[besson3c]

Is technology in schools the future or just a fad?


Great article. Please let me know what you think.

[Kevin]

I think KitKats taste like chocolate goodness.

[budster101]

Yeah, me two. Ah, chocolate. I like the bitter chocolate myself. The daker the better.

[dreilly1]

I think that computers in schools are a fine idea, as long as they don't get in the way of actual teaching. I also think that the computer companies (and Apple is no exception) oversold the value of computers to school districts.

Are they useful? Of course they are. But their use is in automating some of the more mundane aspects of school, like writing reports and organizing research. A student who doesn't know the basics, but who has a computer at his or her disposal, will only succeed in producing bad work faster.

edit: and I think that some posters here are too clever for their own good.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by budster101

Yeah, me two. Ah, chocolate. I like the bitter chocolate myself. The daker the better.

Racist.

[budster101]

HIre people that can teach first, then put the computers in the classroom. It's better if they have the computers at home so they can suppliment the classroom learning process.. I'm rethinking my desire for computers in the classroom.

Teach them: Math, English, Science, etc. first. Then suppliment this and reinforce it at home with the access of the internet and a computer.

[Abit667]

I think they need to stop with all this trying to get the most technology possible stuff in schools. Computers have their place, just like they do in business. In school it's the students that should be using them to how ever they wish to get the work done that's assigned to them.

My school had some stuipd thing where they tried to push those smart board things. Basically a projector screen with a giant touchpad behind it so you could use your finger on it like it was the mouse. The school district spent a ton of money getting these things in almost every class room and forced the teachers to teach using them. Most of the teachers didn't do it and ending up taking the things out of theirs rooms because it was useless and made teaching harder. I didn't want to sit there with some teacher just reading points off a powerpoint slide. School should be tought how it always was. If kids want to use computers to type stuff up, do research, make presentations, etc, then that's fine and good use of technology. Trying to revolutionize teaching with it is a waste of money.

[budster101]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Racist.

What? My saying I like chocolate, bitter and dark makes me racist? Are you nuts?

[dreilly1]

Originally Posted by Abit667

My school had some stuipd thing where they tried to push those smart board things. Basically a projector screen with a giant touchpad behind it so you could use your finger on it like it was the mouse. The school district spent a ton of money getting these things in almost every class room and forced the teachers to teach using them. Most of the teachers didn't do it and ending up taking the things out of theirs rooms because it was useless and made teaching harder.

This is a perfect example. What's wrong a whiteboard and dry-erase markers? Or better yet, a blackboard and chalk? (Every grade-schooler should get to have the experience of clapping erasers outside the school...)

A teacher who can't teach with a blackboard won't be able to teach with a million computers behind him.

[budster101]

Right on!

Spend the money on the teachers and fund other needs in schools to round out students!

Art Programs, Music, Band, Sports!

They drop programs left and right and then buy computes.... wow.

[Millennium]

Computers are good for testing, communication, and research. I think that these uses of technology in the classroom are here to stay. However, computers suck at teaching, and I really hope that this use goes away soon. I'm not holding my breath, though; school-district bureaucracies the world over would just love to mechanize teaching if they could get away with it.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by budster101

What? My saying I like chocolate, bitter and dark makes me racist? Are you nuts?

[budster101]

Kevin, you have a weird sense of humor.... Slap yourself in the forehead.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by budster101

Kevin, you have a weird sense of humor.... Slap yourself in the forehead.

And you apparently have none...

[Link]

Computers are handy, but they really need to not go nuts with it. I doubt it's a fad because, well out here, we've had computers in schools since the 80s. In fact, there's still some schools that actually have rooms with Apple IIes in them I kid you not.

[rickey939]

High school trades textbooks for laptops (CNN)

iBooks none-the-less! This is one of the 1st schools to take the technology to this level and actually not use textbooks.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by rickey939

High school trades textbooks for laptops (CNN)

iBooks none-the-less! This is one of the 1st schools to take the technology to this level and actually not use textbooks.

That's a VERY bad thing IMO. How the heck can you learn something (memorize) from a computer screen ? I know I can't memorize large chunks of material by reading it off a computer screen. I need paper. Computers distract too much.

Computers have their uses but replacing textbooks with computers is a Bad Thing™.

[production_coordinator]

As long as the parents, teachers and administrators understand that technology does not replace good teaching... it only enhances it... technology is a great thing. Just as the pencil, ball point penn, chalkboard, calculator, etc. can all be great tools used in teaching.

It only hurts when the teacher uses it as a crutch.

[Link]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

That's a VERY bad thing IMO. How the heck can you learn something (memorize) from a computer screen ? I know I can't memorize large chunks of material by reading it off a computer screen. I need paper. Computers distract too much.

Computers have their uses but replacing textbooks with computers is a Bad Thing™.

Easy: You don't.

The purpose of learning isn't to memorize a book and regurgitate the information, you're supposed to read it, interpret it, think about it, and well.. yeah, then you'll remember it easily.

I find that when I'm doing book work that has Q&A in the book itself, having the book on the screen helps immensely, not to mention that in most cases digital media is easier to put on more comfortable things. IMHO, they should make an ipod-size device (possibly more ergonomic and with a larger screen) for reading "reading" books on, for this exact reason.

I actually find dealing with a book a real pain in the butt. Not only are most text books impossible to read while sitting at a table but they're too heavy to elevate for easy reading, need proper lighting, and very uncomfortable to sit at a sofa or something and read (especially when you need to take notes at the same time)..

Again, here digital books, ESPECIALLY on a computer with a widescreen display, can make life a lot easier. A laptop screen tilted tends to have the equivalent of a book being elevated, it might not be perfect but it's usually enough, and if you sit in such a way you can elevate the screen even more

So you get easier reading, cheaper material (you don't have to buy the books every year, just the license for X number of students and keep it until the material is outdated), don't have to worry much about outdated material (the outdated stuff STILL is readable but it's just outdated).. and a lot easier to manage (no books to get water damage and one laptop is a lot lighter/smaller than 5 books)..

Yes, abuse will be a problem, and yes it isn't hard to get distracted, but generally with a book you're just as easily distracted. The thing is, these students (just like everyone else) will have to deal with that. Your distractions can be quit on a computer, and the dock can be hidden easily to simulate a "single use environment" -- this is definitely not something I'd enforce in programs, I'd just teach the students and remind them -- not to mention ask those who feel they're too distracted to come ask for advice. After all, there are millions of ways to deal with that!

The thing is, as usual, computers can't substitute good teaching. Good teachers will be able to do their job well with or without laptops, paper, pens, books, or anything else, and that's my two cents

There will be problems, of course -- both in the implementation and the delivery of this, as you already know. Laptops aren't big friends of wear and tear, and of course the maintenance both to the machines themselves and the school networks will have to be well orchestrated -- again I think that the right teaching/attitude can negate that being a problem

As books should be, students have to learn to respect their property -- Of course I'm not going to suggest to give laptops to 1st graders, but if done right, it'll be seen as something respectable and hopefully well treated. We don't let kids stay in school who rip up books and other school property and throw them away, so I'm sure that sorta policy would have to be maintained

[stevesnj]

Well coming from a teacher all I have to say is that computers are needed in school. Most of what is done in the outside world has some type of computer that is used. Myself I like to prepare the students for the outside world and computers are a part of that world. It would be irresponsible not to bring more technology and further its implementation.

Originally Posted by budster101

Right on!

Spend the money on the teachers and fund other needs in schools to round out students!

Art Programs, Music, Band, Sports!

They drop programs left and right and then buy computes.... wow.

LOL!!! Those programs are dropped not for money reasons to purchase computers its to further prep for the slew of tesing required to conform to President Bushs' No Child Left Behind Act (which most teachers in America HATE). Most public schools cannot afford computers because of reducing yearly budgets. Our district has had its budget reduced every year since 2001.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by budster101

Kevin, you have a weird sense of humor.... Slap yourself in the forehead.

At least he has a pretty cool signature. Although, I think out of fairness to us he should add "I do not play the triangle" to his sig.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by stevesnj

Well coming from a teacher all I have to say is that computers are needed in school. Most of what is done in the outside world has some type of computer that is used. Myself I like to prepare the students for the outside world and computers are a part of that world. It would be irresponsible not to bring more technology and further its implementation.

I have a hard time buying the whole "prepare for the outside world" argument. What grade do you teach?

[budster101]

Originally Posted by stevesnj

Well coming from a teacher all I have to say is that computers are needed in school. Most of what is done in the outside world has some type of computer that is used. Myself I like to prepare the students for the outside world and computers are a part of that world. It would be irresponsible not to bring more technology and further its implementation.

I said, IN SCHOOL. They can work on the computer at home in addition to their in school curriculum. It would be irresponsible to rely on technology for your teaching. They can learn to use a computer at home, as most of them do anyway. They can take "computer courses" in high school or camp.

LOL!!! Those programs are dropped not for money reasons to purchase computers its to further prep for the slew of tesing required to conform to President Bushs' No Child Left Behind Act (which most teachers in America HATE). Most public schools cannot afford computers because of reducing yearly budgets. Our district has had its budget reduced every year since 2001.

Nonsense. Those programs are and have been dropped before the 'No Child Beft Behind Act'.
Which by the way is going to be finished. I have a few friends and family members who also do not like the NCLBA. I don't blame them. The yearly budgets being reduced also has nothing to do with the NCLBA. Actually your district has had a smaller increase in it's budget, not a decrease, as that is not possible.

Tell you what. Maybe if the overpaid people in your and other districts would actually make a difference and earn that pay, the system would work. The Administration of most, no all public school districts are failing miserably. There are great teachers and there are bad teachers, it's just too bad the bad teachers often have tenure and cannot be gotten rid of... to make room for younger and brighter teachers. Blame yourselves for that. Take a stand instead of assigning blame where it is not even worthy. I'm no big fan of the NCLBA but the core of the problem lies with bad teachers, and a bloated and wasteful Board of Education.

Some hard decisions should be made, but unfortunately they won't be because of the stakeholders involved. Don't even get me started on parents sherking their responsibilities back onto the teachers. It's not a babysitting service after all.

So, you think computers will fix the real problems with education and are willing to make the NCLBA the scapegoat for the real issues eh? I don't think so.

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I have a hard time buying the whole "prepare for the outside world" argument. What grade do you teach?

So what should we just do with kids? Just make sure they pass tests? If your a parent you may or may not want to beleive that I (and other teachers) do actually want to prepare them for life after High School. I think it's one of the many reasons I teach.

I teach 9-12 Special Ed students (Paraprofessional Teacher)

[moonmonkey]

Originally Posted by budster101

What? My saying I like chocolate, bitter and dark makes me racist? Are you nuts?

Sexist.

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by budster101

Nonsense. Those programs are and have been dropped before the 'No Child Beft Behind Act'.
Which by the way is going to be finished. I have a few friends and family members who also do not like the NCLBA. I don't blame them. The yearly budgets being reduced also has nothing to do with the NCLBA. Actually your district has had a smaller increase in it's budget, not a decrease, as that is not possible.

Tell you what. Maybe if the overpaid people in your and other districts would actually make a difference and earn that pay, the system would work. The Administration of most, no all public school districts are failing miserably. There are great teachers and there are bad teachers, it's just too bad the bad teachers often have tenure and cannot be gotten rid of... to make room for younger and brighter teachers. Blame yourselves for that. Take a stand instead of assigning blame where it is not even worthy. I'm no big fan of the NCLBA but the core of the problem lies with bad teachers, and a bloated and wasteful Board of Education.

Some hard decisions should be made, but unfortunately they won't be because of the stakeholders involved. Don't even get me started on parents sherking their responsibilities back onto the teachers. It's not a babysitting service after all.

So, you think computers will fix the real problems with education and are willing to make the NCLBA the scapegoat for the real issues eh? I don't think so.

Wow if you think programs are not cut for NCLB your wrong and have no idea what this program has done to poor and more well off districts.


As for pay full time teachers in my district start at 17,500 a year and at top of the scale with all their degree's get a whopping 37,800 a year. So If you don't think we earn our pay your wrong again.


If you think some of the newer teachers are brighter than the tenure teachers you need some serious reality checks.

You said we should blame ourselves for failing students...HA!! Parents only come to school to complain about their failing student when they are failing...never to be seen any other time in the school year like after school help and teacher confreances which most parents never even bother to show up at. Teachers are not 100% reponsible for the education of the student the parents hold responsibility too.

As for the babysitter comment...some of our students start fresman year with the worst manners ever and leave more mature and stronger. This should be a parents responsibility but since I care about the health and well being of YOUR kid I will take that responsibility off the parents hands because they/you sure dont do it.

[budster101]

YES. It would be nice if they could pass tests, it shows you are actually TEACHING them.

Your job is to teach them how to read, write, understand science, and math. You are not going to prepare them for the outside world as that has it's own tests. If they can read, write, add, and speak relatively well, then life will present them with more reward than kicks to the teeth. Teach them to LEARN. I don't know where you thought it was the responsibility of the teacher to do anything more when you (impersonal plural) can't even teach them to pass a basic skills test. You know who's job it is to prepare them for the real world? I'll give you a multiple choice on that one.

a.) The Teacher
b.) The Daycare Center personel
c.) The Parent(s)
d.) The Computer / Television


Clue: C is the most commonly correct answer.

-Budster101
M.Ed. Instructional Systems Design

[budster101]

Originally Posted by moonmonkey

Sexist.

laughinated.

[budster101]

Originally Posted by stevesnj

Wow if you think programs are not cut for NCLB your wrong and have no idea what this program has done to poor and more well off districts.

READ MUCH? That isn't want I stated at all.

As for pay full time teachers in my district start at 17,500 a year and at top of the scale with all their degree's get a whopping 37,800 a year. So If you don't think we earn our pay your wrong again.

I said, you were NOT PAID ENOUGH. The good ones anyway. Get rid of the BAD OLD teachers and make room for good younger people.

If you think some of the newer teachers are brighter than the tenure teachers you need some serious reality checks.

Not really. I think many older teachers are not worth keeping as they SUCK and always have. We need to GRADE our teachers. If the younger people fail, then they are out too. I'm not biased against older teadchers, but many tenured do in fact NOTHING. They are part of the problem facing teachers who do a good job, and students who are not learning. I can see you are part of the problem because you can't face the facts.... something the real world does not allow... and you want to prepare students for the real world? Get out in it for a while and let's see how you do. It is a fact that many newer teachers are coming from a life in the real world and a later age with REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE. For someone that proclaims technology is the answer, you sure don't seem very cutting edge.

You said we should blame ourselves for failing students...HA!! Parents only come to school to complain about their failing student when they are failing...never to be seen any other time in the school year like after school help and teacher confreances which most parents never even bother to show up at. Teachers are not 100% reponsible for the education of the student the parents hold responsibility too.

As for the babysitter comment...some of our students start fresman year with the worst manners ever and leave more mature and stronger. This should be a parents responsibility but since I care about the health and well being of YOUR kid I will take that responsibility off the parents hands because they/you sure dont do it.

I know that! Parents are a big part of the problem as well. You are not a daycare worker!!! You are there to teach and they are there to support their children. The best students are those who have parents that are involved in their education. I never said you were responsible for 100 percent.... show me!

I said you should be teaching READING, WRITING, MATH, SCIENCE. Their parents prepare them for the real world, not you. Give them the tools and they will pass life's tests. BTW: Sports help as well! Setting goals, and having a fit body to go with the mind makes a great combonation when entering the real world where a 60 hour work week is commonplace.

The only people I have the highest respect for are great teachers. They are a gift to be treasured by all, and the bad teachers should be fired and room/finances made for the truly talented and driven teachers. You deserve to earn a good living. Too many great teachers have to work other jobs to suppliment income. Don't think I dont' know that! What does a principle earn? 80k 100k? What about other Administrators? WTF do they do?

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by budster101

YES. It would be nice if they could pass tests, it shows you are actually TEACHING them.

Your job is to teach them how to read, write, understand science, and math. You are not going to prepare them for the outside world as that has it's own tests. If they can read, write, add, and speak relatively well, then life will present them with more reward than kicks to the teeth. Teach them to LEARN. I don't know where you thought it was the responsibility of the teacher to do anything more when you (impersonal plural) can't even teach them to pass a basic skills test. You know who's job it is to prepare them for the real world? I'll give you a multiple choice on that one.

a.) The Teacher
b.) The Daycare Center personel
c.) The Parent(s)
d.) The Computer / Television


Clue: C is the most commonly correct answer.

-Budster101
M.Ed. Instructional Systems Design

NO we cannot prepare them for EVERYTHING in the outside world your right. Teachers and Parents cannot do that either...noboby can. We do provide them with reading, writing, and math skills. I know what what im doing please stop patronizing what I know I do. The ultimate resposibility is up to the STUDENT to comprehend what teachers teach them. Teachers cannot force them and a failing student is not because of a bad teacher, all teachers on the planet would then be a bad teacher. Even the best teachers have a failing student. STUDENTS are responsible for themselves. But it seems you will blame teachers anyway. Sorry you don't understand what teachers can and cannot do. Tests are tools to understand their level of comprehension of the subject tought to them. If they cannot pass a test they need to be responsible and ask for extra help and teachers will provide it. Or we will have a confrence with them to understand their areas of weakness. Teachers are not the bad people here...we care. You seem to be a software designer for educational software is this correct?

I did misread your post on the 2 points above...my bad...its late and Im protecting my territory.

I have been teaching 8 years now and love what I do. Technology should be brought into the class. I was teaching Automotive sytems last year and the computers are too old to run the Snap On program needed and run in many Auto shops in the Auto dealeships and private shops and parts houses in the country. Now those Seniors went 4 years and some could not even get to use that program. What a shame. Just 5 computers were needed but no money to buy them. How can we teach without the money to buy the tools needed? So sad

[budster101]

Actually, I design e-learning systems and should be taking the techy-only side, but I'm also a traditionalist who thinks that the basics should be mastered before they can even consider e-learning or leaning on technology to be in the classroom too much. I'd like to see the system be streamlined and fixed. All the stakeholders involved must bear their part of the resonsibility. Parents, Teachers, Students, Administrators, Government, and Industry!

When the internet speeds catch up, there are amazing things that can help students gain wonderous expereinces such as live conferences with NASA, and other institutions and artistic organizations. Museums etc. The value there is immense, but I forsee this being more important at a later time in the future.

Honestly, I'm a freelance designer who has another day job, seeking out an opportunity to put into practice all that I have learned. I've got some ideas, and a load of energy, it's just been hell finding that first job... All I can seemingly do right now is stay in tune with what is going on and vicariously through my friends and relatives who are teachers.

[macroy]

Originally Posted by budster101

YES. It would be nice if they could pass tests, it shows you are actually TEACHING them.

uh... wrong (or I disagree, actually). And that's the issue with many of these programs including no child left behind. They are using standardized tests to asses both kids, teachers, and schools. As a result, the administration puts pressure on the schools to make sure the kids pass these tests. That pressure then filters down to the teachers to the point where they are simply teaching the tests... rather than the basic fundementals you mentioned.

Originally Posted by budster101

Your job is to teach them how to read, write, understand science, and math. You are not going to prepare them for the outside world as that has it's own tests. If they can read, write, add, and speak relatively well, then life will present them with more reward than kicks to the teeth. Teach them to LEARN. I don't know where you thought it was the responsibility of the teacher to do anything more when you (impersonal plural) can't even teach them to pass a basic skills test. You know who's job it is to prepare them for the real world? I'll give you a multiple choice on that one.

a.) The Teacher
b.) The Daycare Center personel
c.) The Parent(s)
d.) The Computer / Television

Clue: C is the most commonly correct answer.
-Budster101
M.Ed. Instructional Systems Design

I would say its both A and C. While the main liability is on the parent, I don't see how a teacher can simply focus on the "three R's" and nothing else. Based on your comment, a teacher is doing his/her job if Johnny is passing his achievement tests even though he's bullying other kids and doing drugs at school (yea, I know it an extreme example).

"teaching" is to empower the students to expand and learn.... more than just the subjects.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by stevesnj

So what should we just do with kids? Just make sure they pass tests? If your a parent you may or may not want to beleive that I (and other teachers) do actually want to prepare them for life after High School. I think it's one of the many reasons I teach.

I teach 9-12 Special Ed students (Paraprofessional Teacher)

your = belonging to you
you're = you are (you meant to use this)

Academia has never been about simply preparing students to survive outside of school, but of teaching them to learn how to learn. Vocational schools are for preparing students for jobs.

If schools were really about preparing for jobs and life, students probably have enough Math to last them a lifetime around 9th grade. What about parenting courses? Making economics/doing taxes/understanding interest rates/mortages courses? Operating a computer courses? Wouldn't these prepare students for jobs/life?

You teach a student critical thinking skills successfully, the world is their oyster. Computers are such a moving target anyway, whatever they learn today in a superficial way will likely be useless knowledge once they have left school.

My opinion...

[Railroader]

Computers are the next pencil. Computers can be the textbook, test, and pencil all in one. It all has to do with the software written for the student.

Originally Posted by besson3c

At least he has a pretty cool signature. Although, I think out of fairness to us he should add "I do not play the triangle" to his sig.

GIVE IT A REST!!! You look petty beating this EXTREMELY dead horse.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Computers are the next pencil. Computers can be the textbook, test, and pencil all in one. It all has to do with the software written for the student.

Yes, computers are a great tool, but too much attention is spent teaching how to learn the tool than to use the tool to solve problems.

GIVE IT A REST!!! You look petty beating this EXTREMELY dead horse.

Beating a dead horse would be agonizing over some detail or issue which has been resolved. What I'm doing is being a dumbass by recycling the same joke... kind of like our friend the Ha Ha guy. There's a difference.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Yes, computers are a great tool, but too much attention is spent teaching how to learn the tool than to use the tool to solve problems.

That's because we currently wait until the child is in 6th grade before exposing them on a daily basis to them. It would be the same way if we did that with pencils. Exposure early is tantamount to not having to "teach" usage later in their educations.

Beating a dead horse would be agonizing over some detail or issue which has been resolved. What I'm doing is being a dumbass by recycling the same joke... kind of like our friend the Ha Ha guy. There's a difference.[/QUOTE]

No, the Ha! Ha! guy is used effectively sometimes.

So, you're saying that Kevin and you have come to an agreement as per your constant comments about his signature? Ok, I'll drop it if that's the case.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Railroader

That's because we currently wait until the child is in 6th grade before exposing them on a daily basis to them. It would be the same way if we did that with pencils. Exposure early is tantamount to not having to "teach" usage later in their educations.

I don't buy this. Operating a computer is infinitely more complex than handling a pencil. Simply exposing them to computers is not going to make them better problem solvers in any way. Teaching them problem solving will make them better problem solvers, and if you want to slip in computers as a tool used to solve a problem, fine. Are students capable of handling sophisticated problems that may involve using a computer before 6th grade? I don't know.

No, the Ha! Ha! guy is used effectively sometimes.

So, you're saying that Kevin and you have come to an agreement as per your constant comments about his signature? Ok, I'll drop it if that's the case.

How can I use my triangle joke more effectively? Timing? Maybe I'll just have to wait for a conversation about triangles or other percussion instruments? Or about signatures?

I don't know what Kevin and I have, but clearly this is a simple and completely harmless joke. Do you think I'm trying to be malicious about my ridiculous assertion?

[budster101]

never mind.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I don't buy this. Operating a computer is infinitely more complex than handling a pencil. Simply exposing them to computers is not going to make them better problem solvers in any way. Teaching them problem solving will make them better problem solvers, and if you want to slip in computers as a tool used to solve a problem, fine. Are students capable of handling sophisticated problems that may involve using a computer before 6th grade? I don't know.

A computer may be more complex than a pencil, but it certainly isn't "infinitely" more so. Everyone has to be taught how to use a pencil. Ask any kindergarten teacher (I am married to one, I know) how many of her students know how to even hold a pencil upon entering kindergarten. Very few. The earlier a student is taught how to use a computer to solve their problems the easier it is for them in the future. And the problems don't have to be "sophisticated". They can be simple file movement and reading/writing assignments.

Originally Posted by besson3c

How can I use my triangle joke more effectively? Timing? Maybe I'll just have to wait for a conversation about triangles or other percussion instruments? Or about signatures?

I don't know what Kevin and I have, but clearly this is a simple and completely harmless joke. Do you think I'm trying to be malicious about my ridiculous assertion?

I think you are being lame. And, you and Kevin don't agree about your constant comments about his signature? But then you did create that lame "pratical joke" and video tape the victim suffereing through it. He did not look amused either. Did you even get his permission to post the video?

[Kevin]

I don't care what he says about my triangles.

Besides, I was derailing his thread. I can take a bit of abuse now and then.

Though I am in the process of laminating his fanboy card.

[dreilly1]

Originally Posted by Railroader

A computer may be more complex than a pencil, but it certainly isn't "infinitely" more so. Everyone has to be taught how to use a pencil. Ask any kindergarten teacher (I am married to one, I know) how many of her students know how to even hold a pencil upon entering kindergarten. Very few. The earlier a student is taught how to use a computer to solve their problems the easier it is for them in the future. And the problems don't have to be "sophisticated". They can be simple file movement and reading/writing assignments.

There's a little bit of a difference, though. My family first bought a computer when I was around six or seven, which was probably right around the time I was learning to use a pencil.

The basic process of using a stylus to write hasn't really changed much in the last few centuries. The odds are pretty good that learning to use a pencil in Kindergarten would still be a useful skill today.

But my exposure as a young sprout to that TRS-80 Model 1 computer, with a whopping 4K of memory and a tape drive, is quite a bit less useful today. The interfaces and uses for computers change on a daily basis. Teaching a young person how to use a computer (like, simple file movement commands) will bring very little benefit, because they'll have to re-learn all the interfaces by the time they start working for a living anyway. Instead, teach them how to solve problems without assistance, and then use whatever technology they have available to get to the answer faster.

One of the best math classes I ever had was a unit where we put away the calculators and learned how to use a slide rule. Slide rules are wonderful things, you need to know some things about math, geometry, and significant figures to use them effectively. My talent using the slide rule is worth precisely zero in my current job, but the concepts that I had to learn to use it are still relevant.

[Railroader]

And my talents using a pencil mean squat on my job. But I better be versed in Win 2000/NT/98/XP. Max OS 9/10, IBM O/S 2, UNIX, FORTRAN, and LINUX.

I too learned on a TRS-80. And an IBM PET, and numerous other systems including NeXt, Sun Sparc and many others. And I am VERY glad I did. It helps me adapt and use the newer systems that will be coming out. That's why I say we should be teaching children to use computers, we should be expecting them to learn using computers.

[budster101]

Teach children the art of human interaction before they even touch a keyboard.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Railroader

I think you are being lame. And, you and Kevin don't agree about your constant comments about his signature? But then you did create that lame "pratical joke" and video tape the victim suffereing through it. He did not look amused either. Did you even get his permission to post the video?

Yes, he thought the whole prank was hilarious... he may have come across as a little stunned or tired in the video, but he wasn't put off by it. Can you not hear him laughing?

At any rate, my sense of humor is not on trial here. If you don't appreciate my humor, just ignore my posts. It's as simple as that.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Though I am in the process of laminating his fanboy card.

Laminate me baby! I want to be stiff and sturdy for you.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Railroader

A computer may be more complex than a pencil, but it certainly isn't "infinitely" more so. Everyone has to be taught how to use a pencil. Ask any kindergarten teacher (I am married to one, I know) how many of her students know how to even hold a pencil upon entering kindergarten. Very few. The earlier a student is taught how to use a computer to solve their problems the easier it is for them in the future. And the problems don't have to be "sophisticated". They can be simple file movement and reading/writing assignments.

The Desktop metaphor may not be a permanent fixture within computers, and input devices and the way we interact with computers are also moving targets.

Perhaps I'm just not understanding you though... how is file movement and/or writing an assignment on the computer solving a problem?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by budster101

Teach children the art of human interaction before they even touch a keyboard.

What do you mean by this? Don't let the kid play games before they develop social skills?

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by besson3c

What do you mean by this? Don't let the kid play games before they develop social skills?

Not at all, but make sure the kid masters the concrete reality of face-to-face interaction with people before getting into the abstractions of online play.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Railroader

And my talents using a pencil mean squat on my job. But I better be versed in Win 2000/NT/98/XP. Max OS 9/10, IBM O/S 2, UNIX, FORTRAN, and LINUX.

I too learned on a TRS-80. And an IBM PET, and numerous other systems including NeXt, Sun Sparc and many others. And I am VERY glad I did. It helps me adapt and use the newer systems that will be coming out. That's why I say we should be teaching children to use computers, we should be expecting them to learn using computers.

Kids should be taught to walk before they are taught to run. We do not expect our children to solve differential equations before they've learned how to multiply, so why should we teach them only how to have the work done for them, when they should first know what it means to do the work?

Why is cheating in school bad? Because if you don't do your own work, you won't ever understand the concepts being taught. Computers cannot teach us how to do anything; they can only do the work for us. This doesn't mean that computers are useless, but we're introducing our children to them -and worse, making them dependent on the technology- far too young.

[SVass]

Yes, children should be taught addition and that multiplication is multiple additions. I am not convinced that they need to know mechanical algorithms for doing multiplication and division using pencil and paper just as they do not need to know how to extract cube roots. They should learn representation of numbers including exponents and logarithms. Then they can learn to use slide rules, calculators, and spread sheets. Remember that Socrates argued that young children should not be taught to read until after they developed a good memory. sam