[villalobos]

Armstrong was on dope?


cnnsi article

[turtle777]

And gorickey is ManOfSteal !

Uhm, no, wait...

-t

[budster101]

Sour grapes. Nothing to see here. The French, they are bitter like their chocolate... as usual.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by budster101

The French, they are bitter like their chocolate... as usual.

The entire nation?

[budster101]

The French people quoted in the article. Is that better for you?

[Kevin]

From reading the title, I was hoping for something a bit more exciting.

[budster101]

Yeah, like actual proof of something... from 1999.... no less.

[MacNStein]

They'll do anything to tarnish his image, try and bring him down to their level.

[- - e r i k - -]

Everyone knows that everyone in TdF is on some kind of doping. Not doing so cause them to be at a serious disadvantage

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by budster101

The French people quoted in the article. Is that better for you?

Much better. Thanks.

[budster101]

Happy to oblige. I'd hate to have teh entire people's of France hate me because of a bike race.....

[MacNStein]

Originally Posted by budster101

Happy to oblige. I'd hate to have teh entire people's of France hate me because of a bike race.....

Yeah, whew, would make me lose sleep too.

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by budster101

Yeah, like actual proof of something... from 1999.... no less.

SO if he wasn't caught at that time that makes it ok?

[Kevin]

If the guy cheated, they should go back in time, and not let him take the stuff, and redo the race.

Only possible solution.

[budster101]

They have to dig back to 1999 to even accuse him of this? He is the most tested man in sports! He's clean, no matter how 'convincing' that 'report' is.

They are showing their true colors and let me say right now, GREEN is a prominent color in that scheme...

[analogika]

Apparently, thawing and re-freezing urine samples over a period of six years causes chemical changes that have not been researched yet.

So it's entirely possible that the indicators for EPO doping found in Armstrong's urine are in fact false alarm caused by the long storage.

This story should not have been leaked, and, while it's not all that improbably true, it's inconclusive enough to be a non-story.

-ch.

[Millennium]

Is this the best they can do?

Seriously; they'll find doping evidence in Armstrong on the day they find WMD in Iraq, and for much the same reason.

[budster101]

You had to bring Iraq into this argument. Amazing fanagilling Millenium. You must have Iraq on the brain lately to do that. Don't worry about my criticism... I do it all the time. (Of course, I'm no moderator)

The fact is, real quick. Iraq had and used WMDs in the past. They had them and were working on more because we found buried mobile laboratories. They were clean however, but why bury them? They were obviously spirited out of the country. Odds are on Syria, the country funding many insurgents and training. Like Iran.

---

Back on topic:

He has never doped in his life. NO BLOOD DOPING. No performance enhancers, unless you count chemotherapy a performance enhancer...

It's a pathetic attempt to smear this man's legacy. They are being cheap and asshole-ish. It's sickening.

[zizban]

He has a hot rocker girlfriend, that's all the advantage he needs.

[rickey939]

Originally Posted by turtle777

And gorickey is ManOfSteal !

Uhm, no, wait...

-t

Wait...then who is rickey939?

[production_coordinator]

Neil Armstrong smokes dope!

Opps... sorry... my bad.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by budster101

You had to bring Iraq into this argument. Amazing fanagilling Millenium. You must have Iraq on the brain lately to do that. Don't worry about my criticism... I do it all the time. (Of course, I'm no moderator)

The fact is, real quick. Iraq had and used WMDs in the past. They had them and were working on more because we found buried mobile laboratories. They were clean however, but why bury them? They were obviously spirited out of the country. Odds are on Syria, the country funding many insurgents and training. Like Iran.

No.

</derail>

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by budster101

You had to bring Iraq into this argument. Amazing fanagilling Millenium. You must have Iraq on the brain lately to do that. Don't worry about my criticism... I do it all the time. (Of course, I'm no moderator)

The fact is, real quick. Iraq had and used WMDs in the past. They had them and were working on more because we found buried mobile laboratories. They were clean however, but why bury them? They were obviously spirited out of the country. Odds are on Syria, the country funding many insurgents and training. Like Iran.

It was not my intent to say that there were never WMDs in Iraq. You've seen my posting history in PoliWar; wouldn't it be out of character for me to say such a thing? I think you're right about the WMD, actually. However, the fact remains that when the inspectors looked, there weren't any; clearly they were gone.

Iraq and Armstrong both got a lot of careful scrutiny, looking for things which, by the time all was said and done, indisputably were not there. I was trying to make a joke. I'm sorry if it didn't come across very well. It was not my intent to bring Iraq into the discussion.

Now, before the thread gets derailed, back to the topic: Armstrong doesn't dope. I would hope the huge battery of tests specifically targeted at him, none of which have come back positive except for this last batch (which was very old and of dubious origin), would provide proof of that. This is someone of exceptional natural ability. He happens to be American. I do not see what the big deal is.

[budster101]

Are you saying this was a derail or not? You were too cryptic with that... </derail> does that equate to:

Millenium /= derail

???

Originally Posted by Millenium

Today, 02:09 PM

Is this the best they can do?

Seriously; they'll find doping evidence in Armstrong on the day they find WMD in Iraq, and for much the same reason.

[The Windozer]

Getting more derailed by the second, it seems...

Anyway, Neil Armstrong is too cool to do dope. Everybody knows that. Right, Budster?

[olePigeon]

budster, go back to stereotyping the French.

[tie]

The WMD were obviously spirited out of the country, there's no other possible logical explanation for why we haven't found them where Rumsfeld knew they were. I actually heard from my next-door neighbor that Armstrong was part of the smuggling ring. Budster, why don't you leak this to the French press, they'll be all over it.

Besides the parallel Millennium draws, a second parallel is the poor press standards in both cases. But some of the French will believe Armstrong doped, no matter what the evidence says, while Bush supporters will eventually be arguing that aliens teleported the WMDs out of Iraq just instants after the invasion began. Common sense and logic out the window.

From the NY Times article:

L'Équipe reproduced both what it said were the results of the laboratory's tests, with sample number, and the forms with the same number and Armstrong's name. To a layman, the laboratory chart was nearly incomprehensible, except for its table of sample numbers. A low number presumably signifying EPO levels could be marked positive in a nearby column while a much higher number could be marked negative.

[budster101]

Neil Armstrong was on dope when he helped fake the "Moon Landing".

---

Ok, back on topic, sorry to add to the derailing.

---

The French take pride in living up to that stereotype thank you very much. Bon Jour.

[Kevin]

If W wouldn't have lied, He would have never had to give a urine sample.

Twice.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Millennium

Is this the best they can do?

Seriously; they'll find doping evidence in Armstrong on the day they find WMD in Iraq, and for much the same reason.

I think they'll find WMDs in Sadam's spare pants long before they find any real evidence Lance was doped. It just wasn't hapening.

His training regimen, his personal geometry (his legs aren't proportioned exactly the way most people's are-all natural, by the way), his drive and the fact that he beat cancer and figures anything else is just details are why he won. Dope? Who needs it. And he WAS tested thoroughly throughout the Tour and at the end. Nothing. He's clean.

[villalobos]

dp.. see below

[ghporter]

That's pretty fatalistic, villalobos. You may as well say "why even try?" And why is it so difficult to believe that Lance is just that good (aside from some naysayers-NOT his competitors!)?

[budster101]

No. I think many professional athletes use drugs of one sort or another to enhance performance.

Baseball - Homerun Kings... They've all done it.
Basketball - Come on, what don't those guys use?
Football - The kitchen sink
Bodybuilding - Anything a vet may use
Track & FIeld - Oh yeah

Many professional bicycle racers, but not Lance Armstrong. He's a freak of nature like some other champions.

[villalobos]

why is that people give some much credit to professional athletes regarding doping? What is it that makes them so credible? Hasn't history showed times and times again that the lure of winning was stronger than the principles.
Finally who here believes there still is a profesionnal sport where athletes do not use performing enhancing drugs (and no, golf does not count)?

I bet everybody heard about the
marathon mouse : it is a ppard monster for those in the know. What could prevent any athletes to take another known ppard agonist (since 516 is not known to the public), regardless of long term effect? Nobody would even be able to know about it since nobody would be looking for it. THAT is the huge issue with doping fighting : the dopers always have the advantage of surprise. That does not mean per se that Armstrong is doping, but the suspicion is huge and it is natural that people try to know about it.

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by ghporter

That's pretty fatalistic, villalobos. You may as well say "why even try?" And why is it so difficult to believe that Lance is just that good (aside from some naysayers-NOT his competitors!)?

Like his fellow american Greg Lemond?

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by budster101

No. I think many professional athletes use drugs of one sort or another to enhance performance.

Baseball - Homerun Kings... They've all done it.
Basketball - Come on, what don't those guys use?
Football - The kitchen sink
Bodybuilding - Anything a vet may use
Track & FIeld - Oh yeah

Many professional bicycle racers, but not Lance Armstrong. He's a freak of nature like some other champions.

b
So what is it about Armstrong? And I think, physically, it takes much more to win the TdF 7 times in a row than to be the Homerun Kings.

[jcadam]

Originally Posted by zizban

He has a hot rocker girlfriend, that's all the advantage he needs.

...and he did leave his 'ordinary' wife and children after he became a 'superstar.'

[Don Pickett]

Why hasn't there been a French TdF winner since Hinault? Can't be because French cycling is in disarray – has to be because everyone dopes! This bit of cognitive dissonance ignores Virenque, who admitted to doping and remained a hero in France. But, hey, he was French!

Doping allegations were made against LeMond and Indurain cause they weren't, ya know, French.

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

Why hasn't there been a French TdF winner since Hinault? Can't be because French cycling is in disarray – has to be because everyone dopes! This bit of cognitive dissonance ignores Virenque, who admitted to doping and remained a hero in France. But, hey, he was French!

Doping allegations were made against LeMond and Indurain cause they weren't, ya know, French.

The guy has actually been ridiculed more than you can imagine. he then played the dumb victim and somehow regained some notoriety. He is no hero in France.

[budster101]

Do some research on why Lance is so good... for instance his VO2 max is only bested by one other athlete who is not even a cyclist. He also does not produce but a fraction of lactic acid when his legs are fatiqued hence his hill climbing is amazing. It's not that hard to understand his physiology and determination are the combonation making him a champion rider. As for his personal life, he may be a bad guy to leave his wife and kids, and I don't know the details, but it's none of my business. If I did know the truth and he was a bad person, he would devalue as a person, but still remain 7 time TdF winner. Can't take that away from him.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by budster101

Baseball - Homerun Kings... They've all done it.
Basketball - Come on, what don't those guys use?
Football - The kitchen sink
Bodybuilding - Anything a vet may use
Track & FIeld - Oh yeah

Fishing - gummi worms

[Artful Dodger]

France is the most critical of anything American. Strong stance for a country that wouldn't even be in existence if it wasn't for the USA. So, indirectly, the Tour de France would not still be in around if it wasn't for the USA's heroic efforts. Lance would ride past the maginot line with more ease than the Germans. However, totally unrelated, some of the hottest women I've ever seen in my life were in the French Riviera.

[kilechki]

Originally Posted by Artful Dodger

France is the most critical of anything American. Strong stance for a country that wouldn't even be in existence if it wasn't for the USA. So, indirectly, the Tour de France would not still be in around if it wasn't for the USA's heroic efforts. Lance would ride past the maginot line with more ease than the Germans. However, totally unrelated, some of the hottest women I've ever seen in my life were in the French Riviera.

Let me guess. There is some unified place on the internet where you can find some genuine idiocy to copy/paste on whatever board where there is something said on french people/France/any word that include "fr".
Or if not, you seriously should try to concentrate very hard during one or two minutes, think of what you're writing and see if it makes any sense.


Back on topic : this is not "the french tried to read Armstrong's pipi 6 years long and finally understood something". This is more : international organizations developed new analyzing methods and one french specialized newspaper achieved to identify Armstrong's samples during the testing of those new products. The result is very clear : Armstrong used EPO at least 6 times in 1999.
Now this is not really a surprise and this will not break Armstrong's fame. It only demonstrates that, like every other TdF runner, Armstrong was doped in 1999 and most probably the years after with products that will be discovered in a few years from now, if ever. Armstrong was just stupid to claim that he was clean although his personnal medic was Michele Ferrari, known as "Doctor Needle" in Italy and several times convinced of doping.
Had Armstrong not insisted so many times on his "innocence" while having every dissident voice among cyclists shut up, he would not have gotten so many enemies among cyclists, journalists and the public.

[Artful Dodger]

Originally Posted by kilechki

Let me guess. There is some unified place on the internet where you can find some genuine idiocy to copy/paste on whatever board where there is something said on french people/France/any word that include "fr".
Or if not, you seriously should try to concentrate very hard during one or two minutes, think of what you're writing and see if it makes any sense.


Back on topic : this is not "the french tried to read Armstrong's pipi 6 years long and finally understood something". This is more : international organizations developed new analyzing methods and one french specialized newspaper achieved to identify Armstrong's samples during the testing of those new products. The result is very clear : Armstrong used EPO at least 6 times in 1999.
Now this is not really a surprise and this will not break Armstrong's fame. It only demonstrates that, like every other TdF runner, Armstrong was doped in 1999 and most probably the years after with products that will be discovered in a few years from now, if ever. Armstrong was just stupid to claim that he was clean although his personnal medic was Michele Ferrari, known as "Doctor Needle" in Italy and several times convinced of doping.
Had Armstrong not insisted so many times on his "innocence" while having every dissident voice among cyclists shut up, he would not have gotten so many enemies among cyclists, journalists and the public.

Surprise you are from Paris. If it wasn't for the US you'd be writing from New Berlin. Why don't you try critiquing my post with actual points, instead of trying to be funny...and failing miserably. I'm using history as an informant, as opposed to my emotions. Perhaps you'd like to speculate what shape France would be in today if D-Day never occured. Don't try to belittle the achievements of America. Truth Hurts.

[kilechki]

What has to do the D-Day in a f**** topic about doping in TdF? Please leave History where it is instead of trying to use it as "an informant"... This is always the same bulls*** that people claiming that US would not exist if France had not sent Lafayette and blablabla. This has nothing to do with history. Armstrong's is not an "american achievement", or maybe only an achievement of its pharmaceutic industry.
The US does not need Armstrong to know that it is an outstanding nation. Do not belittle your country by making unproper comparisons.

[Kevin]

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by villalobos

Like his fellow american Greg Lemond?

Isn't that pretty broadly stereotyping? It's like saying everyone with brown hair uses crack. Totally fatuous.

There are a huge number of American athletes, and the vast majority do not use drugs to enhance their performance. We hear about the few who do because that's how the news media work.

[Artful Dodger]

Yeah, but the French (not all) hate the fact that an American can just stroll into their country and dominate their most prestigious sporting event for 7 straight years. It kills them. You can't deny that. France would like nothing more than to dethrown Lance. I am pointing to broader observation here. The French just hate the US. If Lance was from anywhere other than the US L'equipe would not be targeting him with such fervor. Basically the French won't be content, until a Frenchman wins the tour. Until then, everyone will be accused of some kind of cheating, but if your American you'll get extra special bashing.

What's next for you? Perhaps you'll enlighten me on the efficacy of the Maginot Line. Lance could have ridden past that with greater ease than the Germans. Please spare me a reply I'm sick of reading your dellusional ramblings.

[kilechki]

Cool. My first laughing quaker.

Please spare me a reply

Then don't ask questions.


I'm wondering what's so hard to accept with this story. The french public just loved LeMond. It still does, probably one of the most loved TdF winner in France. Like Indurain, by the way. Oh, you notice? They're not french! So what? They were great cyclists and sportsmen. Armstrong is not, that's all, and that has nothing to do with him being american.


PS : Maginot line... hopefully there will be a thread on this one, it would be totally worth it.

[Artful Dodger]

It was a rhetorical question, one in which the answer is assumed, and thus renders a reply unnecessary. But, I didn't expect you to pick up on that. The French love Lemond more so now then ever before due to the fact that he has spoken against Armstrong, criticizing him for "keeping up a facade" of non drug use. Plus I said dominate. I think LeMond won it 3 times - not consecutively. No major threat to the fragile french ego. Lance has eclipsed this. For the French, Armstrong accomplishment is far too great for them to comprhend, therefore, in their minds, he must be cheating.