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mojo2 · Jul 31, 2005, 12:44 AM

Smoking hash and marijuana is illegal in America. Some folks go to Amsterdam FOR the express purpose of partaking of these substances.

Others have reason to be in Amsterdam for other reasons and merely enjoy the mind altering substances while there.

Shouldn't they be held liable for the commission of the crime wherever, simply because it's wrong?

loki74 · Jul 31, 2005, 12:48 AM

I think that they would fall out of the jurisdiction... but they had damn well better be clean when they come back.

Speaking of jurisdiction, wouldn't this fall within the jurisdiction of the PL?

budster101 · Jul 31, 2005, 12:49 AM

So, if nude beaches were against the law in the USA and one went to a nude beach elsewhere in the world, do you think that should be punishable too?

Randman · Jul 31, 2005, 12:50 AM

I don't think you can be prosecuted for doing it in a country where it's legal then going home where it's illegal. Most countries, that is.

But, if you take a drug test for employment and fail, you have no rights when the company declines to hire you.

goMac · Jul 31, 2005, 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by mojo2

Smoking hash and marijuana is illegal in America. Some folks go to Amsterdam FOR the express purpose of partaking of these substances.

Others have reason to be in Amsterdam for other reasons and merely enjoy the mind altering substances while there.

Shouldn't they be held liable for the commission of the crime wherever, simply because it's wrong?

Well, simply put, it's Amsterdam's problem. Not ours. How would you even begin to enforce that? Should we prosecute underage drinking that 19 year old teens do in Germany?

America should worry about pot smoking in America before they worry about it elsewhere.

mojo2 · Jul 31, 2005, 01:00 AM

Originally Posted by budster101

So, if nude beaches were against the law in the USA and one went to a nude beach elsewhere in the world, do you think that should be punishable too?

Hmmm...

Railroader · Jul 31, 2005, 01:05 AM

I'll preface this post with the (probably obvious) statement that I have a very anti-drug agenda.

However, if it's legal in Amsterdam then who cares. Do it in Amsterdam. But don't expect another country to adopt the same laws simply because other countries have made in legal.

I have a friend in Amsterdam who wants to immigrate to the US. And the legality of marijuana and the other agendas that follow are the main reasons she wants to move.

But as Randman says, don't expect a US company to understand during a drug test.

wataru · Jul 31, 2005, 01:06 AM

So you think that just because the US Government™ decides that something should be illegal, that not only makes it wrong, but also means that everyone else in the world must agree? That kind of thinking is just sad.

Railroader · Jul 31, 2005, 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by wataru

So you think that just because the US Government™ decides that something should be illegal, that not only makes it wrong, but also means that everyone else in the world must agree? That kind of thinking is just sad.

HUH?!?! No I did not say that. Where in the world did you get that from my post?

I said: "However, if it's legal in Amsterdam then who cares. Do it in Amsterdam. But don't expect another country to adopt the same laws simply because other countries have made in legal."

Actually, it sounds like you want the US to adopt everyone else's policies on things. Now THAT kind of thinking is very sad indeed!

budster101 · Jul 31, 2005, 01:15 AM

Actually, he said this. It's fine for them to have it legal, but don't expect the rest of the world to follow....
Don't make me open up a can of ebonics on you.

Randman · Jul 31, 2005, 01:20 AM

A little background. I've worked in Singapore the past few years. Very tough on drug offenders. Very, very tough.

It used to be that if someone failed a drug test, they could be charged with possession no matter where the drug was taken.

A couple of years ago, very quietly, the law was changed that if someone fails a drug test and can show that they were somewhere like Amsterdam in a certain amount of time, they would be expelled from the country but not charged with possession.

Now, if a strict anti-drug country such as Singapore has that rule, I would think the US is a bit more lax.

So, to the OP, is there any proof that the US has a law against this sort of thing or are you just assuming?

mojo2 · Jul 31, 2005, 01:29 AM

Originally Posted by Railroader

I'll preface this post with the (probably obvious) statement that I have a very anti-drug agenda.

However, if it's legal in Amsterdam then who cares. Do it in Amsterdam. But don't expect another country to adopt the same laws simply because other countries have made in legal.

I have a friend in Amsterdam who wants to immigrate to the US. And the legality of marijuana and the other agendas that follow are the main reasons she wants to move.

But as Randman says, don't expect a US company to understand during a drug test.

But there are certain things that are just wrong in ANY culture. It is an affront to the human body. And violating the law is as easy as just slipping into a shiny steel tube lounging and dining and dozing or watching movies for a few hours and then, voila? Nirvana???

Don't you think there's something WRONG with that???

goMac · Jul 31, 2005, 01:45 AM

Originally Posted by mojo2

But there are certain things that are just wrong in ANY culture. It is an affront to the human body. And violating the law is as easy as just slipping into a shiny steel tube lounging and dining and dozing or watching movies for a few hours and then, voila? Nirvana???

Don't you think there's something WRONG with that???

Again, if this is your concern, worry about it in America first instead of Amsterdam. I probably saw a few dozen people today alone smoking pot in a public park.

Personally, it's their body. It's not really the governments role to tell people what to do with their own bodies. They can suggest, yes, but they can't force people.

mojo2 · Jul 31, 2005, 01:50 AM

Originally Posted by Randman

A little background. I've worked in Singapore the past few years. Very tough on drug offenders. Very, very tough.

It used to be that if someone failed a drug test, they could be charged with possession no matter where the drug was taken.

A couple of years ago, very quietly, the law was changed that if someone fails a drug test and can show that they were somewhere like Amsterdam in a certain amount of time, they would be expelled from the country but not charged with possession.

Now, if a strict anti-drug country such as Singapore has that rule, I would think the US is a bit more lax.

So, to the OP, is there any proof that the US has a law against this sort of thing or are you just assuming?

My original post doesn't say there IS a law. I'm asking if there SHOULD be a law, like in Singapore! The president of Singapore was interviewed by Charlie Rose and he seemed to be a really cool guy. The streets are clean there, the crime rate is low. Hmmm...

NOTE TO SELF: Google vacation packages to Singapore.

mojo2 · Jul 31, 2005, 01:54 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

Again, if this is your concern, worry about it in America first instead of Amsterdam. I probably saw a few dozen people today alone smoking pot in a public park.

Personally, it's their body. It's not really the governments role to tell people what to do with their own bodies. They can suggest, yes, but they can't force people.

They do it all the time when it's in the individual's best interest or that of the public's in general.

You say you saw a few dozen people today smoking marijuana in a public park? Was that in Amsterdam???

goMac · Jul 31, 2005, 01:58 AM

Originally Posted by mojo2

They do it all the time when it's in the individual's best interest or that of the public's in general.

You say you saw a few dozen people today smoking marijuana in a public park? Was that in Amsterdam???

I would assume it's in Seattle from my location...

Who is the government to determine an individual's best interest? Shouldn't the individual be free to determine that for themselves? It's in my best interests probably not to eat the Double Quarter Pounder with Cheese at McDonalds. Should the government regulate that? What about smoking? Shouldn't that be illegal?

I don't use drugs. I don't like them. But it's my body, I control it. The government does not own my body. Therefore, I should be able to do what I want with it.

Now government supporting public interest, yes, thats a good thing. But to play devil's advocate, what if the government made drugs legal? Suddenly the underground operations to distribute drugs would dissolve, and drug related crime would go down.

AKcrab · Jul 31, 2005, 02:04 AM

Originally Posted by mojo2

You say you saw a few dozen people today smoking marijuana in a public park? Was that in Amsterdam???

You're leading this discussion somewhere, but I can't seem to pinpoint your stance. Is this an "anti drug" thread, or and "anti drug law" thread, or an "international law" thread?

You know full well that laws of the United States apply to people within the jurisdiction of the United States. So what's your real question?

Randman · Jul 31, 2005, 02:08 AM

I don't think there is a real question...

mojo2 · Jul 31, 2005, 02:11 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

I would assume it's in Seattle from my location...

Who is the government to determine an individual's best interest? Shouldn't the individual be free to determine that for themselves? It's in my best interests probably not to eat the Double Quarter Pounder with Cheese at McDonalds. Should the government regulate that? What about smoking? Shouldn't that be illegal?

I don't use drugs. I don't like them. But it's my body, I control it. The government does not own my body. Therefore, I should be able to do what I want with it.

Now government supporting public interest, yes, thats a good thing. But to play devil's advocate, what if the government made drugs legal? Suddenly the underground operations to distribute drugs would dissolve, and drug related crime would go down.

I was aghast at the possibility that people in a big city park in America could smoke marijuana openly. That's why I asked if you saw that in Amsterdam. Benefit of the doubt and all that, you know.

Yes, smoking ANYTHING, and liquour of any kind should be illegal but we've been shown that America likes it's vices.

But what good is the government if they aren't helping increase the health and welfare of the people and discouraging illegal and immoral behavior around the world?

goMac · Jul 31, 2005, 02:22 AM

Originally Posted by mojo2

I was aghast at the possibility that people in a big city park in America could smoke marijuana openly. That's why I asked if you saw that in Amsterdam. Benefit of the doubt and all that, you know.

Yes, smoking ANYTHING, and liquour of any kind should be illegal but we've been shown that America likes it's vices.

But what good is the government if they aren't helping increase the health and welfare of the people and discouraging illegal and immoral behavior around the world?

The park I was at today was wooded enough were people could do it out of view in the woods.

The Government is not really a moral body. It's not a church. It's role is to make sure we don't hurt each other and that everyone is experiencing a full life. They don't own a person's body. A person's body is not property for the Government to dictate what to be done with. You are entitled to your opinion drugs are bad. I share this opinion with you. We have both made the choice not to do drugs for our own bodies. However, I do recognize other people can make other choices with their own bodies that belong to them. Just in the same way that a business can choose not to hire people on drugs.

America instead should educate. A great example is the war on smoking. A lot is going in to education and tv ads about what smoking does. As a result, the number of people smoking is going down. No laws had to be made. Instead, people are freely choosing not to smoke. Those that do are restricted just enough to make sure no one else is damaged by it.

A counter example is prohibition. Prohibition failed completely. People just continued drinking in secret, and crime went up due to smuggling.

PacHead · Jul 31, 2005, 03:01 AM

Hell, Americans shouldn't be prosecuted for smoking weed in America !

There are no legitimate reasons for any laws against marijuana, and tens of millions of Americans willingly break these ridiculous laws all of the time. Marijuana is hugely popular, and no silly prohibition style laws will ever change that, quite the contrary.

Light 'em up !

I'd rather my kids (I don't have any yet, that I'm aware of) smoke a joint than drink lots of legal alcohol. The second choice can be deadly.

mojo2 · Jul 31, 2005, 03:15 AM

Originally Posted by PacHead

Hell, Americans shouldn't be prosecuted for smoking weed in America !

There are no legitimate reasons for any laws against marijuana, and tens of millions of Americans willingly break these ridiculous laws all of the time. Marijuana is hugely popular, and no silly prohibition style laws will ever change that, quite the contrary.

Light 'em up !

I'd rather my kids (I don't have any yet, that I'm aware of) smoke a joint than drink lots of legal alcohol. The second choice can be deadly.

The issue shouldn't be framed either/or, it's better to think of it as neither/nor.

Cubeoid · Jul 31, 2005, 03:21 AM

Woody sez:

mojo2 · Jul 31, 2005, 04:17 AM

Originally Posted by Cubeoid

http://www.circleoflife.org/news/newsletter/2003fall/images/woody-harrelson.jpg

Woody sez:

I have enjoyed Harrelson's work. I like him in spite of his well known marijuana/hemp advocacy. I regret the fact of his father's life of crime, including murder. I wish Woody nothing but the best.

But I don't think he knows what he is doing.

Diggory Laycock · Jul 31, 2005, 05:03 AM

So - if your country should be able to prosecute its citizens for their behaviour outside its jurisdiction, does that mean that other countries should be able to prosecute their citizens for their behaviour when outside their home country?

e.g. a Saudi drinking in the US? A Chinese person speaking his mind about the chinese gov. in a public meeting in the US? A Singaporean for chewing gum in the US?

Jim Paradise · Jul 31, 2005, 05:26 AM

I'd like to think the premise of this thread is a joke, but it's not. This honestly worries you or is a concern of yours?

Ah well...

Athens · Jul 31, 2005, 05:35 AM

Originally Posted by mojo2

Smoking hash and marijuana is illegal in America. Some folks go to Amsterdam FOR the express purpose of partaking of these substances.

Others have reason to be in Amsterdam for other reasons and merely enjoy the mind altering substances while there.

Shouldn't they be held liable for the commission of the crime wherever, simply because it's wrong?

Laws of the land, US laws only affect US land.

Athens · Jul 31, 2005, 05:39 AM

Originally Posted by mojo2

They do it all the time when it's in the individual's best interest or that of the public's in general.

You say you saw a few dozen people today smoking marijuana in a public park? Was that in Amsterdam???

I bet it was in Seattle hehe Vancouver and Seattle are twin cities I would expect to see that in the open there like here.

Athens · Jul 31, 2005, 05:43 AM

btw the US will attempt to interfere with other countries by the use of there own legal systems. Case in point, this week Vancouver Police arrested the leader of the Pot Party because of a DEA investigation. They used our courts and our cops to get to a guy they want and now he is facing a extradition process so he can be sent to the US for charges. Bad enough you guys have a war on drugs, now your trying to get at people in other countries too.

Chris O'Brien · Jul 31, 2005, 06:06 AM

Originally Posted by Railroader

HUH?!?! No I did not say that. Where in the world did you get that from my post?

I said: "However, if it's legal in Amsterdam then who cares. Do it in Amsterdam. But don't expect another country to adopt the same laws simply because other countries have made in legal."

Actually, it sounds like you want the US to adopt everyone else's policies on things. Now THAT kind of thinking is very sad indeed!

We know you didn't say that. I don't think Wataru was referencing you in his post...

Moderator · Jul 31, 2005, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by mojo2

Shouldn't they be held liable for the commission of the crime wherever, simply because it's wrong?

Are you suggesting that illegal = wrong. If so you'd better hit your history books.

moodymonster · Jul 31, 2005, 07:03 AM

no they shouldn't

OB1 · Jul 31, 2005, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by mojo2

Smoking hash and marijuana is illegal in America. Some folks go to Amsterdam FOR the express purpose of partaking of these substances.

Others have reason to be in Amsterdam for other reasons and merely enjoy the mind altering substances while there.

Shouldn't they be held liable for the commission of the crime wherever, simply because it's wrong?

No, I don't think they should. Not when the 'crime' in question is smoking pot. I'm of the opinion that anything that happens between consenting adults is fine. I don't think we should waste all that time and money trying to punish people for doing something that doesn't affect anyone but themselves.

Surely there are much more horrific crimes being committed? What about child-molesters who travel to other countries? The people traffickers? Slave traders? Bloody terrorists! Shouldn't we concentrate our resources there instead?

I've read and taken part in countless Cannabis debates here at MacNN over the years. You know what I've come to realize? Some people just can't stand to see other people having fun.

moodymonster · Jul 31, 2005, 07:15 AM

people should be educated as to the effects of cannabis and that it can be harmful and have long term effects. But as OB1 says, there are people who can't stand to see others enjoy themselves.

Given that we have these various nutjobs running round the place who want to kill us (for whatever reason), surely our efforts are best served by focussing on them, instead of people enjoying themselves hurting no-one.

Eynstyn · Jul 31, 2005, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by OB1

No, I don't think they should. Not when the 'crime' in question is smoking pot. I'm of the opinion that anything that happens between consenting adults is fine. I don't think we should waste all that time and money trying to punish people for doing something that doesn't affect anyone but themselves.

Surely there are much more horrific crimes being committed? What about child-molesters who travel to other countries? The people traffickers? Slave traders? Bloody terrorists! Shouldn't we concentrate our resources there instead?

I've read and taken part in countless Cannabis debates here at MacNN over the years. You know what I've come to realize? Some people just can't stand to see other people having fun.

Wasn't some famous man's son arrested for booking a sex trip to somewhere in South East Asia? I believe he was going to have sex there with minors, legal there I think, but he was arrested because of what he was GOING to do outside of the states which wasn't illegal where he was going to do it.

GranolaBoy · Jul 31, 2005, 08:23 AM

Mojo,

The idea that da weed is morally wrong is offensive. Everyone does something that isn't good for them. EVERYONE. So the idea that THIS bad thing is worse than YOUR bad thing makes you come off as self-righteous.

And that ain't cool.

OreoCookie · Jul 31, 2005, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by mojo2

But there are certain things that are just wrong in ANY culture. It is an affront to the human body. And violating the law is as easy as just slipping into a shiny steel tube lounging and dining and dozing or watching movies for a few hours and then, voila? Nirvana???

Don't you think there's something WRONG with that???

Apparently, the Netherlands don't agree with you on that specific issue. I don't think Americans could even be charged with anything for what they do (legally) in another country. Drinking `underage' in Germany is a good example.

The only trouble you can get into is when you fail drug tests, but then you are in trouble, because you do something illegal within the jurisdiction of the US.

OreoCookie · Jul 31, 2005, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by mojo2

But what good is the government if they aren't helping increase the health and welfare of the people and discouraging illegal and immoral behavior around the world?

Again, it's your stance that smoking pot is illegal and immoral, and if the Dutch were to agree, they had different law, now wouldn't they? If the American government agrees with your stance on drugs they can (and should) enforce it within their borders. That's fine by me.

But shouldn't you respect the Dutch' point of view as well? After all, it's their country

moodymonster · Jul 31, 2005, 09:00 AM

Just because something is illegal (example: alcohol -> prohibition) doesn't mean its bad.

The US doesn't believe in torture, but the US gov't exports people to countries where the law if different and gets them to do it. Therefore even though US law says something shouldn't be done - the US gov't does it. Therefore how could they prosecute people for going to Amsterdam just to smoke.

TETENAL · Jul 31, 2005, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

I don't think Americans could even be charged with anything for what they do (legally) in another country.

A German can be charged with (certain) things that might be legal in the country where it is done ("Auslandsstraftaten"). See §§ 5, 6, 7 StGB.

mojo2 · Jul 31, 2005, 09:05 AM

It's clear how the majority of posters feel on this subject. I stated an unpopular viewpoint. I get it.

OreoCookie · Jul 31, 2005, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

A German can be charged with (certain) things that might be legal in the country where it is done ("Auslandsstraftaten"). See §§ 5, 6, 7 StGB.

That doesn't mean I think it's necessarily a good thing.

OreoCookie · 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by mojo2

It's clear how the majority of posters feel on this subject. I stated an unpopular viewpoint. I get it.

You haven't really argued.
And would you feel better if your point of view was `popular'?

- - e r i k - - · Jul 31, 2005, 09:40 AM

While I certainly admire you stating an unpopular viewpoint, it's easy to see where the collective American world police-mentality stems from.

mojo2 · Jul 31, 2005, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

You haven't really argued.
And would you feel better if your point of view was `popular'?

I was pretty certain of which way the winds blew but now I know at what speed they blow.

There are some times when you need to know these things.

OB1 · Jul 31, 2005, 10:07 AM

And, now you've been able to gauge peoples points of view, do you still feel the same? Should people be prosecuted for going to Amsterdam to consume Cannabis?

OreoCookie · Jul 31, 2005, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by mojo2

I was pretty certain of which way the winds blew but now I know at what speed they blow.

There are some times when you need to know these things.

So did any of the arguments change your mind or did you just conclude that `your point of view is unpopular.' It's not like you put up much of a fight.

Severed Hand of Skywalker · Jul 31, 2005, 11:04 AM

This is the most idiotic thing I have heard in a while.

 · Jul 31, 2005, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

This is the most idiotic thing I have heard in a while.

legacyb4 · Jul 31, 2005, 11:16 AM

In the end, this is where it's going to count unless U.S. Immigration starts on-the-spot urine tests before entering its borders...

Originally Posted by Randman

But, if you take a drug test for employment and fail, you have no rights when the company declines to hire you.