[Athens]

I couldnt see any posts about this so I made one. If there is already a topic, Mod delete. Anyways hard to believe this has been missed

http://www.hardmac.com/niouzcontenu.php?date=2005-08-10

[budster101]

Amazing.

[starman]

Mirrors?

[Big Mac]

<broken-hearted troll mode>Even with Apple/Intel's vaunted TCPA chips the dev box OS was apparently hacked. I really hate to say we told you so, but it seems that this is just a prelude of what is to come. Reason #1252 why Apple's Intel PC switch may well be the death of the Mac</broken-hearted troll mode>

[Y3a]

With a bunch of copies of OS X running on Intel Platforms making it clear that it was never about hardware but the fact that the windows OS just sux?

[budster101]

Actually the hardware sux for the most part... the only decent machines out there other from Apple are:

IBM

... pricey too.

Maybe Sony.

But forget about

HP
COMCRAP
TOSHIBA

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

<broken-hearted troll mode>Even with Apple/Intel's vaunted TCPA chips the dev box OS was apparently hacked. I really hate to say we told you so, but it seems that this is just a prelude of what is to come. Reason #1252 why Apple's Intel PC switch may well be the death of the Mac</broken-hearted troll mode>

If people decide to start running Mac OS X, what is preventing them from buying Apple hardware?

[jasonsRX7]

If it's cracked (like it appears to be) Apple will just play leap frog by disabling it with every Software Update, and then it'll be cracked again, and then fixed again...

And personally, I hope that's what they do, otherwise I'll be too tempted to run OSX86 on a Thinkpad T40 series. I would ditch my Powerbook in a second for another T43.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

<broken-hearted troll mode>Even with Apple/Intel's vaunted TCPA chips the dev box OS was apparently hacked. I really hate to say we told you so, but it seems that this is just a prelude of what is to come. Reason #1252 why Apple's Intel PC switch may well be the death of the Mac</broken-hearted troll mode>

I hate to say "I told you so," but I'm going to tell you so again: These are freakin' dev boxes with generic Intel hardware. We still know jack about what will be in the actual product.

[Jabrwock]

I'm not surprised, seeing how the TPM is a device like any other, and drivers can be "fixed" to give a fake reply (both an upside and a downside to *nix drivers), but jasonRX7 has a good point, Apple can just make an MD5 of the TPM driver, and so every time they do a software update it reverts it back to the "Apple only". Of course this won't stop people, it will just make Joe Average unable to use OS X on a non-Apple machine.

But any poweruser will know how to fix it, and will be able to correct the driver as soon as Apple patches it. It will be a pain, but someone who's willing to take the time will be able to do it.

[budster101]

Dat's teh shizzle fo nizzle.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by budster101

Dat's teh shizzle fo nizzle.

You like this development? Please explain to me how it won't kill Apple's hardware business, assuming the hacking trend continues as it has.

[meelk]

Apple is moving out of hardware anyway. The same people who dont see this now are the same ones who were blind to the x86 shift.

[budster101]

Ok.

I like to see it, but I know it's bad for Apple hardware so I don't want to see it happen en mass.
I think the way to go is to hardwire protection into the chips. Trusted Computing of sorts.

[Chuckit]

Okay, let's say I am blind to that. Why is Apple moving out of the field that makes up the vast, vast majority of its revenue? Does Steve just really hate money?

[zanyterp]

meelk: what makes you say that apple is moving out of hardware? and why does my not seeing this mean that i was blind to the x86 shift (by blind, are you referring to that it was coming and not seeing it as going to happen?)?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by meelk

Apple is moving out of hardware anyway. The same people who dont see this now are the same ones who were blind to the x86 shift.

Naw, if Apple moves out of hardware, it wont be anytime SOON.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by meelk

Apple is moving out of hardware anyway. The same people who dont see this now are the same ones who were blind to the x86 shift.

I can't see that happen any day soon. Hardware is where Apple makes money. Hardware is what guarantees the user experience. MS would have released Vista ages ago if they had control over the hardware.

[Big Mac]

Scenario 1: For Apple to exist as a hardware-software company, it needs to make the opportunity cost of running its OS on alternate boxes very high. With OS X-x86, the cost associated with making OS X run on alternative hardware is now apparently much lower.

Scenario 2: For Apple to exist as a software company, it must a) make OS X-Intel compatible with a wide range of PC hardware, just as Microsoft spends huge sums to do; it must b) make OS X-Intel profitable enough to compensate for the sustained losses that will be incurred by the hardware division during the transition; c) in order to make OS X-Intel profitable, Apple has to go to great lengths to prevent piracy, a task at which M$ has failed miserably.

Scenario 3: Apple may just to choose to proceed on the path it appears to be traveling. That is the most likely course, and the outcome will not be a joyous one.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

...and the outcome will not be a joyous one.

Why would that be?

[Link]

Well of course, Apple'll make a fortune peddling $130 copies of OS X with no product activation whatsoever to cheap asians with their l33t antec-cased machines.

NOT!

I predict OS X will simply become a popularly pirated addition to windows "For when I'm not playing games", just like linux is nowadays (except for the pirated part).

Time to unleash the big guns.

[sek929]

The iMac is the only reason Apple is still around, I bought one. iPod secured it as "cool" and "hip"

OSX is only software, software cannot save Apple, they need to sell machines or accesories, not just OSes that everyone else is happy enough not using anyways.

[effgee]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

... Please explain to me how it won't kill Apple's hardware business, assuming the hacking trend continues as it has.

Any (DRM-like and/or partially software-based) protective measure Apple comes up with to prevent OS X from being installed on non-Apple hardware will be cracked within a matter of days (more likely: hours) - no doubt about that.

Do you honestly think that the folks at Apple are going to be surprised by this? Do you believe for a second that they weren't/aren't aware of this?



Moreover, and because I am a nosy bastard: In your opinion, what percentage of Apple's (current/potential) customer base will be google'ing for "Mac OS X Intel crack" before deciding whether or not they're going to buy Intel-based Apple hardware?

0.5%, 0.75%, 1% ?

I seriously doubt that this is going to make even the slightest dent in Apple's hardware sales.

Also - anyone remember what exactly was, at least in part, responsible for the rise of Flash as the de facto standard in web animation? Yup. Piracy. I'd almost be willing to bet money that someone at Apple would actually consider a certain, "healthy" level of piracy to be a very effective "grass roots marketing campaign"

Just my 2/100th of a buck.

[goMac]

I would also bet Apple wanted this to happen. I bet Apple is watching all of this right now gauging interest. Think about it, they had plenty of time to dispatch the lawyers and shut down these sites in the last few weeks before they made the final cracks.

[Mastrap]

effgee:

Nobody cares about the 0.5% of geeks who'll be prepared to jump through the hoops Apple will no doubt put up to crack OSX and run it on a generic machine. Until Apple releases the next update, closing that gap again.

The vast majority of Mac users want their machines to just work and earn their keep.

[sek929]

I dunno, I have a lot of nerd PC friends...

If they could hook it up I'd probably opt for the cheaper hardware with the awesome OS.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by sek929

I dunno, I have a lot of nerd PC friends...

If they could hook it up I'd probably opt for the cheaper hardware with the awesome OS.

As far as numbers are concerned, nobody cares. Let them go for it. Let them play with it. Once they stop being nerds, grow up, start making some money and need a computer that actually works they'll change.

[jcadam]

I wouldn't be at all suprised if the switch to intel is Phase I of Apple's master plan to scuttle its hardware business and become a software, entertainment/music, and fancy gadget company. Though they may continue to sell high-end workstation class PowerMacs, XServes, and PowerBooks, and they would become just another Sun or SGI on the Hardware side of things (High quality, low volume products, for the enthusiasts who are willing to pay more to get 'nicer' stuff).

The iMac/iBook would be the first to die if OSX were opened up to non-proprietary hardware.

I can't say I'm not tempted to going back to building my own PC boxen

Going back to the link provided by the original poster, what disturbs me more, as far as computing in general goes, is M$'s decision to deliberately break OpenGL in Windows Vista to force the industry to go Direct3D exclusively. That is just unethical and another example of monopolistic behavior, but Bill Gates has been given free license by the DOJ to do whatever the hell he wants.

[meelk]

Sure, I didnt say it would happen SOON, but Apple is undoubtably on the road to software only. They will expand into the x86 market with hardware only first, and cracked osx will start to chip away at MS's pie until it reaches a point steve "reluctantly" releases open osx for the pc community.
The "Oh Apple HAS to sell hardware" thing will be obsolete once they gain enough of the marketplace with osx and their other software. You dont have to sell hardware to be profitable, look at MS.

[goMac]

I think Apple will continue to sell their own hardware, but they will pull out of the low end market entirely. Apple wants to continue selling the BMW of hardware, they will leave it to Dell to sell the Ford Fiesta's of hardware while allowing them to run OS X. Apple will stay in the hardware niche they are in, but take OS X out of that niche.

[Kerrigan]

Apple is going to have to do a lot of manoeuvring in the next few years. It might be in their best interest to buy back their stock and go private for a while in order to deal with the dangerous post-iPod Macintel world.

[olePigeon]

Apple stated many times that the hardware and OS that the developers have is no indication of what will be available by the time Leopard and the final x86 Mac incarnations ship.

Not to mention that install process to get OS X to work is combersome. Install Darwin on a PC, take the HDD out, put it in another computer, install the patch for the computer you want to run it on, install Aqua on top of Darwin, run Pacficist to install the other packages...

I think that's a deterent enough to keep your average user from even attempting it. The hardcore geeks will do it, of course, but it's not exactly easy.

I don't think there's any worry. The majority of people would buy a Mac and get OS X for free with it to avoid the hassle.

Hell, there're articles about people throwing out their PCs instead of trying to deal with the spyware that gets infected. Maybe those same people will get a Mac the next time, instead.

[Spliff]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

effgee:

Nobody cares about the 0.5% of geeks who'll be prepared to jump through the hoops Apple will no doubt put up to crack OSX and run it on a generic machine. Until Apple releases the next update, closing that gap again.

I think that number is more like 15%.

I just don't want OS X running on ugly machines. It's like seeing a obese, scabby man of 73 dating a hot young model. Aesthetically, it's a crime worthy of the death penalty.

Or it's like putting the engine from a Porsche 911 Turbo into a rusted out junker like an AMC Pacer. It shouldn't be allowed to happen.

It's a violation. It's dirty. It's rape. It's plain WRONG!

Argghh! I can't handle the thought of OS X running on an ugly PC box.

Gawd, where's my valium? Must have valium now.

[jcadam]

Well, it is easier to make strategic decisions that result in short-term loss if you don't have shareholders to answer to.

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by goMac

Apple wants to continue selling the BMW of hardware

Even BMW these days is selling stripped down 1-series cars and bloated SUVs in order to stay competitive. The higher end models may showcase their trademark designs, but increasingly it is the low end, mainstream cars and SUVs that keep luxury automakers alive.

The same goes for Apple: the G5 and Cinema Displays may showcase the best of Apple's design, but down the road low end computers and laptops like the mini and iBook will be Apple's cash cows.

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by jcadam

Well, it is easier to make strategic decisions that result in short-term loss if you don't have shareholders to answer to.

Exactly, shareholders only care about what is happening in the immediate future, and if Apple gets backed into a corner with the Macintel, then going private would be the best way for Apple to take the necessary risks and get back on its feet.

[jcadam]

Originally Posted by Spliff

I think that number is more like 15%.

I just don't want OS X running on ugly machines. It's like seeing a obese, scabby man of 73 dating a hot young model. Aesthetically, it's a crime worthy of the death penalty.

Or it's like putting the engine from a Porsche 911 Turbo into a rusted out junker like an AMC Pacer. It shouldn't be allowed to happen.

It's a violation. It's dirty. It's rape. It's plain WRONG!

Argghh! I can't handle the thought of OS X running on an ugly PC box.

Gawd, where's my valium? Must have valium now.

consider me one of the geeks who will put in the effort to make it work. This coming from the guy who saved money on his first mac by buying a Yosemite G3 board from eBay and used power tools to get the board to physically fit in a bog-standard PC case and a soldering iron to wire up the power and reset buttons. Slapped in a 550Mhz G3 chip from OWC during one of their big sales. Got a steal on a mac radeon card from ebay also. Cannabilized another PC for the memory and drives Still have the Frankenmac in the closet, still works

[budster101]

I know who I'm calling when I want to build a monster PC/OS X Box....

(Saved)

[Athens]

Originally Posted by goMac

If people decide to start running Mac OS X, what is preventing them from buying Apple hardware?

Apple will have no choice but to sell OS X on its own, and there will always be mac ppl buying Macs and people that like style and quality.

[baw]

http://www.360hacker.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1108

[Hash]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

You like this development? Please explain to me how it won't kill Apple's hardware business, assuming the hacking trend continues as it has.

We all know there are premium priced quality PC hardware like IBM thinkpads, Sony Vaio and so on (in Japan now Panasonic T4 is hot for example), and they are not cheap by any means. I remember my first Vaio back few years ago costed almost 3000 bucks.

Now imagine premium quality PC hardware (designed by Apple) running OS X. Enough said.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Hash

We all know there are premium priced quality PC hardware like IBM thinkpads, Sony Vaio and so on (in Japan now Panasonic T4 is hot for example), and they are not cheap by any means. I remember my first Vaio back few years ago costed almost 3000 bucks.

Now imagine premium quality PC hardware (designed by Apple) running OS X. Enough said.

But you still have not answered my question. You want to run OS X on premium PC hardware, correct? Well, premium PC hardware is Apple's lifeblood. So, again, how does allowing OS X to run on PC hardware not imperil Apple's future?

[Hash]

Consider the fact that premium Sony's run Windows same as Dell and they still sell. Welcome to world of brand (and quality) differentiation. Now, only hacked OS X can run on Dells and its quite difficult. Ordinary folks who even don't know what iso is, won't be able to find and run hacked OS. Even now they dont run Linux, so what makes you think they will run hacked OS X. Instead they can have both premium Apple hardware with tailored OS X and full support. Support is now the key to modern computing. No support+hacking=only for geeks.

[The Godfather]

What's going to stop the OSX hackers from installing a back door in your computer and get all your personal information, including credit card numbers?

[starman]

Even if they got it to work on a generic Intel box, there's the whole DRIVER issue.

Mike

[Athens]

Originally Posted by starman

Even if they got it to work on a generic Intel box, there's the whole DRIVER issue.

Mike

and like in the linux community free lance programmers will fill this need.

[tooki]

Again, it is HIGHLY unlikely that Apple's boxes will simply be stock Intel designs. More likely they will use custom chipsets, a modern boot ROM, etc etc etc. By the time all is said and done, it will be either impossible or prohibitively impractical for users to run OS X on a vanilla PC.

As for back doors: that's an OS issue, not a CPU problem. It will be no easier then than it is now.

tooki

[typoon]

I think Apple will still sell harware for a long time to come. Most people buy a computer and they want the whole experience. Most general users don't want to build their own machines. Most have no clue how to. Even tnough I know how to build my own PC I'd still buy a Mac because I like simplicity of not having to mess with things even though I like to tinker.

I know quite a few people who might install OS X on a regular PC box because they are curious.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally Posted by effgee

I'd almost be willing to bet money that someone at Apple would actually consider a certain, "healthy" level of piracy to be a very effective "grass roots marketing campaign"

Just my 2/100th of a buck.

I think you're 100% right.

Even if the piracy numbers got really large (which I doubt), that's be a "problem" Apple would dearly love to have to find a solution for.

"Oh, darn. Millions of Vista-haters are learning to use soldering irons in a desperate attempt to run our OS. Whatever shall we do about it?"

[Salty]

Apple isn't gona ditch the desktop or laptop markets. There's too much money to be made. Plain and simple, they're not going to suddenly gain tons of market share by having Dell sell OS X. People would still probably sooner get windows cause they wouldn't know how great OS X was. It'd be a marketing fiasco ending in Apple's death.
If Apple ever did license the OS which I doubt, it'd probably be to Sony, maybe Toshiba, maybe Lenovo, but I wouldn't expect to see a Gateway, Dell, or Acer Mac...