[Big Mac]

Take a look at the very interesting Slashdot coverage of the newly formed Unified EFI Forum. The constituents of this forum include Intel, AMD, Microsoft, IBM, Dell and HP, but notably absent from the list is Apple. This is a paid "forum," with an entry fee of $2,500; which precludes much of the open source community. Anyway, I'll give everyone a synopsis of the discourse:

*Open Firmware provides most, if not all, of the benefits of EFI, yet the former is a much more open, older and far more mature platform.

*Many of the Slashdot commentators believe(d) Apple would continue to use Open Firmware, even though Apple has stated its PCs will not be running it.

*EFI appears to be an integral component of Trusted Computing (DRM), while BIOS, due to its archaic and limited nature, prevents the adoption of systemic DRM.

*If one buys into the notion that the adoption of EFI will be driven by Trusted Computing initiatives, the implications the pairing could hold for the future of computing are disturbing (ubiquitous, uncrackable DRM). (I'm not saying I'm swallowing all of the FUD spread on the topic, but these scenarios are plausible.)

*After looking at the potential ramifications, the cursed, backward BIOS may well be a picnic in comparison to EFI.

*Open Firmware sounds like a panacea after reviewing these comments. And Open Firmware is, ironically, what Apple is running away from. Paging Eug Wanker. . .

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Take a look at the [url=http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/07/26/1226233&tid=137]*Many of the Slashdot commentators believe(d) Apple would continue to use Open Firmware, even though Apple has stated its Intel-based Macs will not be running it.

FIXED!!!

[Eug Wanker]

Paging Eug Wanker. . .

I'm no engineer, but... Yep, sounds like FUD to me.

Anyways, it's irrelevant for Apple, since they've already said OpenFirmware is dead. And BIOS? Not a chance.

I will also point out this quote again from an Apple employee:

We realize there are lots of folks that need to know what is going to be in the ROMs on these new machines, and what partition scheme will be used. Unfortunately, we are not yet in a position to make that information available, but we will communicate it as soon as we reasonably can. Don't assume that what you see in the transition boxes represents what will be present in the final product.

The general consensus I've heard from other developers is:
1) They don't want us to use BIOS
2) If they haven't heard of EFI, they want us to use OF
3) If they have heard of EFI, they want us to use EFI

This is not a statement about what Apple will use, just what I've heard from developers that have an opinion on the subject.

[Millennium]

EFI is cheap-over-good, that's all it is, both in the sense of implementation and in the fact that the media companies want it for their DRM. What gets me are the people who actually think Apple is going to pass these savings on to their own customers.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Millennium

What gets me are the people who actually think Apple is going to pass these savings on to their own customers.

With Intel processors Macs are more directly comparable to other PCs. They will have to pass some of the savings on to the customer or they will lose sales.

I don't get why you think Open Firmware is more expensive than EFI though. It's just software and not really that much to have any significant impact on price.

[Eug Wanker]

All I can say is that I'm happy that /. propellerheads don't run Apple.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

All I can say is that I'm happy that /. propellerheads don't run Apple.

I agree... Apple would have been dead long ago. Regarding OF vs. EFI, I've heard good things about EFI.

[milhous]

haven't read slashdot in about 2 years as i just can't stand the people in there. they're the types of people that refuse to pay $200 for a tivo and instead seek advice on building a homebrew linux-based PVR for personal glory and bragging rights that in the end is most likely not as good of an experience and ultimately costs more to build. yeah it's a generalization, but that's how i see it.

but yeah, i don't see apple having much choice than to adopt EFI. no way over jobs dead body that we'll have a BIOS-based Mac for commercial production. maybe apple's abandoning OF due to potential licensing issues?

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

With Intel processors Macs are more directly comparable to other PCs. They will have to pass some of the savings on to the customer or they will lose sales.

You know that, and I know that, but Apple will try and get away with it anyway.

I don't get why you think Open Firmware is more expensive than EFI though. It's just software and not really that much to have any significant impact on price.

By itself, it isn't. But the media companies will be insisting on DRM-crippled hardware in the future, and that is the only thing EFI can do which OF can't. The licenses from the media companies will be much more expensive (assuming they're even attainable) if Apple sticks with OF, thus the cheap-over-good.

[[APi]TheMan]

Originally posted by Millennium:
By itself, it isn't. But the media companies will be insisting on DRM-crippled hardware in the future, and that is the only thing EFI can do which OF can't. The licenses from the media companies will be much more expensive (assuming they're even attainable) if Apple sticks with OF, thus the cheap-over-good.

Damn, won't it be embarassing when 'they' break that hardware-based DRM? Kinda like DVD Jon breaking the iTunes music store over and over again every day after Apple released an update. And kinda like Microsoft's Genuine Advantage, which was broken less than 24 hours after it was released. If hardware devs are requesting EFI, then Apple should use EFI.

DRM will always be broken.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by [APi]TheMan

Damn, won't it be embarassing when 'they' break that hardware-based DRM? Kinda like DVD Jon breaking the iTunes music store over and over again every day after Apple released an update. And kinda like Microsoft's Genuine Advantage, which was broken less than 24 hours after it was released. If hardware devs are requesting EFI, then Apple should use EFI.

DRM will always be broken.

I'm not familiar with the referenced M$ DRM, but with iTunes Apple allows those decryption techniques to exist because the FairPlay encoding is going on on the client side. If the iTMS downloads were encrypted prior to download, the system would not be "cracked." And if you look at what the geeks are saying about hardware based DRM, it can easily be made to be very difficult to circumvent.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

I'm not familiar with the referenced M$ DRM, but with iTunes Apple allows those decryption techniques to exist because the FairPlay encoding is going on on the client side. If the iTMS downloads were encrypted prior to download, the system would not be "cracked." And if you look at what the geeks are saying about hardware based DRM, it can easily be made to be very difficult to circumvent.

One thing people are overlooking. Apple is not part of the consortium that has proposed Palladium. Yes, I know Intel is, but they aren't building DRM into their chips. They are building in SUPPORT for it. Which means that other companies can choose to use it or not. My guess is that Apple Macintoshes with Intel Processors will not use Palladium in any way.

[[APi]TheMan]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

I'm not familiar with the referenced M$ DRM...

I was referring to Windows Genuine Advantage [microsoft.com] which was recently cracked [theregister.co.uk].

There will be methods to bypass DRM. Besides, why the hell would I wanna watch a movie or listen to a tune that was controlled via DRM? I'll rip my own CDs and DVDs, thank you very much. Screw the RIAA, MPAA, ClearChannel, Microsoft, etc.

Originally Posted by Big Mac

....And if you look at what the geeks are saying about hardware based DRM, it can easily be made to be very difficult to circumvent.

Hardware shmardware.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by [APi]TheMan

Besides, why the hell would I wanna watch a movie or listen to a tune that was controlled via DRM?

I find it interesting that people are OK spending $9 to go to a movie theater (where you basically have no control over the movie), yet complain about DRM.

The future is going to be very confusing...

[[APi]TheMan]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

I find it interesting that people are OK spending $9 to go to a movie theater (where you basically have no control over the movie), yet complain about DRM.

The future is going to be very confusing...

Damn, it's up to $10 some places here in the Bay Area. Besides, cute girls wanna go to the movies on a Friday night, that's fine with me.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

I find it interesting that people are OK spending $9 to go to a movie theater (where you basically have no control over the movie), yet complain about DRM.

The future is going to be very confusing...

I find it interesting that people are OK spending €30 to go to a concert (where you basically have no control over the songs), yet complain about DRM.

Yeah. Blows my mind too

cheers

W-Y

[[APi]TheMan]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

I find it interesting that people are OK spending €30 to go to a concert (where you basically have no control over the songs), yet complain about DRM.

Yeah. Blows my mind too

cheers

W-Y

The bafoons that go to those concerts are the same idiots that have no clue about the impacts and implications of DRM. There's a reason I don't support mainstream trash: the music all sounds the same, the concerts cost too much, and it supports oppression of artists and gives most of the money to the fat cats at the record label.

I support artists in the underground scene by spreading the word, buying shirts, buying CDs, and going to concerts. These concerts cost $10 or $15 max.

Having said that, I'm not worried about DRM.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Nah I'm not worried about DRM either.. but I am irritated by it. For instance it is hard enough to remove the protection of the iTMS m4p files already and there is no hardware protection!

In my country removing the protection and using the resulting m4a file in any or all of my private personal media players is 100% ok and legal. It is still a bother to find the programs that do this. Some are very dodgy and ill-supported.

I pay €8 for a movie and €30 for a concert because it is a completely different experience from a DVD and a CD respectively. Simple as that.

cheers

W-Y

[Mithras]

Originally Posted by [APi]TheMan

The bafoons that go to those concerts are the same idiots that have no clue about the impacts and implications of DRM. There's a reason I don't support mainstream trash: the music all sounds the same, the concerts cost too much, and it supports oppression of artists and gives most of the money to the fat cats at the record label.

I support artists in the underground scene by spreading the word, buying shirts, buying CDs, and going to concerts. These concerts cost $10 or $15 max.

well, only because those bands aren't very popular. they'd be happy to charge more if they could.

[[APi]TheMan]

Originally Posted by Mithras

well, only because those bands aren't very popular. they'd be happy to charge more if they could.

Well that's called "selling out"... You don't have to be Metallica to have a religious-like following and sell out venues.

[Don Pickett]

Slashdot. The same board which predicted the iPod would fail because it had no wireless and no ogg support. . .

[Link]

As ridiculous as this may sound, there are many "real geeks" that would prefer to use OpenFirmware -- no not people who go and yank out their Arstechnica babble every time they get the chance and then some -- no I don't need to say who that is -- they already know and are preparing a 3 page rebuttal about how EFI truly is liked by "the people that matter" and blah blah blah whatever.

OpenFirmware is Open. HELLO, does anyone NOT read that?

Gwarsh, so is EFI -- which is actually a standard, not a type of firmware.. wow, learn something new everyday.

http://arstechnica.com/news/posts/1086136343.html

(ooh I pressed the ars technica link on you!)

http://www.kernelthread.com/publications/firmware/

I honestly can't be too sure what to say of EFI yet, being perfectly honest I don't like it because well -- intel is backing it, and it was made with Microsoft's best interests in mind.

[Salty]

OK... now that we're done opposing DRM just because...

What content would Apple actually lock down with this assuming they decided to be complete jerks.

Is this going to prevent Handbrake from working? How bout iTunes from ripping a CD? Will it take my iTunes music store music and make it impossible for me to remove the DRM from?
What actual problems is this going to cause?

My guess... any use of DRM will be limited to watching movies which I don't care about. Music which the only thing I find frustrating about is the fact that I couldn't import into Final Cut Express a bit ago, so I'll have to burn a CD worst case senario. And the OS which I buy anyway. And software, also which I buy.

Unless you're a massive pirate then I don't see exactly how this is going to be a problem.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

Slashdot. The same board which predicted the iPod would fail because it had no wireless and no ogg support. . .

MacNN. The same board that predicted the iPod would fail because it was too expensive and was just 5 GBs...

cheers

W-Y

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Salty

OK... now that we're done opposing DRM just because...

Yes Salty. We hate DRM. That's why we hate the iTMS.. oh wait WE DON'T HATE THE ITMS!!

DRM is not Palladium pal. You'd do well to pay attention to the discussion. If your question above was changed to reflect what this thread is about the answer would be: read other people's reply before posting trite like that. We have covered very well why Palladium is not desirable.

The rest of your post was just an extension of your "misunderstanding" in the beginning.

cheers

W-Y