[driven]

I heard about this on the news tonight:
http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/met.../08laptop.html

I hated this guy (Roy Barnes) as Governor. I thought he made horrible decisions. Apparently he still does.

[wdlove]

I hope that it will come to a successful end. It probably would be better if the students purchased the laptop themselves, would bring greater responsibility.

[moonmonkey]

Originally Posted by wdlove

I hope that it will come to a successful end. It probably would be better if the students purchased the laptop themselves, would bring greater responsibility.

In an ideal world this would be great, but in the real world the kids would spend the money on crack and silly putty.

[Ghoser777]

Dammit, when I was in school I didn't get crack or laptops.

[d4nth3m4n]

will there be warning stickers on the comps about the darwin kernel?

/recycled humor that doesn't really quit.

[Link]

From reading the article, it seems like they were supposed to replace the lab computers with new ones, but instead are buying all new computers.... for the teachers only.

FWIW that sounds pretty lame. They did something like that here too but had to turn around and set up several labs for the students in the end, thank goodness

[driven]

Originally Posted by Link

From reading the article, it seems like they were supposed to replace the lab computers with new ones, but instead are buying all new computers.... for the teachers only.

FWIW that sounds pretty lame. They did something like that here too but had to turn around and set up several labs for the students in the end, thank goodness

No ... they are buying computers for every student in Cobb County. They are phasing it in by school or grade or some such thing like that. It's one of Apple's biggest deals.

(Assuming that the anti-apple parents don't get this squashed with the help of our recently ousted governor)

[goMac]

Originally Posted by wdlove

I hope that it will come to a successful end. It probably would be better if the students purchased the laptop themselves, would bring greater responsibility.

If parents could afford and justify purchases of laptops, they probably would have already bought them. Not to mention, you have to make sure the students all are running the same software setup. Plus the district has to support the laptop, not the student.

I currently am working with a school district on a one to one laptop deployment beginning in some grades. The students are required to sign a contract, and make a deposit. The student's parents are fully aware of this and must check out the laptop with the student. Not only that, but all laptops have insurance on them to cover accidental damage. A 6th grader wont feel any more responsibility for buying the laptop on their own. You just have to accept things are going to happen.

[budster101]

You can insure all students have the same setup by a disk image.... You can't do that in Windows.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by budster101

You can insure all students have the same setup by a disk image.... You can't do that in Windows.

You can actually. My other job at University of Portland uses a tool called Norton Ghost which can image Windows machines over a network.

[strictlyplaid]

Originally Posted by driven

(Assuming that the anti-apple parents don't get this squashed with the help of our recently ousted governor)

I don't think they're anti-Apple, are they? They'd probably react the same way to a Dell-related plan of equal expense.

Originally Posted by budster101

You can insure all students have the same setup by a disk image.... You can't do that in Windows.

If I take your meaning correctly -- that you can make sure every student starts out with exactly the same setup -- you can, using a program like Norton Ghost: http://www.symantec.com/sabu/ghost/ghost_personal/

If what you mean is that the computer's setup should remain the same no matter what the student does to the system, programs like DeepFreeze would do that. http://www.faronics.com/html/deepfreeze.asp

Almost anything you can do on Macs, you can do on Windows... and vice versa.

[budster101]

This is built into Macs....

I just worked on a DELL today, and I almost vomited... the guy was taking a ribbing from me big time...
I think he's going to go and buy a Powerbook soon.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by budster101

This is built into Macs....

I just worked on a DELL today, and I almost vomited... the guy was taking a ribbing from me big time...
I think he's going to go and buy a Powerbook soon.

Well... kinda. To effectively image Macintoshes you really need a way to network image. Imagine trying to image hundreds of computers by hand. To do this, you need a Mac OS X Server machine. Making hard drive images by hand and then going to every machine, plugging in a hard drive with the image, and using Disk Utility to restore it is next to useless for most mid-size group system admins. In Windows, you could just do a block copy in this scenario anyway, which doesn't cost you a thing.

As a side note, most companies, Apple or otherwise, will handle imaging for you at the factory. It's usually an extra $20 a machine. In our case though, it was much cheaper just to set up a few XServes and do it ourselves.

[strictlyplaid]

Originally Posted by goMac

Well... kinda. To effectively image Macintoshes you really need a way to network image. Imagine trying to image hundreds of computers by hand.

I manage 8 (Windows) machines in a small computer lab, and therefore I do that stuff by hand. It's a royal pain, even with just 8 machines!

[driven]

Originally Posted by strictlyplaid

I don't think they're anti-Apple, are they? They'd probably react the same way to a Dell-related plan of equal expense.

If I take your meaning correctly -- that you can make sure every student starts out with exactly the same setup -- you can, using a program like Norton Ghost: http://www.symantec.com/sabu/ghost/ghost_personal/

If what you mean is that the computer's setup should remain the same no matter what the student does to the system, programs like DeepFreeze would do that. http://www.faronics.com/html/deepfreeze.asp

Almost anything you can do on Macs, you can do on Windows... and vice versa.

I remember from the comittee meetings a few parents arguing VERY forcefully for a Dell solution. (Go figure)

[ManOfSteal]

Hopefully the school board will appeal the ruling on Monday.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by driven

I remember from the comittee meetings a few parents arguing VERY forcefully for a Dell solution. (Go figure)

It's absurd to even argue what kind of laptop they should get. The students can't even change the configuration on them. In our deployment, the students do not have an admin account on their own laptop. They can't install anything. So it's not like it really matters what kind of laptop they get for compatibility. So personal interests don't matter. You can't do anything yourself with the laptop.

Actually, trying to get into the administrator's account is even against the rules of the contract they sign.

[ManOfSteal]

Originally Posted by goMac

It's absurd to even argue what kind of laptop they should get.

Amen. I remember when the parents and community wanted a Windows PC solution in the district I worked for and their 1-to-1 deployment. Apple won thank goodness.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by ManOfSteal

Amen. I remember when the parents and community wanted a Windows PC solution in the district I worked for and their 1-to-1 deployment. Apple won thank goodness.

In the mid nineties, the district I am working with right now thought they would start the switch to Windows (you have to remember, this was pre-iMac, and Apple was looking pretty bad). After about the first 30 Compaqs in went so badly the whole program was halted. The thing's were pains to support and students had already messed them up. By that time, Apple had already told us something big was coming down the pipe, and asking us for education suggestions on "their next big thing".

[ManOfSteal]

Originally Posted by goMac

In the mid nineties, the district I am working with right now thought they would start the switch to Windows (you have to remember, this was pre-iMac, and Apple was looking pretty bad). After about the first 30 Compaqs in went so badly the whole program was halted. The thing's were pains to support and students had already messed them up. By that time, Apple had already told us something big was coming down the pipe, and asking us for education suggestions on "their next big thing".

Yeah, the district I was involved with was strictly Apple up until 1996. Then the Superintendent decided to go 100% Windows. They hired all certified-Windows technical support, spent all this money on training them left and right and everything. That lasted until 2003, when the whole 1-to-1 initiative came on board and same Superintendent who switched everything initially, was won over by Apple and went back to them. Ironically, this very same Superintendent, left the school district (retired after 23+ years) and is now working in the Education sector of Apple directly! Go figure.

[strictlyplaid]

Originally Posted by goMac

It's absurd to even argue what kind of laptop they should get. The students can't even change the configuration on them.

Sure, but the issue in this story seems to be the price of the program, which is apparently at the root of the opposition (although the legal argument they're using revolves around whether the school district is using its tax funding for the purpose to which it was allotted.) If Dells can be had for $200 a unit and Macs can be had for $600 a unit (with education/volume discounts), that's a 300% reduction in cost for using Dell.

Yes, I'm aware of differences in TCO and support costs, etc., but I'm sure the parents aren't.... and with a program (like DeepFreeze) that refreshed students' hard drives after every reboot, maintenance costs *could* be just as low for PCs as for Macs (though students would have to save all their files to removable media.)

[goMac]

Originally Posted by strictlyplaid

Sure, but the issue in this story seems to be the price of the program, which is apparently at the root of the opposition (although the legal argument they're using revolves around whether the school district is using its tax funding for the purpose to which it was allotted.) If Dells can be had for $200 a unit and Macs can be had for $600 a unit (with education/volume discounts), that's a 300% reduction in cost for using Dell.

Yes, I'm aware of differences in TCO and support costs, etc., but I'm sure the parents aren't.... and with a program (like DeepFreeze) that refreshed students' hard drives after every reboot, maintenance costs *could* be just as low for PCs as for Macs (though students would have to save all their files to removable media.)

In the end, Dell's really aren't cheaper though. Not unless you buy their Celery Powered Craptops.

[ManOfSteal]

Originally Posted by goMac

In the end, Dell's really aren't cheaper though. Not unless you buy their Celery Powered Craptops.

Dell hardware is cheaper; however, it's the extra software that needs to be purchased where you get killed on. One of the many reasons the district I worked for went with Apple is because of the iApps, that is, the instructionally based software that comes standard within OS X. You have to pay extra to get "good" digital hub software on the PC, let alone software that could be instructionally taught to 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th graders.

[budster101]

They stopped the sale!.... Stupid morons.

Read the front page of MacNN: Wait, Here you go.

Cobb County Schools were dealt a major setback last Friday when a judge put the massive 63,000 iBook program on hold. The Cobb Superior Court judge ruled that the $100.8 million laptop program "greatly differs from technology plans voters were promised in the 2003 Special Purpose Local Option Sales Tax referendum, [SPLOST II] " according to the Marietta Daily Journal. Announced in early May as the largest ever one-to-one computer learning initiative, the program, the district's "Power To Learn" program calls for Apple to provide iBook G4s to every student and teacher in the district, starting with deployment this fall of more than 17,000 iBooks for teachers district-wide and students at four high schools designated as demonstration sites and could extend all Cobb County high school and middle school students in 2006.

The judge's ruling follows a July 8 hearing on a lawsuit brought by former Cobb Commissioner Butch Thompson against Redden and five of the seven school board members who voted for the laptop program. The lawsuit claimed the program never specified funds to provide laptops to all middle and high school students, but did not contest the issuance of laptops to teachers.

In April, the board voted 5-2 on April 28 to start the $25 million Phase I of Redden's program this year, which would give laptops to all 7,100 teachers and 8,500 laptops to students at four pilot high schools. About 550 teachers already have received their laptops, but plans for the other 6,550 teachers and the 8,500 students are uncertain, according to the report.

Idiots....

[besson3c]

I know this isn't a popular opinion shared here, based on a much earlier thread about this, but...

I still think that most high schools/middle schools aren't prepared to be teaching computers in any sort of meaningful way, enough for me to advocate buying *any* laptops.

I also can't fathom a school district where the consensus is that there isn't something more worthwhile to spend the money on (e.g. improving other facilities, educational field trips, whatever).

I've been educated in here that often this money comes from grants, and that the decisions aren't made by those at the bottom of the food chain (i.e. teachers, students, parents). If that is the case, I've never understood these parental lobbies pushing for Dell over Macintosh, or vice versa.

I've been convinced that it is possible to do *some* meaningful stuff with computers, but I'm still not convinced that the majority if teachers are prepared to utilize this technology in a meaningful way.

I also don't think that flashy Powerpoint slides enhance learning in and of themselves (we've had this conversation before too).

[budster101]

e-learning is the future of education, or at least it is going to be the greatest compliment to traditional learning. Anyone who poo-poos this has no idea what they are talking about or are also just too lazy to implement what is best for the education system.

It's about learning and making a positive and powerful impact on young minds. Traditional only learning only benefits the upper percentage of learners who can do so this way. The rest are falling through the cracks in the system and being either pushed OUT or are getting an inferior education through to a minor fault in how and when they learn best.

[besson3c]

Also: are you guys upset just because your "guy" (Apple) didn't "win", the possibility that the board might go with Dell instead, or because you really feel that as many districts as possible should have laptop deals that you help pay for?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by budster101

e-learning is the future of education, or at least it is going to be the greatest compliment to traditional learning. Anyone who poo-poos this has no idea what they are talking about or are also just too lazy to implement what is best for the education system.

If you are talking about e-learning as in learning environments for distance learning, all of the current distance learning environments (e.g. NetG) are absolute CRAP. Flash-card style learning is not a way of understanding things, but memorizing certain things.

I also resent being told that I have no idea what I'm talking about, when you haven't even heard my arguments. Utilizing computers might be the future of education, it might not, but who is to say that it is a viable solution right now?

It's about learning and making a positive and powerful impact on young minds. Traditional only learning only benefits the upper percentage of learners who can do so this way. The rest are falling through the cracks in the system and being either pushed OUT or are getting an inferior education through to a minor fault in how and when they learn best.

The problem is, students expect to be entertained. There is so much media which leverages this trend, but many do not believe that this is a good thing.

I'm for immersive learning environments (see my Hillary Clinton/Grand Theft Auto thread), but flashy Powerpoint, and other passive teaching/learning is not immersive. Unfortunately, most students that I've come into contact with even at the College/University level have passive minds. We should not blindly advocate technology, when the possibility exists that there is a correlation between the way technology is utilized and passive learning.

I also believe that most teachers aren't even prepared to grasp these issues, know what New Media is, understand enough about the technology they are teaching to teach it as a meaningful tool.

[budster101]

I know for a fact that they will have nothing but problems if they go anywhere but with Mac. Dell will suck them dry for SUPPORT issues and extra software and then you will have the idiotic faculty who have no idea of how to work with these "WINDOWS" machines as they will be buggy and crash so often, they'll be calling support every other week...

This is not to even delve lightly into the impact on the students when 10 of 20 machines are constantly DOWN for support.

Apples are better for schools and that is a fact I can base on my own experiences.

I want Apple to win, but I want the School System to WIN more, so if I had the slightest notion that a DELL with Windows would be better for the Schools, I would chime in as such. It's going to be a major Quagmire...

More is not better. More that WORK are.
If they go DELL, in the first week, nay DAY they are hooked up to the net, there will be viruses all around and adware, spyware, malware, and junk files filling up the hard drives abound.

Gasp.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by budster101

I know for a fact that they will have nothing but problems if they go anywhere but with Mac. Dell will suck them dry for SUPPORT issues and extra software and then you will have the idiotic faculty who have no idea of how to work with these "WINDOWS" machines as they will be buggy and crash so often, they'll be calling support every other week...

This is not to even delve lightly into the impact on the students when 10 of 20 machines are constantly DOWN for support.

Apples are better for schools and that is a fact I can base on my own experiences.

I want Apple to win, but I want the School System to WIN more, so if I had the slightest notion that a DELL with Windows would be better for the Schools, I would chime in as such. It's going to be a major Quagmire...

More is not better. More that WORK are.
If they go DELL, in the first week, nay DAY they are hooked up to the net, there will be viruses all around and adware, spyware, malware, and junk files filling up the hard drives abound.

Gasp.

I agree that an Apple solution would be better than a Dell solution. Does this even need to be discussed? We all believe this.

The fact that there is potential for some computers to be down for support (Dell or Apple) is another argument which I could make in favor of smarter technological spending, as opposed to blindly getting technology in the door. How many teachers have been trained to be able to provide the bare minimal of support for themselves or students? At some point, a cost/benefit analysis might question the wisdom of all of these purchases, hypothetically speaking.

Before we go blindly advocating computers, I think we should recognize the cost vs. benefit relationship too.

[budster101]

Originally Posted by besson3c

If you are talking about e-learning as in learning environments for distance learning, all of the current distance learning environments (e.g. NetG) are absolute CRAP. Flash-card style learning is not a way of understanding things, but memorizing certain things.

I also resent being told that I have no idea what I'm talking about, when you haven't even heard my arguments. Utilizing computers might be the future of education, it might not, but who is to say that it is a viable solution right now?

The problem is, students expect to be entertained. There is so much media which leverages this trend, but who is to say that this is a good thing?

I'm for immersive learning environments (see my Hillary Clinton/Grand Theft Auto thread), but flashy Powerpoint, and other passive learning is not immersive. Unfortunately, most students that I've come into contact with even at the College/University level have passive minds. We should not blindly advocate technology, when the possibility exists that there is a correlation between the way technology is utilized and passive learning.

When did you receive your M.Ed.? I just got mine a year ago, in Instructional Systems Design... and I can asure you there are complimentary learning systems that would compliment traditional learning quite well.

You don't know what you are talking about if you are going to say the things you do... prove me wrong... It is viable now, to COMPLIMENT traditional learning, not replace it. Stop reacting and start responding.

Entertainment is the best style of learning. Think back to your favorite teacher. Was he/she boring or entertaining? People learn in a variety of methods and respond differently to different models. Which one do you subscribe to?

Where did I even mention the attributes associated to my prefered method of online complimentary learning?

There are ways to reinforce the in school curriculum.

- Message Boards
- Live lectures online with transcriptions for download as well as audio
- Online multimedia lessons with quizes, just meant to reinforce the learning initiative
- Feedback
- email for Teacher / Student / Parent interaction

This model seems to work best when providing a hit to every angle of learning.

In developing any sort of model one has to go through a hybrid of the following method.

A. nalysis
D. esign
D. evelopment
I. mplementation
E. valuation

One has to start somewhere and build. Being shot down is no solution, and falling back on CHEAPER and MORE is going to develop nothing but dissent for technology in the classroom. It always has.

[ManOfSteal]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I know this isn't a popular opinion shared here, based on a much earlier thread about this, but...

Do you mean this thread?

All school district laptop deals are retarded

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by budster101

When did you receive your M.Ed.? I just got mine a year ago, in Instructional Systems Design... and I can asure you there are complimentary learning systems that would compliment traditional learning quite well.

I'm not going to continue this conversation with you if all you want to do is turn it into a pissing contest where you attempt to prove to me how you are smarter or otherwise better than me rather than having civil discourse. This is exactly why I've stopped posting to the political lounge.

I have not said that there aren't complimentary learning systems, sorry if I wasn't clear.

You don't know what you are talking about if you are going to say the things you do... prove me wrong... It is viable now, to COMPLIMENT traditional learning, not replace it. Stop reacting and start responding.

There is no way I can disprove your generalization, because I'm not making generalizations. I'm not interested in responding to your aggressive posturing, but please let me know if you'd like to converse in a civil manner.

Entertainment is the best style of learning. Think back to your favorite teacher. Was he/she boring or entertaining? People learn in a variety of methods and respond differently to different models. Which one do you subscribe to?

There is a big difference between making learning fun, and passive learning.


As for the rest of your message, it is sort of irrelevant to my argument. I was not stating that it is impossible to use technology effectively.

I really don't understand how this could have been misunderstood, but I do apologize if my writing wasn't clear.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ManOfSteal

Do you mean this thread?

All school district laptop deals are retarded

Yup! I must admit though, the responses to this thread did sort of sway my thinking to a more moderate stance.

[ManOfSteal]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Yup! I must admit though, the responses to this thread did sort of sway my thinking to a more moderate stance.

Ditto, that thread had some great (civil) discussion.

[Y3a]

All they need to do is ask how much will be provided for virus support. PC's are KNOWN as being 'virus magnets' so anyone with a clue about UNIX/OS X will know they don't have to spend extra bucks and WASTE TIME and risk the possibility of loosing grades etc. They can still use the Office Suite of crappy programs too.

[goMac]

One to One laptop deployments is not about flashy Powerpoint. It's about getting rid of textbooks, getting rid of paper assignments, and improving communication between teachers and their students.

[strictlyplaid]

Originally Posted by goMac

One to One laptop deployments is not about flashy Powerpoint. It's about getting rid of textbooks, getting rid of paper assignments, and improving communication between teachers and their students.

I was a high school math teacher for a while, then went to graduate school to be a college professor... I am not god's gift to classroom management. I made extensive use of our computer labs for assignments, especially in my geometry classes. The biggest hurdle I faced, however, was a lack of any kind of centralized, comprehensive database of computer-based stuff I could use in my classroom that was on the right topics and at the right level of difficulty. I had to patch it all together from stuff I found from 100 sources on the WWW, which was time-consuming and difficult to build into the curriculum. There was quite a bit of stuff for use at the collegiate level or the elementary level, above and below where I needed, and of the stuff at the right level of difficulty, there was a lot of "cherry-picking" of topics that were particularly well-suited to computers. So I still had to use a majority of "traditional" (i.e. non-computer) based teaching techniques.

So, in my non-Masters-Degree-in-Education-holding opinion , this laptop thing could be really nice -- if the major textbook pubishers turned their full resources to developing integrated curriculum stuff for it. As it stands, visits to the lab were probably enough.

[ManOfSteal]

Originally Posted by goMac

One to One laptop deployments is not about flashy Powerpoint. It's about getting rid of textbooks, getting rid of paper assignments, and improving communication between teachers and their students.

I have to disagree with that statement...the technology should only be used as "tool", not as a total replacement for traditional learning. In order to make a 1-to-1 initiative a true success, you have to balance the use of the technology, with the standards of what traditional learning has been founded on.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by goMac

One to One laptop deployments is not about flashy Powerpoint. It's about getting rid of textbooks, getting rid of paper assignments, and improving communication between teachers and their students.

Those are the ideals, and I don't disagree that in many ways these are noble ideals. I'm just not sure, based on everything I've heard and/or experienced first hand, that we are living up to these ideals. I'm not sure the right questions are being asked about *how* to live up to these ideals, I don't think these ideals are understood and shared by everybody, and I'm not sure there are people driving these ideals...

My opinion is shaded by various family members and teachers I've come into contact with who have shared their teaching experiences and personal opinions. If these sort of opinions and experiences exist, I don't think we can just safely assume that everything is hunky-dory and stop asking these probing questions. Asking these questions, I think, is healthy and appropriate. Right now, it seems that there is more emphasis on just getting these computers in the door, whatever that takes.

Perhaps these discussions do go on at a large scale, but I think these arguments are also arguments we need to be aware of, so that we don't become techno-cheerleaders.

That's basically the gist of my point, as it stands now.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Those are the ideals, and I don't disagree that in many ways these are noble ideals. I'm just not sure, based on everything I've heard and/or experienced first hand, that we are living up to these ideals. I'm not sure the right questions are being asked about *how* to live up to these ideals, I don't think these ideals are understood and shared by everybody, and I'm not sure there are people driving these ideals...

My opinion is shaded by various family members and teachers I've come into contact with who have shared their teaching experiences and personal opinions. If these sort of opinions and experiences exist, I don't think we can just safely assume that everything is hunky-dory and stop asking these probing questions. Asking these questions, I think, is healthy and appropriate. Right now, it seems that there is more emphasis on just getting these computers in the door, whatever that takes.

Perhaps these discussions do go on at a large scale, but I think these arguments are also arguments we need to be aware of, so that we don't become techno-cheerleaders.

That's basically the gist of my point, as it stands now.

Well you have to start somewhere. You can't halt laptop deployments just because the teacher doesn't know how to use a laptop. The solution is teaching the teacher how to teach using technology. You need to get the computers in first and then start training and adapting programs. You can't adapt programs for a 1 to 1 deployment program unless the laptops are already there to being the transition on.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by goMac

Well you have to start somewhere. You can't halt laptop deployments just because the teacher doesn't know how to use a laptop. The solution is teaching the teacher how to teach using technology. You need to get the computers in first and then start training and adapting programs. You can't adapt programs for a 1 to 1 deployment program unless the laptops are already there to being the transition on.

Many schools have labs, and these days most people have home computers or access to computers in some fashion. Why do the teachers need laptops, specifically, to start this process?

I recognize there are issues with controlling and governing a class of students using laptops, issues with other sorts of logistics (powering the laptops, allowing students to take them home, teachers making the mental adjustment to the notion that the students will have access to the same software/resources at home), etc. However, I feel that right now, this is overall probably the least of our concerns. There are much broader questions.

[hyperb0le]

I'm quite pissed about this. I will be a senior in a Cobb County high school, and I had an internship lined up with Apple to help with the rollout of these laptops. I may still be able to hang on to the internship because the teachers are still getting iBooks, but I don't know...

[goMac]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Many schools have labs, and these days most people have home computers or access to computers in some fashion. Why do the teachers need laptops, specifically, to start this process?

Because you can't go to a paperless curriculum with a lab. Do you really expect teachers to start taking whole classes to labs for testings? How are you going to insure every child at home has Word? How are you going to make sure each child at home has an internet connection to get assignments with? Are teachers going to take classes to the lab every time they have a paperless handout?

You can't start a laptop program in labs. Rather, we're starting it by doing one to one deployments in specific grades in test schools and expanding out from there.