[suvsr4terrorists]

http://www.witch-crafted.com/natpar.htm

I came across this link while searching for lycopene information...but this is pretty interesting. She makes a lot of valid points... any of you know anything about this?

[Scandalous Ion Cannon]

"The benefits of co-sleeping are endless."
- Michael Jackson

Oh a side not this guy sounds like an idiot modern hippy.

[Cody Dawg]

My children all slept with us growing up. At about the age of 3 to 4 they start to go to their own bedrooms and beds on their own. Our little one, 16 months, sleeps in our bed with us. One of the best things is that when we all go to bed, all the kids come in and pile on the bed and we all talk and laugh. I kick our 12-year old out or he'd probably fall asleep there talking to us. I was a breastfeeding mom with all of them so having them sleep with us was not that unnatural because if the baby was hungry he just rolled over and was able to nurse. Our kids are all very affectionate and kind to each other. Co-sleeping is not a new phenomenon...all kinds of people all over the world do it. It is only Europeans and Western countries that seem to want to shuffle children off to sleep all by themselves as soon as possible. I cringe when I hear of parents that have their infants and babies shut up in their own room somewhere else in the house. How rigid and lonely for the baby.

[KeriVit]

Not taking a stand, but there are some good points made there....

[DeathMan]

We've had quite a heated discussion about this in the past. I used to move around quite a bit while sleeping, and even now do somewhat. I wouldn't want to elbow in the face, or roll over onto my young child. Especially an infant.

[Ghoser777]

How about this bed?

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/M...dItemId=218246

[Kerrigan]

Frankly if I had children (which I don't because I'm a h@m0 and I'm a student so I need to spend all of my money on drink drink drink) I would want them as far away from me as possible at night. I wouldn't want my kids to become emotionally needy and develop and Oedipal complex all because I wanted snuggle up with them at night.

I don't even like to touch my parents, whether it is a hug or pat on the back. Maybe it is because of the British/Western values with which we were all brought up. Separation from one's parents IMHO is much healthier than spooning with them at night.

[osxisfun]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

My children all slept with us growing up. At about the age of 3 to 4 they start to go to their own bedrooms and beds on their own. Our little one, 16 months, sleeps in our bed with us. One of the best things is that when we all go to bed, all the kids come in and pile on the bed and we all talk and laugh. I kick our 12-year old out or he'd probably fall asleep there talking to us. I was a breastfeeding mom with all of them so having them sleep with us was not that unnatural because if the baby was hungry he just rolled over and was able to nurse. Our kids are all very affectionate and kind to each other. Co-sleeping is not a new phenomenon...all kinds of people all over the world do it. It is only Europeans and Western countries that seem to want to shuffle children off to sleep all by themselves as soon as possible. I cringe when I hear of parents that have their infants and babies shut up in their own room somewhere else in the house. How rigid and lonely for the baby.

this explains so much....

[Cody Dawg]

I don't even like to touch my parents, whether it is a hug or pat on the back. Maybe it is because of the British/Western values with which we were all brought up. Separation from one's parents IMHO is much healthier than spooning with them at night.

I feel sorry for you.

Maybe that's why you're gay, ever think of that?

I'm saying that not to be nasty or to hurt your feelings, but in all honesty. Children deserve as much love as they can soak up.

[suvsr4terrorists]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I feel sorry for you.

Maybe that's why you're gay, ever think of that?

I'm saying that not to be nasty or to hurt your feelings, but in all honesty. Children deserve as much love as they can soak up.

Agreed. Spooning is natural. Being weirded out about hugging your parents is not natural.

[Scandalous Ion Cannon]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I feel sorry for you.

Maybe that's why you're gay, ever think of that?

I'm saying that not to be nasty or to hurt your feelings, but in all honesty. Children deserve as much love as they can soak up.

No because being gay is something you are born with and not psychological damage.

[Ghoser777]

Nature versus nurture - an undecided debate.

[QuadG5Man]

This thread is now closed

- God

[Cody Dawg]

Thank you. It IS undecided. And, having spent the afternoon with a couple of my gay friends in Fort Lauderdale, we discussed "how" they became gay. One of thinks he was born that way and the other one was beaten up routinely by his mother and now women frighten him - literally. He said that he has never recovered from growing up despised. It is very sad.

[Cody Dawg]

Also, I'm not going to launch into a "why my kids are so great" thread because it would probably make some people want to throw up, but I DO think my kids are really great. Well mannered, polite, compassionate, and my 12-year old is extremely bright and an honor student who takes college math classes.

He is now trying to show me some "tricks" on Mac OS so gotta go...

[Scandalous Ion Cannon]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Thank you. It IS undecided. And, having spent the afternoon with a couple of my gay friends in Fort Lauderdale, we discussed "how" they became gay. One of thinks he was born that way and the other one was beaten up routinely by his mother and now women frighten him - literally. He said that he has never recovered from growing up despised. It is very sad.

Fine, I believe SOME people can be gay because of abuse but it is no way the norm.

heck most female strippers turn lesbo because they have little or no respect for the slimy men that treat them like trash.

[sminch]

i'd always heard that letting your small children sleep in your bed can be a bad idea (eg. http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9909/29/ad...d.journal.wmd/)

not sure if this is exactly up there with letting them play with shotguns or wander the streets at two in the morning, but it gets a reasonable amount of air time here in new zealand as we have a really high cot death rate...

now, back to the proto slanging match!

sminch

[Railroader]

We had our daughter in the same room on a small bed that was attatched to ours for 4 months so my wife could sooth and feed the baby in the middle of the night. After that we moved her into a crib in her own room, but the moment she fussed or cried we were right in there to sooth her. We bought a very expensive Sony baby moniter for this purpose. My wife would sometimes go in there in the middle of the night and sleep in an extra bed we had that was placed a few feet away from the crib. Now, at 22 months our daughter tells us "Go to bed. Light out. Sleep. Night mummy n daddy." and then shoos us out. But then she's an pretty creative and independent child and doesn't need us to play with her all the time. Who knows how our son will be. We don't want to have a baby actually in the same bed with us because my wife is an extremely active sleeper and our bed is very high from the ground and we are afraid that the child will fall off the bed and get hurt.

I think family beds are fine for a couple years, but it's nice to have some privacy sometimes.

[Cody Dawg]

Yeah, the privacy thing is good.



What usually happens is that we sneak off to the twin bed in our son's bedroom...he ends up with the luxurious queen with the pillowtop mattress and we're on the little twin bed.

[bstone]

Nature via nature, anyone?

[suvsr4terrorists]

It just seems that, as animals, humans were made to 'nest' like that in a family group. If we were to travel to any country outside of western culture, I guarantee the baby sleeps with the mother, at least for a while. Throwing a baby in it's own bed without a warm body for it to snuggle up to does seem very very... artificial and cruel.

[Railroader]

I love it, a guy who's never had children and never studied human development telling parents his opinion on how to raise children.

Next you'll be giving Bible lessons to Christians.

[suvsr4terrorists]

I have been a kid, and I have had a ****ed up family life. My parents got divorced when I was 5, my mom remarried her high school sweetheart, he was an asshole, now both are single. I have my dad's analytical logical brain, and my mom's 'go against the flow' mentality. The funny thing is I'd be willing to bet ANYTHING that Jesus slept with his mom quite a bit. This idea of leaving your infant in a bed by itself goes against everything we see in nature, and most countries and cultures.

[Sosa]

Before I had a child (ie a 5 year stepson) I thought sleeping with kids was ridiculous because it would encourage dependence. However I remember as a kid at first I slept in a separate bed in my parent's bedroom and as soon as my father left for work at 5am I would hop to my mom's side and slept soundly. When I slep alone I thought I could hear witch voices, etc, so it used to freak me out (hmm, maybe it was my parents!). Anyway, as a stepfather I've understood a child's need to be close to his parents, especially at night. While I definitely want to teach independence, specially on a boy, I also understand a child natural fears and desire to be close. It now seems cruel to me to have a young child sleep alone in a bedroom when he/she doesn't want to. I let my step son sleep at the foot of our bed, on a comforter and double carpet. Not as comfortable as his bed but that's the point. Occasionally, if he has had a traumatic day I let him share our bed. There may be other issues going on here though, perhaps the absence of his real father creates some kind of greater need to be close to us.

Bottom line, I now believe that allowing young children to share their parent's bedroom is acceptable and depending on the child perhaps necessary.

[suvsr4terrorists]

Seems that children aren't very independant for the first 5 years of their life anyways. They need parents.

[Paco500]

My son mostly slept in our bed until he was 2 at which time he wanted a "big boy bed" and his own room. He went y his own choice and has been a good sleeper ever since.

We have a 1 year old daughter who sleeps in the bed with us= we'll have to see how that goes.

Privacy is not an issue- it's a big house.

I don't fault other's choices, but this has worked for us and it feels right.

[Paco500]

And for the record- I was a wild sleeper- would destroy the covers- drove my wife insane.

When the kids are in bed- I'm a rock, never move. If I'm traveling or in a bed alone for some other reason, I'm a maniac again. The body knows to chill out. I'm not saying that it's not possible to roll over on your kid, but I think it's pretty damn unlikely.

[wdlove]

He has some interesting points. I know some that home school. Seems to be very successful.

[Millennium]

I very much doubt that co-sleeping would produce overly-dependent children, provided that the child is "weaned" from the practice at an appropriate age. Perhaps a gradual process might be called for: six months sleeping in the bed, then six months sleeping in one of those bedside cribs that you see nowadays, then six months in a separate crib in the same room, then using a separate room. Obviously, the timing of these changes would need to be adjusted on a case-by-case basis, but this idea should allow for the nurturing effects of co-sleeping when it is most critical, gradual adjustment to sleeping apart.

Have there been any studies done which employed a technique like this? Perhaps the times would need to be adjusted -maybe a full year of true co-sleeping before moving to the bedside crib would be appropriate in more cases?- but the basic idea seems sound.

[suvsr4terrorists]

I would think skipping the crib entirely would be the best idea. Let them sleep with you til they're about 2 or so.

Edit: One thing I hadn't thought of... kids wet the bed. Blech. I don't want to sleep in piss, that's for sure.

[MacNStein]

Originally Posted by Scandalous Ion Cannon

No because being gay is something you are born with and not psychological damage.

In some cases it is, in some cases it isn't.

[MacNStein]

Originally Posted by Scandalous Ion Cannon

heck most female strippers turn lesbo because they have little or no respect for the slimy men that treat them like trash.

This is the case with Sarra. She hated men because of the trash that came into the club she worked at... but then, it's like I told her, "You worked as a stripper, that's not the kind of place where you find decent guys."

[Sosa]

I agree with most of the author's thoughts on child rearing. Regarding home schooling I do not doubt that with attentive and dedicated parents, children can learn faster than at school. However teaching children requires time and ability. Most of us have the ability, probably up to an 8th grade level in all subjects, but what about time? I suppose if one parent can maintain the family economically, then the other parent can educate the children. Of course, that parent would be abandoning a career. But sacrifices should be made for your child's best interests.

[cdetdi]

It is hard to discuss a topic that can be so dramatically circumstantial. I think everyone is touching on lots of good points and sharing individual experiences with it. I especially like Paco's point of the body knowing when to "chill out". In any event, this issue revolves entirely around the development of a child. We aren't talking about the social acceptance or other ideals, we're dealing with what actions will allow a child to become a fully independent, but very supported, person. Allowing a child to sleep with his/her parents for a long time might create a dependence. The website originally linked does a good job of explaining away this objection, that parents need to be depended on, but, there is a difference between survival dependance (a "fall back option" if you will) and everyday dependance in everyday life. On another note, the website references many animal species that have parents and children sleeping together, but this point is _extremely_ moot considering there are countless more species that have children and leave them. Saying birds sleep with their children so we should is no more of an argument than turtles leave their children so we should leave them too. The actions of difference species are practices developed for the survival of the young and the species as a whole. A baby turtle has a much better chance of surviving on its own than a baby bird does. As humans, we don't need to worry about survival, but we do have to worry about our, probably much more complex, personal development. There is nothing inherently wrong about being dependent on a parent, or anyone for that matter, but such dependance can be incredibly inhibitive of the development of other inter-personal skills.

I think that many children who do sleep with their parents all the time are much more dependent on their parents in social aspects than children that don't. I'm not suggesting that they are connected, but that, perhaps, studies that research this are tainted because there might not be many very independent children who just happen to sleep with their parents. Sleeping alone is an important part of establishing oneself as a sovereign person. Even so, sleeping with someone does not make anyone less mature. The important part is being _able_ to sleep alone. Being unable to sleep alone, without one's parents in this case, is an extreme roadblock for development to adulthood.

Some children will be fine with or without their parents by their side, but some children won't be able to separate easily, and as they get older, the separation has the potential to become more difficult. It is still case by case, parents need to recognize when their actions are stopping the development of their child and act accordingly. Some may never see this, other may see it very quickly. Parents with multiple children can attest to the circumstantial nature of this issue. Sometimes, the younger child will be able to, or wish to, sleep on their own before an older child.

A problem lies in the parental ability to recognize and provide the amount of support needed. I was a nurtured child that had a rebellion, putting a natural end to the nurturing. Some children won't have the urge to separate themselves, and then parents need to, in a way, put aside their attachments and urges to nurture their children and really push their children to expand their lives. Part of this might be making the parents bedroom "off-limits".

cdetdi

[Miniryu]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Frankly if I had children (which I don't because I'm a h@m0 and I'm a student so I need to spend all of my money on drink drink drink) I would want them as far away from me as possible at night. I wouldn't want my kids to become emotionally needy and develop and Oedipal complex all because I wanted snuggle up with them at night.

I don't even like to touch my parents, whether it is a hug or pat on the back. Maybe it is because of the British/Western values with which we were all brought up. Separation from one's parents IMHO is much healthier than spooning with them at night.

I hate to break it to you, but if you going to develope an Oedipal complex, it will happen regardless of sleeping with your parents. Developing one is normal: they happen then you get over it.
I want to reiterate that it isn't normal to not want to touch your parents- it sounds like they pushed you away a whole lot more than just not sleeping with you as a baby.

[suvsr4terrorists]

Originally Posted by cdetdi

On another note, the website references many animal species that have parents and children sleeping together, but this point is _extremely_ moot considering there are countless more species that have children and leave them. Saying birds sleep with their children so we should is no more of an argument than turtles leave their children so we should leave them too.

You read that totally wrong. It said all the animals that care for their young, ie, feed them, also sleep with them. I turtle does not care for it's offspring, thus it does not sleep with them. Any animal that cares and protects it's young while they grow up does sleep with them.

[suvsr4terrorists]

Originally Posted by cdetdi

I think that many children who do sleep with their parents all the time are much more dependent on their parents in social aspects than children that don't. I'm not suggesting that they are connected, but that, perhaps, studies that research this are tainted because there might not be many very independent children who just happen to sleep with their parents. Sleeping alone is an important part of establishing oneself as a sovereign person. Even so, sleeping with someone does not make anyone less mature. The important part is being _able_ to sleep alone. Being unable to sleep alone, without one's parents in this case, is an extreme roadblock for development to adulthood.

I can see that. But when a kid is under 2 years old, I don't see how sleeping with their parents would create any problems.... in fact, I'd say the best idea would be to let the kid decide when to leave. Just like animals in the wild.

[Paco500]

Originally Posted by cdetdi

I think that many children who do sleep with their parents all the time are much more dependent on their parents in social aspects than children that don't.

This would be very hard to measure, but with my experience, one of our children is much more independent that the other, and we co-slept/sleep with both. The younger, BTW, that is still in bed with us, is much more independent than her older brother.

As far as the ability to sleep on their own, they both can do it. When we are traveling, we have put the daughter down on her own and she sleeps by herself just fine. The older has been on his own for two years and requires parental intervention no more than once or twice a month (bad dreams- not felling well). I would assume this is pretty normal.

[cdetdi]

You read that totally wrong. It said all the animals that care for their young, ie, feed them, also sleep with them. I turtle does not care for it's offspring, thus it does not sleep with them. Any animal that cares and protects it's young while they grow up does sleep with them.

Fair enough, I was trying to use that example to move on to the fact that species that do that do it for survival, if anything. We don't need it for survival, therefore making it not applicable. I guess is misrepresented what I was getting at.

I can see that. But when a kid is under 2 years old, I don't see how sleeping with their parents would create any problems.... in fact, I'd say the best idea would be to let the kid decide when to leave. Just like animals in the wild.

Agreed, but what happens if the kid doesn't decide to leave? That is the problem...

This would be very hard to measure, but with my experience, one of our children is much more independent that the other, and we co-slept/sleep with both. The younger, BTW, that is still in bed with us, is much more independent than her older brother.

As far as the ability to sleep on their own, they both can do it. When we are traveling, we have put the daughter down on her own and she sleeps by herself just fine. The older has been on his own for two years and requires parental intervention no more than once or twice a month (bad dreams- not felling well). I would assume this is pretty normal.

Perfect example of co-sleeping being non-inhibitive. Everyone has bad nights, and forcing a child to sleep on his/her own after some traumatic experience (memories of sci-fi horror films that would make me a nervous wreck) seems cruel.

Personally, if my child is able to sleep on his/her own, I would encourage it happening as much as possible, just for my own comfort.

Moving on from this original question, what should a parent do when he/she realizes that his/her children are unable to sleep on their own? What is the best action? Pushing them to sleep on their own every other night, having them spend a hour or so and then moving them to their own bed? How do you separate without creating the potential for feelings of abandonment?

cdetdi

[Paco500]

Originally Posted by cdetdi

Moving on from this original question, what should a parent do when he/she realizes that his/her children are unable to sleep on their own? What is the best action? Pushing them to sleep on their own every other night, having them spend a hour or so and then moving them to their own bed? How do you separate without creating the potential for feelings of abandonment?

cdetdi

I have no idea how we will handle it if our Daughter has a hard time going into her own bed. My hope is that she will eventually want her own space, just like her big brother has. I'm sure will not go the route of dumping her and letting her cry it out. I'm sure it can work and many people I know have done this and have healthy happy well-adjusted kids. My hope is by the time we're ready for her to go, she have enough of a foundation of security that she will not have an issue. I think a big part of the success of my son going off on his own is that we have never once said- "you're a big boy now, you have to sleep by yourself." If he's needed us- we were there for him. It has always been his choice to be on his own. We've also never used his space as a place of punishment- sending him to his room for misbehaving. When he gets the dreaded time-out- it's never to his room. His room is a sanctuary- which I think helps.

[suvsr4terrorists]

Originally Posted by cdetdi

Fair enough, I was trying to use that example to move on to the fact that species that do that do it for survival, if anything. We don't need it for survival, therefore making it not applicable. I guess is misrepresented what I was getting at.

No, but we do need parents for survival. A baby cannot crawl around on its own and take care of itself, just like baby birds cannot fly around and get food, escape from predators, etc etc. For something more closely related, look at monkeys. They sleep together, and eventually the young one sleeps where it wants?

Agreed, but what happens if the kid doesn't decide to leave? That is the problem...

What if he grew two heads? What then? What if he became somehow fused with the bed, and couldn't go to school? What if? Bleh. I'd have to say that's a stupid question. I'm sure that EVERY kid would want to leave and have their own room eventually. The ones that want to stay til they're 18 are the same ones living in their mother's basements.

Moving on from this original question, what should a parent do when he/she realizes that his/her children are unable to sleep on their own? What is the best action? Pushing them to sleep on their own every other night, having them spend a hour or so and then moving them to their own bed? How do you separate without creating the potential for feelings of abandonment?

Leave candy? I don't know. I can't see a kid wanting to sleep with their parents much after the age of 10. That'd just be kinda strange. An occasional nap might be okay, I remember napping against my dad when I was 17 while watching TV. >shrug<

[Kerrigan]

I don't know of anyone who likes to be touched by their parents, except for this weird BF I had who was always sitting in his mum's lap.

[suvsr4terrorists]

So you're weirded out when you get a hug?
Or when they pat you on the back? Or when they pat your hand?

You're the weirdo. Sorry.

[MacNStein]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

I don't know of anyone who likes to be touched by their parents, except for this weird BF I had who was always sitting in his mum's lap.

Huh?!? I'm always hugging my mom and dad, wrestling with dad sometimes, kissing my mom on the cheek. But then, my mom's hispanic (Cuban), and we've always been comfortable with showing affection. It's a cultural thing.

[Kerrigan]

I give my parents perhaps 6 big hugs per year, and those occur whenever I am going off on some vacation or back to university. all the other hugs I pretend to enjoy, but I'm thankful when they're over.

[suvsr4terrorists]

You were an abused child.

[Kerrigan]

Come to Scotland and try to find someone who wants to hug and kiss their parents. You won't.

[Cody Dawg]

That's a lie. I have friends in Scotland (from the Mellon banking family, actually) and I visited them every year and they were always patting their children on their heads, patting them, and giving them hugs.

Don't try to say that the Scots are not able to express their emotions or are not affectionate. It's a blatant untruth.

And, yes, I do think that something is not quite right in your head if you think giving or receiving a hug is a terrible thing. Are you that way with animals also?

I feel sorry for you, Kerrigan. You've really lost out on a wonderful human experience.

[olePigeon]

I'm a terrible sleeper. I fall off my bed more times than I can count. Half the time I manage a complete 180 while keeping my bed covers on, and don't know how it happens. I don't think it's safe in my bed.

[suvsr4terrorists]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Come to Scotland and try to find someone who wants to hug and kiss their parents. You won't.

Probably because they all get drunk and whip their children with belts.