[DarwinX]

I'm not sure if this should be in the Political forum or not, but I'll start here and hope it doesn't get turned into something that needs to be placed there.

The NCAA just issued it's ruling on the use of Indian Mascots in the post season. I'm just curious if anyone has any thoughts on this issue...discuss.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2125735

[jcadam]

WTF? THIS IS BULL$HITT!!!!

[ASIMO]

Someone is just begging to be scalped.

[deomacius]

Political correctness has gone too far. Have Indians been up in arms about this, by the way?

[Ghoser777]

Why don't they ban mascots that are derogatory to other nationalities? Spartans? Fighting Irish?

[DarwinX]

Originally Posted by Ghoser777

Why don't they ban mascots that are derogatory to other nationalities? Spartans? Fighting Irish?

That is a point I like a lot!

And the answer is yes deomacius, Indains have been up in arms about this (though to me it is more PC people who have fueled the fire more so than the Indian groups themselves).

This ruling isn't so bad in that it only affects the post season, but at the end of the day it still sucks. It's my feeling that if a University feels it's campus, athletic teams, academics, alumni relations and or public relations are being hurt due to its mascot, that it will take the matter into it's own hands. I don't feel as if this is something the NCAA had to regulate on.

[Captain Obvious]

I'd be curious to see this go to court. Since none of the names are derogatory per se it's a completely subjective opinion that deems some offensive and not others. I am not sure how far the jurisdiction of the NCAA reaches in terms of limiting the naming of individual private and public institution's mascots but it is possible they over stepped their bounds by sanctioning some schools on these grounds.

I hope there is a lawsuit and the NCAA gets its ass handed to them. Let the schools decide what they want to do.

[dreilly1]

This list seems to be totally arbitrary...

North Carolina-Pembroke, which uses the nickname Braves, will not face sanctions. NCAA president Myles Brand explained said the school's student body has historically admitted a high percentage of American Indians and more than 20 percent of the students are American Indians.

---

Florida State, for example, has received permission from the Seminole tribe in Florida to use the nickname. That, however, will not suffice.

"Other Seminole tribes are not supportive," said Charlotte Westerhaus, the NCAA vice president for diversity and inclusion.

So what exactly is the criteria for having an acceptable Indian-derived mascot? It appears to be somewhere between getting a tribe's permission (not accrptable) and not getting anyone's permission but having lots of Native Americans on campus who like the logo (acceptable)....

At least everyone loves Mr. Met!

[Kevin]

[davesimondotcom]

I think that I would only complain about a team named after me or my heritage if they really, really sucked.

[waxcrash]

You'll have to pry it from my cold, dead hands…

[dreilly1]

Originally Posted by waxcrash

You'll have to pry it from my cold, dead hands…

That, sir, is obviously Offensive.

this, however, is not:

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by deomacius

Political correctness has gone too far. Have Indians been up in arms about this, by the way?

Indians? I doubt Indians have an opinion on this one way or the other.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/in.html

[spacefreak]

I've always thought that those with Indian heritage should be proud that their are teams bearing their moniker. If a major university wanted to name its teams the "Spacefreaks", I'd be pretty pumped up.

I think the whole thing has to do with some of these Natives organizations looking for handouts. In this case, the NCAA is avoiding having to make the payout by instead passing the buck to the schools.

I remember when St. Johns changed their nickname from the Redmen to the Red Storm. Do we definitively know that storms are not offended by this?

[olePigeon]

Oh good. As long as it doesn't effect the Fighting Whities.

Best. Team. Name. Ever.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Ghoser777

Why don't they ban mascots that are derogatory to other nationalities? Spartans? Fighting Irish?

Cuz it's not racist to make fun of white people... or something like that.

[dcmacdaddy]

Well, I know a LOT of native people are not happy about the Washington Redskins but that is a derogatory racial slur. It's the native equivalent of calling them the Washington Niggers. But yeah, naming a team after a tribe doens't seem too offensive. I would think Seminole peoples would feel a sense of pride having the team named after them.

[waxcrash]

It's sports teams now. What's next?

Are the going to make the state of Illinois change its name because it's named after the Illiniwek tribes?

[MallyMal]

I don't know, I think I might be annoyed too if my family/race/tribe was rounded up, killed, kicked off our land and put on reservations to only then be "honored" by having a sports team named after us.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by MallyMal

I don't know, I think I might be annoyed too if my family/race/tribe was rounded up, killed, kicked off our land and put on reservations to only then be "honored" by having a sports team named after us.

People who were there have been dead for centuries. It's about that time to move on.

[waxcrash]

Originally Posted by MallyMal

I don't know, I think I might be annoyed too if my family/race/tribe was rounded up, killed, kicked off our land and put on reservations to only then be "honored" by having a sports team named after us.

They don't complain when casinos are built to honor them.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by waxcrash

They don't complain when casinos are built to honor them.

Oh, good point. Then I propose that a 90% roalty tax on all major sports teams that bare a resemblence to Native Americans. Perhaps that'll help.

[lavar78]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Indians? I doubt Indians have an opinion on this one way or the other.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/in.html

Thank you! If it's time to move on from anything, it's this centuries-old mistake.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Cuz it's not racist to make fun of white people... or something like that.

I don't think there is an intent to make fun of any race with any of these names. In fact, more of an attempt to honor. Otherwise, wouldn't "Braves" be called "Cowards?"

[MallyMal]

Originally Posted by waxcrash

They don't complain when casinos are built to honor them.

You mean the Cherokee Casinos? Probably because those casinos are owned by the Cherokee Nation.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by lavar78

Thank you! If it's time to move on from anything, it's this centuries-old mistake.

I grew up right near the Crow Indian reservation. Everyone I knew who was Crow referred to themselves as Indian.

To "correct" the error of calling these groups of people Indian by calling them Native Americans is simply replacing an old mistake with a new one. I was born and raised in the United States of America. I'm an American. I'm native to America. I'm a native American.

Calling a people Native Americans is as insane as calling all black people African Americans. Even if they are not Americans. (Yes, I have heard people who are actually from Africa called African Americans by politically correct reporters.) And then there are Americans whose relatives originated in Africa who happen to have white skin. They aren't African Americans?

[lavar78]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

To "correct" the error of calling these groups of people Indian by calling them Native Americans is simply replacing an old mistake with a new one. I was born and raised in the United States of America. I'm an American. I'm native to America. I'm a native American.

...which is why the most recent term is "First Americans." Frankly, anything is better than "Indians."

Calling a people Native Americans is as insane as calling all black people African Americans. Even if they are not Americans. (Yes, I have heard people who are actually from Africa called African Americans by politically correct reporters.) And then there are Americans whose relatives originated in Africa who happen to have white skin. They aren't African Americans?

I agree with you. I use "Black" to refer to Americans descended from slaves brought from Africa, "black" to refer to anyone with brown skin, and "African American" to refer to people who immigrated from Africa to America. IMO, the only real African American in the Dave Matthews Band is Dave himself.

[deomacius]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Indians? I doubt Indians have an opinion on this one way or the other.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/in.html

Pfft.

My bad. I meant AMERICAN INDIANS. I guess I assumed everyone here would know who I was talking about. Thanks for the lesson though. </snarky remark>

[rozwado1]

We should just turn all of our racist Indian (feathers) team names into racist Indian (dots) team names. Then let's see if THEY complain...

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by lavar78

...which is why the most recent term is "First Americans." Frankly, anything is better than "Indians."

How do you know anything is better than Indians?

Are you Indian? I mean Native American? I mean First American?

First Americans is even worse, considering there were people here that predate even them.

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by spacefreak

I've always thought that those with Indian heritage should be proud that their are teams bearing their moniker. If a major university wanted to name its teams the "Spacefreaks", I'd be pretty pumped up.

Obviously, you are a megalomaniac in becoming. Seek help, NOW!!!

I think the whole thing has to do with some of these Natives organizations looking for handouts. In this case, the NCAA is avoiding having to make the payout by instead passing the buck to the schools.

I remember when St. Johns changed their nickname from the Redmen to the Red Storm. Do we definitively know that storms are not offended by this?

This is a stupid comment (the comment, not you).

What if a French company doing business in waste management were to call it's organization "Ordures Americaines"? (American Garbage).

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Cuz it's not racist to make fun of white people... or something like that.

White is made of all the colours of the Rainbow, Man!

Peace!

[SVass]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Cuz it's not racist to make fun of white people... or something like that.

Actually, calling a group "whites" in a survey is a racist technique to bury the Catholic and Jewish opinion beneath the majority Protestant viewpoint. Do not believe any oversimplification of people. sam

[Ghoser777]

I like this response:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/colum...amp;id=2126159

[thunderous_funker]

They aren't changing team names. They are specifically talking about Mascots (dudes in costumes) and logos.

Its not for anyone to dictate what is or isn't offensive to a given tribe. If they don't like a mascot or a logo, their views should seriously count.

As for the Fighting Irish, I do know people of Irish descent who find the mascot and logo really offensive but as far as I know the Irish American community at large isn't making a fuss. If they did, I'd expect the school to make changes and respect their views. The mascot doesn't have to look like a douche.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by deomacius

Pfft.

My bad. I meant AMERICAN INDIANS. I guess I assumed everyone here would know who I was talking about. Thanks for the lesson though. </snarky remark>

But, that's the point: the only "American Indians" are those moved to America from India. To refer to the indigenous peoples of North America as "Indians" is to perpetuate a mistake made several hundred years ago by a few men so desperate to say they circumnavigated that they were unable to see the obvious differences from the real Indians.

The indigenous peoples of North America never called themselves "Indians" until they were told to do so by the European invaders.

[lavar78]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

How do you know anything is better than Indians?

Because Indians are from India.

Are you Indian? I mean Native American? I mean First American?

Are you? Is that relevant? If so, do the real Indians get a vote as well?

[keekeeree]

Honor, honor, honor...

Blah, blah, blah...

You know, I'm up to my frickin' eyeballs with being "honored". I'm tired of being "honored" by intoxicated white guys with their ignorant version of ceremonial paint smeared on their faces. I'm tired of being "honored" by fans slapping a head-full of chicken feathers, mimicking sacred eagle feathers, on their kids. I'm sick of being "honored" by gross and stereotypical caricatures such as Cleveland's Chief Wahoo.

How about doing us a favor and honoring somebody else for awhile?

How about honoring Black history and renaming the Atlanta Braves the Atlanta Slaves? Yeah...that'd be cool. Then we can change the logo to some chain links. The fans can paint themselves in black make-up and afro wigs. When a homerun is hit, announcers can scream, "And that one's off the plantation!" instead of the reservation. And instead of selling little tomohawks, we could sell little black dolls with ropes around their necks. The kids would have a grand ol' time swinging those around.

Sarcasm aside, in many cases (other than the Redskins or Clevelands logo) it's not the name so much that's offensive as it is the behavior of many of the fans (and clubs themselves). That kind of ignorance and insensitivity isn't honoring anyone.

And as if all that weren't bad enough, you have people who equate Indigenous people with animals ("...inevitable PETA lawsuit, demanding the elimination of the Tigers, Bengals, Lions..."). We're people. We're humans. We have cultures and religious and spiritual beliefs that are real. And a history in this country that is as inspiring as it is tragic, and is all too often ignored. Or worse, "honored".

[driven]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Actually this is kind of funny. I'm working hard to get my son to stop calling Darth Vader "the black guy".

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by driven

I'm working hard to get my son to stop calling Darth Vader "the black guy".

Your son is just not racist. That is all.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by keekeeree

Honor, honor, honor...

Blah, blah, blah...

You know, I'm up to my frickin' eyeballs with being "honored". I'm tired of being "honored" by intoxicated white guys with their ignorant version of ceremonial paint smeared on their faces. I'm tired of being "honored" by fans slapping a head-full of chicken feathers, mimicking sacred eagle feathers, on their kids. I'm sick of being "honored" by gross and stereotypical caricatures such as Cleveland's Chief Wahoo.

How about doing us a favor and honoring somebody else for awhile?

How about honoring Black history and renaming the Atlanta Braves the Atlanta Slaves? Yeah...that'd be cool. Then we can change the logo to some chain links. The fans can paint themselves in black make-up and afro wigs. When a homerun is hit, announcers can scream, "And that one's off the plantation!" instead of the reservation. And instead of selling little tomohawks, we could sell little black dolls with ropes around their necks. The kids would have a grand ol' time swinging those around.

Sarcasm aside, in many cases (other than the Redskins or Clevelands logo) it's not the name so much that's offensive as it is the behavior of many of the fans (and clubs themselves). That kind of ignorance and insensitivity isn't honoring anyone.

And as if all that weren't bad enough, you have people who equate Indigenous people with animals ("...inevitable PETA lawsuit, demanding the elimination of the Tigers, Bengals, Lions..."). We're people. We're humans. We have cultures and religious and spiritual beliefs that are real. And a history in this country that is as inspiring as it is tragic, and is all too often ignored. Or worse, "honored".

If you are in Chilicothe then that's mound builder territory, right? Are you a member of the Eastern Band of the Cherokee Nation?

[Kevin]

And what is worse is that Indian-litter-tear guy in those 70s commercials wasn't even an Indian!!111

[His Dudeness]

Originally Posted by waxcrash

It's sports teams now. What's next?

Are the going to make the state of Illinois change its name because it's named after the Illiniwek tribes?

I think Pontiac should be sued and be made to change its name, too.

[Kevin]

I say we all learn to speak with the Indians, and end this divide between us all these years.



AND NO MORE SCALPING PLZ!

[jcadam]

Originally Posted by spacefreak

People who were there have been dead for centuries. It's about that time to move on.

More like one century.

[keekeeree]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

If you are in Chilicothe then that's mound builder territory, right? Are you a member of the Eastern Band of the Cherokee Nation?

Right area, wrong tribe. I'm Sisseton/Wahpeton Dakota from eastern South Dakota. Moved here about three months ago.

You must be from around this area 'cause I'd never heard of Chillicothe before I applied for a job here.

[Doofy]

Stupid foreigner type question:
What the heck is the NCAA?

[dreilly1]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Stupid foreigner type question:
What the heck is the NCAA?

National Collegiate Athletic Assn. = The main (but not the only) governing body for college and university sports in the US.

[budster101]

I don't even care if someone already said it, but the INDIAN that represents the U of I is really an Indian...

This is idiotic.

[keekeeree]

Originally Posted by budster101

I don't even care if someone already said it, but the INDIAN that represents the U of I is really an Indian...

This is idiotic.

U of I has an official Indian representative? I certainly hope you don't mean this guy: