[Kerrigan]

What is the world's oldest religion that is still practiced today? I'm not so much interested in pagan religions that are revived from time to time by westerners, but rather in proper religions that have been continually practiced up to the modern day.

I am guessing that perhaps it is Judaism or Zoroastrianism but I don't know much about the topic.

[budster101]

Go with the one with the shortest name.

[Kevin]

No one knows what the oldest religion is for a fact.

[Don Pickett]

Well, since all of the modern religions derive from the "pagan" religions you mention, an argument can be made that something like Christianity is a natural extension of older religions – sometimes the boundaries can blur.

The oldest continually practiced religion is probably Hinduism, which is somewhere around 4,000 years old.

[Randman]

Probably sun worship.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by Randman

Probably sun worship.

Before sun worship there was worship of the Mother Goddess, symbolized by the moon and/or the bull – a bull's horns look like a crescent moon. As the moon controls tides and, by extension, fertility, the moon was thought to be more powerful than the sun. They were often worshipped in tandem, as mates.

[budster101]

Wasn't the moon first placed on the same level of worship at stonehenge? The priests would wait for the certain time of the year when the harvest was over and in order to both stay in power, they used the movements of the planets to line up with stonehenge's one key opening (Sun and Moon). They then sacrificed a lamb to remind themselves of the time when they weren't farmers but hunters in order to regain that feeling.. and pride.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by budster101

Wasn't the moon first placed on the same level of worship at stonehenge? The priests would wait for the certain time of the year when the harvest was over and in order to both stay in power, they used the movements of the planets to line up with stonehenge's one key opening (Sun and Moon). They then sacrificed a lamb to remind themselves of the time when they weren't farmers but hunters in order to regain that feeling.. and pride.

Truth is, no one knows what Stonehenge was for or what went on there. It's all speculation.

[Chuckit]

The one I've heard most often (well, at least that I'm inclined to believe) is Hinduism.

[Warung]

Zoroastrianism is most likely the oldest continually practised religion.

Judaism got almost all of it's ideas from that religion.

[Edit] Truth be told though, there are still quite a few "tribal" people that practise various "nature" oriented religions which probably pre-date Zoroastrianism by a few thousand years.

[ASIMO]

Hypocrisy.

Or some form of satanism.

[jonasmac]

It's Judaism, if you believe the Bible story of Adam and Eve. Belief in Jehovah started with the first people on earth and carried through the generations till today, taking on many forms.

But then I'm no expert on world religions.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Warung

Zoroastrianism is most likely the oldest continually practised religion.

Judaism got almost all of it's ideas from that religion.

Actually since we don't know when the worship God of Abraham was started, or it's ideas being passed, we really can't set a date or say who was copying who.

I've actually heard the opposite.

Which goes to show facts are dependent on who you ask.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by jonasmac

It's Judaism, if you believe the Bible story of Adam and Eve. Belief in Jehovah started with the first people on earth and carried through the generations till today, taking on many forms.

But then I'm no expert on world religions.

No one really knows when Judaism started. Or even the belief of the same God Abraham worshipped.

It had to be passed down from somewhere.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by Warung

Zoroastrianism is most likely the oldest continually practised religion.

Hinduism is older than Zoroastrianism.

Judaism got almost all of it's ideas from that religion.

It's more accurate to say that Zoroastrianism, the monotheism of Ahkenaton and Judaism are developments of similar ideas occurring in the same general area.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by Kevin

No one really knows when Judaism started. Or even the belief of the same God Abraham worshipped.

It had to be passed down from somewhere.

I think you can say that Judaism as we would understand it developed in the hundred years before and after the Bablyonian exile. You're right about Abraham's God – there are three gods mentioned in the first five books of the Old Testament, and the first is El, the Cannannite high god.

[budster101]

I was just reading that Hinduism was around 1000 years before Judaism.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by budster101

I was just reading that Hinduism was around 1000 years before Judaism.

Well Judaism started with Abraham.

But the belief in the God that Abraham worshiped is a much much older belief.

One that has never been dated.

But Abraham was the first "Jew"

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Kevin

No one really knows when Judaism started. Or even the belief of the same God Abraham worshipped.

It had to be passed down from somewhere.

Says who? Do you believe all religions can be traced back infinitely?

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Well Judaism started with Abraham.

But the belief in the God that Abraham worshiped is a much much older belief.

One that has never been dated.

But Abraham was the first "Jew"

There is no proof Abraham ever existed: most datings of the first migration place it around 1,800 BCE. which would make it one of the two mass migrations of the ecumene before 1,000 BCE. It is possible that a group of people who are personified as Abraham moved from present-day Turkey down into the present-day Mid East, but it is also likely that the story of Abraham is a story based on old memories which were passed down among several nomadic tribles in the area, of which the people who became the Israelites were only one. Judaism didn't become solidly monotheistic until the Bablyonian exile – as late as 800 BCE it was common for the people of both Judah and Israel to worship Asherah alongside Yahweh, even seeing her as his wife. To claim that the belief in the God worshipped by Abraham is a much older belief is a statement made without any facts to back it up: the first recognizable monotheistic religion was that of Akhenaten, around 1,400 BCE.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Says who? Do you believe all religions can be traced back infinitely?

Thats a possibility..... i dont think religions have a definite begining and end. They evolve in my opinion. i mean consider this.... Jewdaism -> Catholicism -> Christianity. Its the same God. The first half of 'the book' is the same.

But my best guess would be Zoroastrianism.

[Warung]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

Hinduism is older than Zoroastrianism.

Yep, it appears you're right there. I had no idea Hinduism was that old.

From Wikipedia:

The exact date of Hinduism's origin is not known, though estimates vary from 3102 BCE to 1300 BCE. It is generally regarded as the world's oldest major religion.

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

It's more accurate to say that Zoroastrianism, the monotheism of Ahkenaton and Judaism are developments of similar ideas occurring in the same general area.

Interesting take. I have read accounts that the Jews, while in Babilonian exile (capitivity), took on many of the beliefs of their captors. I must admit though, that I really haven't studied this aspect of religion a lot.

[jonasmac]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

There is no proof Abraham ever existed: most datings of the first migration place it around 1,800 BCE. which would make it one of the two mass migrations of the ecumene before 1,000 BCE. It is possible that a group of people who are personified as Abraham moved from present-day Turkey down into the present-day Mid East, but it is also likely that the story of Abraham is a story based on old memories which were passed down among several nomadic tribles in the area, of which the people who became the Israelites were only one. Judaism didn't become solidly monotheistic until the Bablyonian exile – as late as 800 BCE it was common for the people of both Judah and Israel to worship Asherah alongside Yahweh, even seeing her as his wife. To claim that the belief in the God worshipped by Abraham is a much older belief is a statement made without any facts to back it up: the first recognizable monotheistic religion was that of Akhenaten, around 1,400 BCE.

Interesting....

Well, the Bible does record that the Jews worshipped gods other than Yahweh, Asherah being one of them. That's why Hezekiah needed to tear down the poles and high places based on obedience to God.

You're right about Abraham's God – there are three gods mentioned in the first five books of the Old Testament, and the first is El, the Cannannite high god.

Who are the other two you are referring to?

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by Warung

Interesting take. I have read accounts that the Jews, while in Babilonian exile (capitivity), took on many of the beliefs of their captors. I must admit though, that I really haven't studied this aspect of religion a lot.

The Jews (or, more historically accurate, the Judeans) were definitely influenced by Zoroastrianism while in exile, but I think that's a somewhat simplistic way to look at it. The Mid East was the cosmopolitan center of the world at that time, and there was a lot of back and forth and trading is ideas amongst all people. Some of the trends which led to the birth of monotheism are simple geography: more and more people moved to urban areas in which they were cut off from their local gods and local practices. As all religions reference the same symbol systems, the process by which those symbol systems were adapted to a universal worship through the belief in a singular God was one in which many people, the Jews included, were involved.

So, it is fair to say that the Jews were influenced by Zoroaster and his followers, just as Christianity and Islam were. However, it is also fair to say that all of those religions were the expression of a larger social movement in which people adapted their universal beliefs for a new, manmade world.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Says who? Do you believe all religions can be traced back infinitely?

No, I don't think religions can be tracked back obviously. There is no set date really.

Take for example, show me when the Christian God as we know it, the God of Abraham was first worshipped.

No one can. It's not recorded.

We may know what the oldest RECORDED religious document is.. but that is about as far as it goes.

[zanyterp]

true, we don't know the date of when the God of Abraham (YWHW, or Yahweh if you prefer) began to be worshipped, but we know it was from the Garden of Eden. The oldest religion is Christianity (seeing that it is what the Jewish religion was leading up to for the ~4000 years before Christ's coming).


The same religion that was originally on Terra after Creation and Garden of Eden is still on the Earth now (though it was not for ~1200-1800 years depending on the date of removal you prefer to use).

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by jonasmac

Interesting...Who are the other two you are referring to?

The first god mentioned is El, the Cannanite high god, in Genesis. You can see his name in place names – Beth-El, House of El – and in the way he introduces himself to Abraham, using the name El Shaddai, "El of the Mountain," and El Elyon, "the most high God," both of which were traditional names for El. It is probably that Abraham's god was El.

The second god is harder to find, and easier to argue against. Evidence for him is found mainly through the fact that God seems to need to introduce himself to Issac and Jacob, implying that the later descendants did not know the god they were meeting. From this one can deduce that Issac and Jacob may have worshipped a god other than El or Yahweh.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by zanyterp

true, we don't know the date of when the God of Abraham (YWHW, or Yahweh if you prefer) began to be worshipped, but we know it was from the Garden of Eden. The oldest religion is Christianity (seeing that it is what the Jewish religion was leading up to for the ~4000 years before Christ's coming).


The same religion that was originally on Terra after Creation and Garden of Eden is still on the Earth now (though it was not for ~1200-1800 years depending on the date of removal you prefer to use).

The earliest historical records for Judaism are circa 750 years before Christ. Hinduism has been around since at least 2,000 years before Christ.

[air]

i think it was some kind of religion based on fertility and harvest.


this is a venus figurine from 200,000-35,000 BCE, as the same with the religion

[budster101]

OMG... I remember that figure from Art History Class.... I think that very photo is in my textbook.

Wild.

[zanyterp]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

The earliest historical records for Judaism are circa 750 years before Christ. Hinduism has been around since at least 2,000 years before Christ.

If you don't include the Bible/Torah in your list, I agree (sort of). Perhaps I misspoke myself: what we know of as Judaism and Christianity began in the Garden of Eden. Was it called "Judaism" or "Christianity"? No, but the principles are the same (and the same religion from that point in the Garden is still here).

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by zanyterp

If you don't include the Bible/Torah in your list, I agree (sort of). Perhaps I misspoke myself: what we know of as Judaism and Christianity began in the Garden of Eden. Was it called "Judaism" or "Christianity"? No, but the principles are the same (and the same religion from that point in the Garden is still here).

If you're using the Garden of Eden to mean an actual place, then you will have to base your argument entirely on faith: there is no historical basis for its existence, and the stories and symbol systems which make up the first five books of the Old Testament are not at all unique to Judaism or Christianity, further undermining any claim of historical precedence. I personally do not believe it existed as an actual place.

If you're using the term metaphorically, then we may agree, as all religions reference the same symbol systems, differing in local expression and historical development.

[zanyterp]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

If you're using the Garden of Eden to mean an actual place, then you will have to base your argument entirely on faith: there is no historical basis for its existence, and the stories and symbol systems which make up the first five books of the Old Testament are not at all unique to Judaism or Christianity, further undermining any claim of historical precedence. I personally do not believe it existed as an actual place.

If you're using the term metaphorically, then we may agree, as all religions reference the same symbol systems, differing in local expression and historical development.

That works. I do mean it as an actual, physical place. I did not mean to imply that the stories and systems from the first five book of the Old Testament were unique to Judaism or Christianity; just that they are true because they are the same across the world. And it all began with the Garden of Eden.

If this means that we disagree, then we disagree.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Kevin

No, I don't think religions can be tracked back obviously. There is no set date really.

Take for example, show me when the Christian God as we know it, the God of Abraham was first worshipped.

No one can. It's not recorded.

We may know what the oldest RECORDED religious document is.. but that is about as far as it goes.

I think I didn't quite say what I meant. I was asking, what makes it so certain that Abraham's god was, as you said, "passed down from somewhere"?

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

The first god mentioned is El, the Cannanite high god, in Genesis. You can see his name in place names – Beth-El, House of El – and in the way he introduces himself to Abraham, using the name El Shaddai, "El of the Mountain," and El Elyon, "the most high God," both of which were traditional names for El. It is probably that Abraham's god was El.

The second god is harder to find, and easier to argue against. Evidence for him is found mainly through the fact that God seems to need to introduce himself to Issac and Jacob, implying that the later descendants did not know the god they were meeting. From this one can deduce that Issac and Jacob may have worshipped a god other than El or Yahweh.

Don, you're no biblical scholar. If you rely on the text of the Hebrew Scriptures - which you appear to be doing - I will let you know that the tetragrammaton is found in Genesis 2, before the formation of Adam. You don't seem to understand much about terms for G-d such as El, Elohim, El Shaddai etc. (El Shaddai means Mighty G-d, not mountain, which is har). Were you aware of the fact that Elohim is also used as a term for judges? As for Asherot and whatever other false gods you wish to mention, much of Israel did stray from the one true G-d and reverted to polytheism. The existence of evidence confirming such false worship may be viewed by some as external validation of the Bible. The prophets repeatedly rebuked Israel to permanently banish its idols, but we were rebellious; we were punished for our rebellion with wars, occupations and exiles. But we were never completely destroyed nor will we ever be (IMNSHO), just as G-d assures us throughout revelation.

And btw, Zoroastrianism is a dualistic faith that holds there is a good god and an evil god. There is no such concept in Judaism. The answer to the original poster's question is that the answer depends largely on whom you ask. People of various faiths will have varying opinions. Scholars of various persuasions and qualifications will have their own opinions. All of which will wildly differ. Many of us can agree that Judaism is the oldest mainstream faith, but others will disagree.

[zanyterp]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Don, you're no biblical scholar. If you rely on the text of the Hebrew Scriptures - which you appear to be doing - I will let you know that the tetragrammaton is found in Genesis 2, before the formation of Adam. You don't seem to understand much about terms for G-d such as El, Elohim, El Shaddai etc. (El Shaddai means Mighty G-d, not mountain, which is har). Were you aware of the fact that Elohim is also used as a term for judges? As for Asherot and whatever other false gods you wish to mention, much of Israel did stray from the one true G-d and reverted to polytheism. The existence of evidence confirming such false worship may be viewed by some as external validation of the Bible. The prophets repeatedly rebuked Israel to permanently banish its idols, but we were rebellious; we were punished for our rebellion with wars, occupations and exiles. But we were never completely destroyed nor will we ever be (IMNSHO), just as G-d assures us throughout revelation.

And btw, Zoroastrianism is a dualistic faith that holds there is a good god and an evil god. There is no such concept in Judaism. The answer to the original poster's question is that the answer depends largely on whom you ask. People of various faiths will have varying opinions. Scholars of various persuasions and qualifications will have their own opinions. All of which will wildly differ. Many of us can agree that Judaism is the oldest mainstream faith, but others will disagree.

And some of that depends on what you call mainstream. There are two, that I'm aware of, that have full claim to have been on the Earth since the beginning of time (or at least since the Garden of Eden....again depending on who you ask).

[Warung]

Originally Posted by zanyterp

And some of that depends on what you call mainstream. There are two, that I'm aware of, that have full claim to have been on the Earth since the beginning of time (or at least since the Garden of Eden....again depending on who you ask).

Right, the defining term here is "mainstream", because MOST religions claim that they've been around since the beginning of "time" (if they even involve the concept of "linear time").

But, of course, these claims are made due to geographical, historical and ethnocentric limitations of knowledge and are based in "faith", NOT scientific study.

[Warung]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

I personally do not believe it existed as an actual place.

Of course it didn't. It's a mythological construct found in a variety of different religions. There are many faiths that don't include that particular "aspect".

[Warung]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Many of us can agree that Judaism is the oldest mainstream faith, but others will disagree.

After having checked several different sources, I have come to the conclusion that Hinduism is the oldest still practised mainstream religion.

I also believe that "vedic" faiths pre-date abrahamic faiths by quite a bit, and that, as Don would put it, these were heavily influenced by the first.

Kind of what Apple is to Microsoft is in terms of innovation.

[Kevin]

War, that simply cannot be verified like the Apple MS comparison.

It's a simple guess.

[Warung]

Originally Posted by Kevin

War, that simply cannot be verified like the Apple MS comparison.

It's a simple guess.

No, it's a hell of a lot more than a "simple guess". Literally hundreds of years of research have gone into this.

The "absolute Truth"? Who knows? - But calling it a "guess" is a slap in the face of probably millions of historians, theologans and religios scholars.

Oh, and the Apple MS remark was pretty much "tongue in cheek".

BTW, feel free to post (scientific!) sources which claim that Abrahamic faiths pre-date Vedic religions.

[Kevin]

Warung it IS a guess. One based on writings we have found.

Unless we have every writing every made, or every word ever passed, it will ALWAYS be a guess.

I no, it's not a slap of the face of millions of historians.

If they are honest, they TOO will tell you it's a guess.

I never understood the need for people to try to inform other people such things are factual when they are not.

It only confuses people, and makes them spread disinformation.

And it's funny because if someone accidentally posts a biblical happenstance as if it was fact, they would get JUMPED all over for doing so.

But stuff like this people take as fact, even when it's obvious it's not.

[Kerrigan]

Don Pickett seems to have it right, after doing a little wiki-reading apparently the major features Judaism and Zoroastrianism both developed during the Babylonian Captivity and it is not clear which one influenced the other.

And apparently Zoroastrianism is a "reform" of Hindu rituals, meaning that Hinduism was around long beforehand.

[Warung]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Warung it IS a guess. One based on writings we have found.

Unless we have every writing every made, or every word ever passed, it will ALWAYS be a guess.

Unbelievabull.

Main Entry: 1guess
Pronunciation: 'ges
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English gessen, probably of Scandinavian origin; akin to Old Norse geta to get, guess -- more at GET
transitive senses
1 : to form an opinion of from little or no evidence
2 : BELIEVE, SUPPOSE <I guess you're right>
3 : to arrive at a correct conclusion about by conjecture, chance, or intuition <guess the answer>

Ad 1: There is A LOT more than just a little or no evidence

Ad 2: Belief =! Conclusions arrived from scietific studies

Ad 3: Scientific study =! conjecture, anything arrived by by "chance" or pure "intuition"

Are you going to start word mincing again?

Scientific conclusions aren't simple "guesses", they are based on sound principles of scientific inquiry and are subject to heavy peer review.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Don Pickett seems to have it right, after doing a little wiki-reading apparently the major features Judaism and Zoroastrianism both developed during the Babylonian Captivity and it is not clear which one influenced the other.

Exactly. Nothing is set in stone.

You might want to have a talk with Warung up there.

IF you can stand him spazzing out all the time.

having evidence also doesn't mean having all evidence. Which would be needed to make factual reports.

We have scads of things here and there. We have made guesses.

That fact that not everyone in the professional field on this agrees proves that.

[red rocket]

It appears to me that the monotheist's demonstrable unwillingness to question the accuracy of his own belief system is rooted in the circumstance that the monotheist system itself appears to exhibit every characteristic of being closed.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Warung

After having checked several different sources, I have come to the conclusion that Hinduism is the oldest still practised mainstream religion.

I also believe that "vedic" faiths pre-date abrahamic faiths by quite a bit, and that, as Don would put it, these were heavily influenced by the first.

Kind of what Apple is to Microsoft is in terms of innovation.

I have to disagree the claim that Hinduism or its antecedent represents the oldest mainstream faith. Again, the answer to the original question is highly dependent on the source you're consulting. I will now defend my view, FWIW. The Rig-Veda is the oldest of the Vedas, its authorship is claimed between 1500-1200, but with a late codification date around 600 BCE. Most sources place the date of Israel's exodus from Egypt and the giving of the Torah to the 13th century, with Jewish sources giving an exact date of 1312 BCE. Based on this dating comparison, I do not share your assessment about the relative ages of the faiths, but if you have other dates please come forward with them. (And yes, for the record, I am aware of the critical scholarly view that dates the Torah much later, and obviously I see no merit in that view.)

In addition, it is important to note that the Exodus did not mark the beginning of Judaism. Moses led a preexisting nation out of Egypt, which, according to the Torah, originated with the patriarch Avraham ha'Ivri (Abraham The Hebrew) who lived around 2000 BCE, according to most sources. Abraham was the founder of Judaism, yet knowledge and worship of the G-d of Judaism goes back to the Garden of Eden if you accept the Genesis narrative. (One should also know that this Hebrew year is 5765; the Hebrew calendar starts from the creation of the world.) As for Zoroaster, early dates place him at 1700 BCE (therefore predated by Abraham), while other schools of thought place him later on - in the cited Rig-Veda era.

That's why I believe what I believe - Judaism is the oldest mainstream faith. I have been tempted to say it is the oldest existing religion, but to say that would ignore animistic religion and possibly other surviving ancient forms of pagan worship that I am not aware of. In any event, I do so hate to contradict the learned, distinguished scholars over at Wikipedia who call Hinduism the oldest faith, but at times it is unfortunately necessary to contradict those sages. (For the reading impaired, I am criticizing Wikipedia here, not Hinduism.)

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by budster101

OMG... I remember that figure from Art History Class.... I think that very photo is in my textbook.

Yeah, no wonder this statue is so famous. They find one statue, and constructed a whole religion around it.

-t

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Don, you're no biblical scholar. If you rely on the text of the Hebrew Scriptures - which you appear to be doing - I will let you know that the tetragrammaton is found in Genesis 2, before the formation of Adam. You don't seem to understand much about terms for G-d such as El, Elohim, El Shaddai etc. (El Shaddai means Mighty G-d, not mountain, which is har). Were you aware of the fact that Elohim is also used as a term for judges? As for Asherot and whatever other false gods you wish to mention, much of Israel did stray from the one true G-d and reverted to polytheism. The existence of evidence confirming such false worship may be viewed by some as external validation of the Bible. The prophets repeatedly rebuked Israel to permanently banish its idols, but we were rebellious; we were punished for our rebellion with wars, occupations and exiles. But we were never completely destroyed nor will we ever be (IMNSHO), just as G-d assures us throughout revelation.

I never claimed to be a Biblical scholar, just someone who's interested and reads a lot. However, I can find many sources which dispute your translations of El Shaddai, etc., so I do not take your word to be definitive. You also seem to be relying on the Old Testament/Torah as a historical document, which it isn't: it was heavily edited both before and after the Bablyonian exile to reflect the political views of those in power. Genesis is not a coherent document but one which bears the marks of several writers over several hundred years. I see the Old Testament/Torah not as the story of monotheism but as the story of the developement of a monotheism, which took close to a thousand years and was only sealed with the end of the Bablyonian exile.

And btw, Zoroastrianism is a dualistic faith. . .

I see Zoroastrianism as a dualistic faith only in the sense that Gnosticism is a dualistic faith.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

In addition, it is important to note that the Exodus did not mark the beginning of Judaism. Moses led a preexisting nation out of Egypt, which, according to the Torah, originated with the patriarch Avraham ha'Ivri (Abraham The Hebrew) who lived around 2000 BCE, according to most sources. Abraham was the founder of Judaism, yet knowledge and worship of the G-d of Judaism goes back to the Garden of Eden if you accept the Genesis narrative. (One should also know that this Hebrew year is 5765; the Hebrew calendar starts from the creation of the world.) As for Zoroaster, early dates place him at 1700 BCE (therefore predated by Abraham), while other schools of thought place him later on - in the cited Rig-Veda era.

This is only true if you accept the Torah as a historical document. As no archaeological evidence of events in the Torah exists before circa 750 BCE, its claim as a historical document is slim. There is no evidence of the existence of Abraham, Moses, or even David. If one is to take the claims in the Torah as fact, then I believe one must operate from the basis of faith rather than evidence.