACCIDENTs. In otherwords, when you screw up your car, they help fix it, and get your car running again. Car insurance does not cover tune ups, new tires, oil changes, car washes, or general maintenence. It ONLY covers severe problems. Health insurance, on the other hand, covers everything. That's totally insane. Because of this, nobody can really afford it out of pocket, everyone has to either rely on insurance, or just skip going to the doctor all together. The costs are just way too high. Why? Because nobody ever pays for it themselves! Think if we all had to start paying for doctor checkups entirely out of pocket. Wouldn't you shop around and find the best price? YEP. Captialism baby. But when insurance covers everything, you don't give a ****.

Here's another example: When I used to be a lab technician, we'd make a crown that we sold to the dentist for around $70-160. The dentist would turn around and charge YOUR insurance company about $500-700 for that EXACT SAME CROWN they just purchased for $120, PLUS the costs of actually installing it.

Something has to give.

[SVass]

It is not greedy "companies". It is greedy people-owners, executives, and consumers. "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo

[Doofy]

Bad, bad, bad.
It moves the money out of the economy. It used to be "you pay us, we pay them, they pay you". The third (and most important) part of this equation is lost. Not good at all.

[GSixZero]

Obviously this is not a black and white issue.

There's the humanistic side, where we see blue and low level white collar jobs moving overseas. We see families crying, boarded up towns and busted dreams. This is bad.

There's the economic side, where we lower costs helps the common good (i.e. whole world). The increase of supply of labor lowers its cost, and new industries can enter the market at a lower cost. This allows for cheaper innovation, and in turn, a better economy. Factory workers can impart their labors into areas that are more lucrative; not necessarily to them, but to shareholders, or owners. This is good.

[Y3a]

<< Yeah, but aren't we looking at these jobs and judging them based on our own metrics? What about the perspectives of the people living in these countries? What are their alternatives? >>

Mostly, it a problem of corrupt/inept politicians causing the stagnation in other countries. they only get the government they deserve.

We shouldn't do ANY BUSINESS with the Chinese who are using slave labor. We should have invested in Mexico so they would have jobs AND STAY HOME. We could put requirements on the workers (no drunks or potheads) and teach them to be sucessful.

Sending tech support to India is the WORST IDEA SO FAR! EVER!!! Why give a job that requires excellent communication skills to those who speak bad and have no patience? Hiring Latinos who speak poorly at fast food joints is why people are finding alternatives at lunchtime. Those who settle for poor service and crappy food are also to blame.

[GSixZero]

Originally Posted by Y3a

Why give a job that requires excellent communication skills to those who speak bad and have no patience?

BEST LINE EVER!

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Y3a

<< Yeah, but aren't we looking at these jobs and judging them based on our own metrics? What about the perspectives of the people living in these countries? What are their alternatives? >>

Mostly, it a problem of corrupt/inept politicians causing the stagnation in other countries. they only get the government they deserve.

We shouldn't do ANY BUSINESS with the Chinese who are using slave labor. We should have invested in Mexico so they would have jobs AND STAY HOME. We could put requirements on the workers (no drunks or potheads) and teach them to be sucessful.

Sending tech support to India is the WORST IDEA SO FAR! EVER!!! Why give a job that requires excellent communication skills to those who speak bad and have no patience? Hiring Latinos who speak poorly at fast food joints is why people are finding alternatives at lunchtime. Those who settle for poor service and crappy food are also to blame.

Your post fell apart at the generalization that all Indians speak poorly (speak bad.. heh.. ironic) and have no patience. English is taught within Indian schools starting at a young age. It is amazing that they can speak two languages, when many Americans struggle with one. Having no patience is just a gross generalization which you have not made the case for. It makes you sound stupid to throw something like this out there you can't even begin to substantiate outside of your limited personal experience.

Also, not all countries with stagnant economies have corrupt politicians.

Overall, your post sounds pretty hateful and xenophobic.

[suvsr4terrorists]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Your post fell apart at the generalization that all Indians speak poorly (speak bad.. heh.. ironic) and have no patience.

The ones I've dealt with for customer service were all speaking pretty poor english. Maybe your experiences are different.

English is taught within Indian schools starting at a young age. It is amazing that they can speak two languages, when many Americans struggle with one.

Well your post falls apart here. Are you implying that Indians are somehow more intelligent than Americans? Because it's quite obvious that american kids who start learning a foreign language at a young age also do very well.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by suvsr4terrorists

The ones I've dealt with for customer service were all speaking pretty poor english. Maybe your experiences are different.

Fair enough, I was obviously thrown by your statement. Here's what you wrote:

Sending tech support to India is the WORST IDEA SO FAR! EVER!!! Why give a job that requires excellent communication skills to those who speak bad and have no patience?

You can see how this can be read as Indians in general speaking poorly and having no patience, rather than Indians who work for Dell speaking poorly and having no patience. To that end, I'm not certain how being Indian is relevant here?

Well your post falls apart here. Are you implying that Indians are somehow more intelligent than Americans? Because it's quite obvious that american kids who start learning a foreign language at a young age also do very well.

I was just defending the Indians it seemed like you were dumping on.

If you are going to say something as provocative and delicate as what you said, why not take the time to write clearly? Would you speak like this in the company of an Indian in person?

[SVass]

Let me offer a defense (and more). Some schools in the US are atrocious, so these Americans can not communicate or operate machinery. Mathematics essentially is not taught in the US and most Americans think that arithmetic is all there is. Geometry is taught as problem solving instead of a way to document a thought process that leads to a proof. Some foreign workers have difficult to understand accents or follow idiotic scripts that do not address the real problem. (Talk to AOL Help in Bangalore and they will tell you how to fix your Macintosh by performing PC actions. My old insurance carrier help line in ?? had a hard time finding my type of policy and kept trying to talk about a more common one.) sam

[JHromadka]

Interesting that you bring this up, because this Thursday will be my last day at a company I've worked at for 8 years. I do server support for a large oil company, and it is outsourcing my job as well as thousands of US and UK computer jobs to India. Outsourcing is great... unless it's your job that's being outsourced.

At first they said it would be the same quality of support, now they call it "cost-advantaged." In the end, it's worse support for a lower cost. The US cannot sustain itself as a services and consumer-based economy when high-paying jobs leave.

I hear plenty of complaints about people not being able to understand the Indians. You can have complete command of the English language, but if your accent is thick, you won't be able to be understood, just as some Americans have trouble with certain regional British accents.

Yes, the standard-of-living is up in Bangalore. But what will be the long-term effects in the US?

[analogika]

That's capitalism for ya.

[suvsr4terrorists]

Originally Posted by besson3c

If you are going to say something as provocative and delicate as what you said, why not take the time to write clearly? Would you speak like this in the company of an Indian in person?

I'm not sure. Maybe if you took the time to realize I didn't write that comment, you'd be asking the poster of that comment, not me.

[xi_hyperon]

Good article here from Fortune magazine. It goes beyond the issue of outsourcing, and discusses how globalization in general could affect the long-term outlook for the U.S.

[Y3a]

<<our post fell apart at the generalization that all Indians speak poorly (speak bad.. heh.. ironic) and have no patience. English is taught within Indian schools starting at a young age. It is amazing that they can speak two languages, when many Americans struggle with one. Having no patience is just a gross generalization which you have not made the case for. It makes you sound stupid to throw something like this out there you can't even begin to substantiate outside of your limited personal experience.>>

as a computer consultant, I've placed many calls to "tech Support" (HP etc) and had the results I've explained. I guess I can't count personal experience huh?

"Speak Bad" was thrown in as a joke BTW. I used the phrase "speak poorly" in the next sentence as a tip off.

Whether Americans speak one language or many IS NOT THE POINT.
The quality of the exported service IS.

[outsourced]

The only knee-jerk reaction was the one I felt when my chair was pulled out from under me. Thanks to Microsoft, my job is now performed by someone else.

I now make less than half of my previous salary as a temp worker. Of course, I have no benefits.

Am I happy that someone in another country is doing my same job? Hell no.

It hurts when outsourcing affects YOU. It's all fine and dandy to think that our money is helping some other poor SOB, but now I'm the poor SOB.

So, Microsoft (and other corporations) and our glorious government can kiss my ass. I used to believe in libertarianism, free trade, open borders, etc.; but, outsourcing has changed my mind.

So, to anyone who praises the whole outsourcing concept, and who thinks that someone can benefit from MY lost job: KISS IT.

[outsourced]

But wait. There's more!

About the Indian reps.: I work in a call center and have to accept transferred calls from India reps. For the most part, they speak English quite well. However, if you try to say something to them that falls outside of their training, they become confused.

So, they can't really COMPREHEND the English, although they can perform scripted tasks well.

Oh, well. At least they can speak more than one language. Maybe I should learn Chinese.

[Doofy]

Guys, you know that there's more native English speakers in India than there is in England, right? Language isn't the problem - accents are.

[SVass]

Corporations do not love their employees. Executives love their perquisites. (I once heard a CEO tell a union that there wasn't enough money for a raise and then he requested and received a 20% raise.) Government leaders do not love their voters. Libertarians should understand. Why does your member of Congress never have to depend on Medicare? Study your family history! Why did your ancestors abandon one country and move to another?

Every so often, we humans kill the old "shortsighted" leaders and select new ones seemingly at random. Is there a better solution? sam

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Y3a

<<our post fell apart at the generalization that all Indians speak poorly (speak bad.. heh.. ironic) and have no patience. English is taught within Indian schools starting at a young age. It is amazing that they can speak two languages, when many Americans struggle with one. Having no patience is just a gross generalization which you have not made the case for. It makes you sound stupid to throw something like this out there you can't even begin to substantiate outside of your limited personal experience.>>

as a computer consultant, I've placed many calls to "tech Support" (HP etc) and had the results I've explained. I guess I can't count personal experience huh?

"Speak Bad" was thrown in as a joke BTW. I used the phrase "speak poorly" in the next sentence as a tip off.

Whether Americans speak one language or many IS NOT THE POINT.
The quality of the exported service IS.

It isn't fair to generalize based soley on your personal experience, but if you want to qualify your statement by limiting the population to Dell techs, or the Dell techs you've come into contact with, that would at least be a little easier to stomache.

[Hugi]

Whoa. For a moment there, before clicking the thread, I though Steve was moving to Europe.

[The Godfather]

I can't find the quote, but in one of his addresses to the Nation, Bush said that if you lost you job to outsourcing, you should go back to college and get a higher degree. While K-12 schools are bad here, there are programs, scholarships and loans to anyone who wants to get a higher education*.

[FONT=Arial Narrow]*must be a legal resident of the US. Money won't be enough to support wife and kids and/or your current spending habits. Void where prohibited[/FONT]

[JHromadka]

Originally Posted by The Godfather

I can't find the quote, but in one of his addresses to the Nation, Bush said that if you lost you job to outsourcing, you should go back to college and get a higher degree. While K-12 schools are bad here, there are programs, scholarships and loans to anyone who wants to get a higher education*.

I remember that quote. What a wonderful idea. Completely retool and relearn everything every few years. Do you want to go back to college when you are 40 or 50 years old? I sure don't. I'm retooling to get out of the IT industry. I'm not doing it again.

[el chupacabra]

Originally Posted by suvsr4terrorists

I feel that blue collar jobs are needed here in the states so the high school football players can have jobs.... but ... I'm not sure they deserve everything the unions give them.

Think if we all had to start paying for doctor checkups entirely out of pocket. Wouldn't you shop around and find the best price? YEP. Captialism baby.

Yes but there is another factor. We have shortage of doctors in the US. So shopping around wont work. Doctors are always overbooked. Doctors have lobbied congress to limit the number of people going to med school in order to keep a monopoly on their services. We have way more qualified people willing to get paid less, than we have schools. Then there's the malpractice lawsuites... When a doctor doesn something wrong, a patient tries to sue for millions more than whats needed ( 20 mil it wont bring someone back to life), but the doctor isn't punished, the bill gets put on his insurance which gets passed on to patients. So whenever someone sues a doctor, you guys with insurance are paying the bill..basically everything about the healthcare system in america is screwed up.

[IonCable]

We are to blame for outsourcing. Consumers demand the lowest possible price, the only way to get that is to outsource. A widget made in the US costs more than a Widget made in China. Because we want the lowest price we get the China widget. Same goes for many services, we want free tech support, ect. Well somehow it has to be paid for, the company isn't going to just pay it. After all the same consumers that want the lowest price and free tech suport, ALSO want that 401k they have to keep going up. Company stocks don't go up unless they have good earnings.

[The Godfather]

Originally Posted by IonCable

We are to blame for outsourcing. Consumers demand the lowest possible price, the only way to get that is to outsource. A widget made in the US costs more than a Widget made in China. Because we want the lowest price we get the China widget. Same goes for many services, we want free tech support, ect. Well somehow it has to be paid for, the company isn't going to just pay it. After all the same consumers that want the lowest price and free tech suport, ALSO want that 401k they have to keep going up. Company stocks don't go up unless they have good earnings.

You just described corporate competition with no rules, everything goes.

Republican America: by the people, for the corporations.

[suvsr4terrorists]

Originally Posted by The Godfather

You just described corporate competition with no rules, everything goes.

Republican America: by the people, for the corporations.

Yeah, because the democrats aren't controlled by corporations at all. In fact, NONE of them have any ties to major companies whatsoever. None at all.

[The Godfather]

Originally Posted by suvsr4terrorists

Yeah, because the democrats aren't controlled by corporations at all. In fact, NONE of them have any ties to major companies whatsoever. None at all.

Hey. I didn't say anything about the democrats. Yea, you are absolutely right.

[Randman]

I'm an American, but I went overseas for a job. Put a few "foreigners" out of work so I'm doing my part for many economies.

[Y3a]

<< yeah, because the democrats aren't controlled by corporations at all. In fact, NONE of them have any ties to major companies whatsoever. None at all. >>

LOL. The media and Hollywood, george Soros(sp?) etc. Heinz, Apple Computer too. The Democrats are controled by the loudest special interest groups.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by The Godfather

I can't find the quote, but in one of his addresses to the Nation, Bush said that if you lost you job to outsourcing, you should go back to college and get a higher degree. While K-12 schools are bad here, there are programs, scholarships and loans to anyone who wants to get a higher education*.

[FONT=Arial Narrow]*must be a legal resident of the US. Money won't be enough to support wife and kids and/or your current spending habits. Void where prohibited[/FONT]

Not to mention, Universities are a great way to help construction workers who have lost construction jobs to retrain themselves to go out and reclaim the construction jobs they have lost...

or something

BTW, this was during one of the televised Kerry/Bush debates.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Y3a

<< yeah, because the democrats aren't controlled by corporations at all. In fact, NONE of them have any ties to major companies whatsoever. None at all. >>

LOL. The media and Hollywood, george Soros(sp?) etc. Heinz, Apple Computer too. The Democrats are controled by the loudest special interest groups.

Yeah, Heinz and Apple are uber-powerful... they rule this country and dictate just about everything.

I'm also sick of hearing about this "liberal media" thing. The Republicans control an entire TV network, virtually control talk radio, and influence many conservative newspapers. This administration is also one of the most tight-lipped administrations ever, they've really made most of the media their bitch. The conservatives really hold the cards these days.

Liberal media?

[suvsr4terrorists]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I'm also sick of hearing about this "liberal media" thing.

http://www.mediatenor.com/

They used to have a website up for the kerry/bush coverage...and it was WAAAYYYYYYY in favor of Kerry.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I'm also sick of hearing about this "liberal media" thing. The Republicans control an entire TV network, virtually control talk radio, and influence many conservative newspapers. This administration is also one of the most tight-lipped administrations ever, they've really made most of the media their bitch. The conservatives really hold the cards these days.

Liberal media?

You obviously don't get it.

The difference is that the guys on talk radio are commentators, and they openly and proudly admit that they are conservative. The liberals in the mainstream media never identify themselves as liberal, instead trying to pass the facade to the public that they are objective and non-political. Big difference there.

Conservative hold the cards because they have the arguments on their side. They hold the cards because they actually propose solutions and try to reform that which is inefficient.

Liberals do not hold the cards because they propose no solutions. They refuse to put together programs and legislation that will help the nation. Instead, they spend their time running to TV cameras, bashing each and every Republican idea, action, and/or proposal. While the Republicans work their asses off trying to secure the nation, reform Social Security, reduce health care costs, promote democracy abroad, etc., the Dems spend all their energies trying to destroy Karl Rove and Tom Delay.

Can you tell me the Democratic strategy to win the war on terror? We've only been fighting it for 4 years now. Or how about Social Security: what's the Democrat's plan for this?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by spacefreak

You obviously don't get it.

The difference is that the guys on talk radio are commentators, and they openly and proudly admit that they are conservative. The liberals in the mainstream media never identify themselves as liberal, instead trying to pass the facade to the public that they are objective and non-political. Big difference there.

Conservative hold the cards because they have the arguments on their side. They hold the cards because they actually propose solutions and try to reform that which is inefficient.

Liberals do not hold the cards because they propose no solutions. They refuse to put together programs and legislation that will help the nation. Instead, they spend their time running to TV cameras, bashing each and every Republican idea, action, and/or proposal. While the Republicans work their asses off trying to secure the nation, reform Social Security, reduce health care costs, promote democracy abroad, etc., the Dems spend all their energies trying to destroy Karl Rove and Tom Delay.

Can you tell me the Democratic strategy to win the war on terror? We've only been fighting it for 4 years now. Or how about Social Security: what's the Democrat's plan for this?

If this thread gets moved to the political lounge (or whatever it is called), perhaps somebody else can do that.

I have no interest in going there. Based on your language I can tell that there is nothing in the world I could say that would get you to change your mind, and likewise I have already made up my mind.

I will say though that what really turns me off with the media are journalists who have discarded their responsibility of reporting in a way that isn't openly and blatantly partisan (like you say some conservative journalists have done). In doing so, they are simply repeating the party line, reading the talking points, and not being sincere and genuine in their reporting. Consequently, they are providing the politicians the opportunity to use them as puppets to promote their own agendas. Journalists that openly and proudly admit that they are conservatives or liberals are not journalists, but partisan hacks - this goes for the left and right. Not only is this my personal opinion, but this is the accepted standards of journalism ethics.

I agree that some journalists are disingenuous in making it seem that they are non-partisan when they really do have a consistent track record of bias. Perhaps there is no such thing as reporting with no bias whatsoever and not injecting some sort of personal narrative, but I'd take a journalist who at least will present both arguments as they are in a sincere way, rather than a journalist who just consistently feeds their conservative or liberal base with the same old party line.

These days, it takes a lot of work to penetrate past the standard party line and get to the facts. Most people just don't have the time and energy to take this on. What news networks like Fox do is put up a wall, making it even harder for average people to find out what is really going on. What is ironic is that many participants of this media machine will soapbox about how great democracy is. Some days I wonder if our democracy (namely the notion that the people should serve as a check and balance against our government) isn't being eroded.

If you want to turn this into a partisan thing, fine. Perhaps you can ascertain my political beliefs from my writing. However, I'm attempting to speak in very general terms here. My feelings about ethics in journalism would be the same if the left were in power and the same sort of thing was going on.

[analogika]

[DeathMan]

to attempt to re-rail this thread:

Losing a job is not the worst thing in the world that can happen to you. By now we should realize that we are in an unstable economic environment, and to be prepared if you lose a job. I was recently laid off. My job was not outsourced, though when the re-fill the position, it very well could be done through their romanian office. Outsourcing lowers costs, and frees up workers in the U.S. to focus on the things that the U.S. is good at (whatever that might be at the time, starting businesses is one of them). I've started a business (with another MacNN member actually) and we're (excruciatingly) slowly getting to where it will support us full time, and I continue to look for other work in the meantime.

Sending 1000 jobs to India could potentially create 1,100 jobs here because we can do "OUR" jobs better than we can do "THEIR" jobs. Seriously, if you're hacking implementation all day, with very little thought, just lots and lots of lines of code, you're already doing an Indian guy's job. Why? Because right now, the economics of India are better suited to do that type of work, while our economy is better suited to have you starting your own company, and hiring your own Indian coders. Ideally, India would make it out of that state eventually, and start shipping its jobs to somewhere else...(Philipines?). This has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with the current economic state of a region.

The 10 year-olds in the Philippines would rather work in a clothing factory than in their dad's rice field, and their parents are grateful for the extra money.

[DeathMan]

to attempt to re-rail this thread:

Losing a job is not the worst thing in the world that can happen to you. By now we should realize that we are in an unstable economic environment, and to be prepared if you lose a job. I was recently laid off. My job was not outsourced, though when the re-fill the position, it very well could be done through their romanian office. Outsourcing lowers costs, and frees up workers in the U.S. to focus on the things that the U.S. is good at (whatever that might be at the time, starting businesses is one of them). I've started a business (with another MacNN member actually) and we're (excruciatingly) slowly getting to where it will support us full time, and I continue to look for other work in the meantime.

Sending 1000 jobs to India could potentially create 1,100 jobs here because we can do "OUR" jobs better than we can do "THEIR" jobs. Seriously, if you're hacking implementation all day, with very little thought, just lots and lots of lines of code, you're already doing an Indian guy's job. Why? Because right now, the economics of India are better suited to do that type of work, while our economy is better suited to have you starting your own company, and hiring your own Indian coders. Ideally, India would make it out of that state eventually, and start shipping its jobs to somewhere else...(Philipines?). This has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with the current economic state of a region.

The 10 year-olds in the Philippines would rather work in a clothing factory than in their dad's rice field, and their parents are grateful for the extra money.

[torsoboy]

Originally Posted by DeathMan

... Sending 1000 jobs to India could potentially create 1,100 jobs here because we can do "OUR" jobs better than we can do "THEIR" jobs. Seriously, if you're hacking implementation all day, with very little thought, just lots and lots of lines of code, you're already doing an Indian guy's job. Why? Because right now, the economics of India are better suited to do that type of work, while our economy is better suited to have you starting your own company, and hiring your own Indian coders. Ideally, India would make it out of that state eventually, and start shipping its jobs to somewhere else...(Philipines?). This has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with the current economic state of a region.

The 10 year-olds in the Philippines would rather work in a clothing factory than in their dad's rice field, and their parents are grateful for the extra money.

Dang it, I'm doomed. I read tons of lines of code every day, and I am pretty sure someone in another country could probably do the same thing I am doing for a fraction of the price. But I agree that outsourcing is okay... if my job got outsourced I would find another one. There are tons and tons of jobs available for people to take. Some people think that they are too good to work at some places, and instead choose not to work at all, or to only work temp jobs a couple of times a month if there happens to be any that fit into their acceptable job criteria. Yeah, those ones mitch and boan all day long about how they have no money and there is no jobs.. blah blah blah.... i just have one thing to say to them: GET OFF YOUR HIGH-HORSE AND GET A JOB TO SUPPORT YOUR FAMILIES YOU LAZY B*ST*RDS!

anyway, back on topic... i believe that outsourcing is a good way to go if you can find qualified workers. i don't think that it should be done just because it is cheaper, but if it is cheaper and it is comparable quality, I am all for it.

[screamingFit]

Originally Posted by suvsr4terrorists

[snip]you sit and cut up a chicken all day. Does that really mean you deserve 40k a year with a great healthplan and retirement etc etc etc?

By performing one of the most dangerous jobs a person can do, yes.

In regards to outsourcing, I think it's too soon to see what the net effect is. Short term, the US population is becoming disinfranchised with their country and it's politics and the feeling that they're more and more expendable in the US workplace. My personal feeling on the longterm effect is that China will overtake the US as the number one world power and in a fit of hurt feelings and jealousy, the US military will be called in to blow them off the map.

NAFTA and the proposed CAFTA plans only do one thing. Make the fat and greedy .05% of the US population that much richer while the US middle-class will fall deeper into poverty.

[suvsr4terrorists]

Originally Posted by screamingFit

By performing one of the most dangerous jobs a person can do, yes.

Last time I checked, Alaskan Fisherman and power line workers had the most dangerous jobs, with no mention of chicken factories.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Guys, you know that there's more native English speakers in India than there is in England, right? Language isn't the problem - accents are.

Doesn't make a difference to me if I don't understand what they are talking about...

-t

[outsourced]

[QUOTE=torsoboy]... There are tons and tons of jobs available for people to take. Some people think that they are too good to work at some places, and instead choose not to work at all, or to only work temp jobs a couple of times a month if there happens to be any that fit into their acceptable job criteria. ... YOU LAZY B*ST*RDS!
QUOTE]

Think you could find a job doing what you're currently doing? Maybe, maybe not. The tons of jobs you refer to are mostly service jobs.

And, if I were to take your post personally, I did try to find a job outside of my knowledge base. Matter of fact, instead of fixing Microsoft's software issues, I'm working on dental claims. Do I enjoy it -- FSCK no. Did I choose it so I could pay my bills -- Why yes I did.

The other jobs that I was refused: dishwasher, farm hand, fast food service, retail clerk, lawn maintainer, and a few more. So don't go generalizing about people being "too good to work at some places." The out of state employers didn't want to hire me even though I stated that I'd pay my own moving expenses! A$$holes.

Anyway, this is an excellent topic. And there are several good posts here: Especially about being re-educated. Right. Like that works.

[JHromadka]

Originally Posted by DeathMan

Losing a job is not the worst thing in the world that can happen to you. By now we should realize that we are in an unstable economic environment, and to be prepared if you lose a job. I was recently laid off. My job was not outsourced, though when the re-fill the position, it very well could be done through their romanian office. Outsourcing lowers costs, and frees up workers in the U.S. to focus on the things that the U.S. is good at (whatever that might be at the time, starting businesses is one of them). I've started a business (with another MacNN member actually) and we're (excruciatingly) slowly getting to where it will support us full time, and I continue to look for other work in the meantime.

Sending 1000 jobs to India could potentially create 1,100 jobs here because we can do "OUR" jobs better than we can do "THEIR" jobs. Seriously, if you're hacking implementation all day, with very little thought, just lots and lots of lines of code, you're already doing an Indian guy's job. Why? Because right now, the economics of India are better suited to do that type of work, while our economy is better suited to have you starting your own company, and hiring your own Indian coders. Ideally, India would make it out of that state eventually, and start shipping its jobs to somewhere else...(Philipines?). This has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with the current economic state of a region.

And what is the US "good at?" We're a services country now, and any service can be outsourced. What happens to those people until they retool and find new work? Who is going to pay their mortgage, credit card bills, etc? It's all well-and-good to tell someone to find a new job, but sometimes it takes a long time to find a job. One of my friends is in her 40s and was laid off over a year ago. She still hasn't found work. Another friend of mine had to move his entire family to a small town because that was the only place he could find work.

I'm doing something similar to you and starting a company of my own, but you can't have all intro programming jobs outsourced. What is someone to do when they get out of college? Why bother learning programming when you can't compete with India? Do you expect everyone exiting college to be entrepreneurs?

These short-term profits for corporations are destroying America's future job market.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by besson3c

... What news networks like Fox do is put up a wall, making it even harder for average people to find out what is really going on.

Fox regularly has both liberals and conservatives on their shows when discussing (political) issues. It's some of the other networks that do not represent both sides of the aisle. They show both sides more than any other news organization. I'd hardly call that a wall.

[DeathMan]

Originally Posted by JHromadka

And what is the US "good at?"

You answered your own question. Starting businesses is the thing America is good at right now. There are a few other things like high end, person to person service, but to make much money there, you probably will need to own the business. Sales is another choice. Its hard to outsource sales to India because of the communication barriers.

We have the right economic and political climate to make it work. I didn't say it was easy to learn new skills and/or start a new business. One main barrier is letting ourselves get so overun by debt that if we do lose our job we become totally immobilized. This is so common, and it makes me nervous. We don't have the luxuries of Job security that our parents had (Unless you can get into a state or municipal job -- or union I guess.)

[DeathMan]

Originally Posted by spacefreak

Fox regularly has both liberals and conservatives on their shows when discussing (political) issues. It's some of the other networks that do not represent both sides of the aisle. They show both sides more than any other news organization. I'd hardly call that a wall.

Please stop.