[pooka]

Originally Posted by ghporter

How about "many were ABLE to flee." A lot of people don't have the resources to bug out on short notice-with the fair public transportation available in New Orleans (it's there and just about all over, but not in the best of shape), a whole lot of people don't have cars. How does one evacuate with enough to survive for a couple of days without transportation?

Sorry. I did note that most either refused or were unable but that did sound a little shitty. I didn't mean to sound like a heartless prick. I just get a little miffed when I hear about the NOPD having to fight with people to make them evacuate. Happens too often.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Hugi

I've paid special notice to houses under construction in San José, CA when I have gone there. Having worked a tiny bit on carpentry here in Iceland, I was amazed at how different house frames look there - the planks are tiny in comparison and very and widely spaced. I remember my astonishment when one night I snuck up to a fire station being built there. The frame was finished and they were about to start covering it - but you could literally shake the entire frame around using a little force!! It almost looked like it was made from matchsticks. (3" planks)

Since then, I have never been surprised when I see US houses being torn to pieces in Hurricanes.

I've been trying to find pics of how houses are built here but with no luck. Do you know where I could find it?


Bara svona til að sýna bindijárna flækjuna og svona

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

I've been trying to find pics of how houses are built here but with no luck. Do you know where I could find it?


Bara svona til að sýna bindijárna flækjuna og svona

Considering the location in your sig is written in Arabic (and no, I don't read Arabic), I have to ask where "here" is for you.

[effgee]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane

That is actually a very interesting picture. Take a closer look at some (most, actually) of the single bricks - many of them do not seem have an evenly spread layer of mortar on them but are only partially covered with mortar specks. It is also extremely odd that the debree looks more like a pile of LEGOs than parts that formerly made up a wall. Normally, you'd expect that here and there, you'd actually see larger pieces of debree comprised of a couple of bricks that were not ripped apart one by one.

It is of course next to impossible to come to a truly accurate conclusion by looking at one photo only but somehow this particular pile of rubble looks like a tell-tale sign of sloppy craftmanship.

A hurricane that rips apart a structure 10"x3" piece by 10"x3" piece (approx.) and, on top of that, blows away the mortar only to leave behind single bricks only partially covered with mortar sounds very weird, to say the least.

[Hugi]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

I've been trying to find pics of how houses are built here but with no luck. Do you know where I could find it?

Bara svona til að sýna bindijárna flækjuna og svona

Unfortunately no. It's time to go walking by Elliðavatn with the camera .

Og já, það veitir ekkert af að sýna bindijárna- og vinklafarganið okkar. Mér ofbauð virkilega þarna úti og man glögglega eftir sterklegri burðarvirkjum í Legolandi.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Hugi

Unfortunately no. It's time to go walking by Elliðavatn with the camera .

Sounds like a good idea!

Og já, það veitir ekkert af að sýna bindijárna- og vinklafarganið okkar. Mér ofbauð virkilega þarna úti og man glögglega eftir sterklegri burðarvirkjum í Legolandi.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by ghporter

Considering the location in your sig is written in Arabic (and no, I don't read Arabic), I have to ask where "here" is for you.

Sorry, I forgot. The usual suspects in the pol lounge know where I currently reside but I always forget that there are other members here on MacNN. I live in Iceland.




(the arabic means Dar al-Harb or House/Dominion of War)

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by effgee

That is actually a very interesting picture. Take a closer look at some (most, actually) of the single bricks - many of them do not seem have an evenly spread layer of mortar on them but are only partially covered with mortar specks. It is also extremely odd that the debree looks more like a pile of LEGOs than parts that formerly made up a wall. Normally, you'd expect that here and there, you'd actually see larger pieces of debree comprised of a couple of bricks that were not ripped apart one by one.

It is of course next to impossible to come to a truly accurate conclusion by looking at one photo only but somehow this particular pile of rubble looks like a tell-tale sign of sloppy craftmanship.

A hurricane that rips apart a structure 10"x3" piece by 10"x3" piece (approx.) and, on top of that, blows away the mortar only to leave behind single bricks only partially covered with mortar sounds very weird, to say the least.

What you're seeing is bricks that were blown apart pretty quickly, either by air pressure or (more likely) water pressure. Mortar is a fairly poor "glue," doing a better job at being easy to adjust in thickness than to stick bricks together. Further, that was probably a rather old wall, and the mortar had dried out and become pretty crumbly. It's not too surprising that the mortar didn't stick on the tumbled bricks. In fact, there are a lot of sources for "recycled" brick from demolition of old structures, and except for a mild acid cleaning, you get bricks that were just pulled out of an old wall and scraped off. It's startling to see the first time, but that picture is a very good example of an old wall that collapsed.

A reinforced cinderblock wall WOULD have fallen down in larger chunks, but note that these bricks don't even have holes for any reinforcment steel (which is how you can tell it's an old wall). They were a careful stack of material kept in place by gravity and squished, cement-bearing mud (also known as mortar).

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by effgee

That is actually a very interesting picture. Take a closer look at some (most, actually) of the single bricks - many of them do not seem have an evenly spread layer of mortar on them but are only partially covered with mortar specks. It is also extremely odd that the debree looks more like a pile of LEGOs than parts that formerly made up a wall. Normally, you'd expect that here and there, you'd actually see larger pieces of debree comprised of a couple of bricks that were not ripped apart one by one.

It is of course next to impossible to come to a truly accurate conclusion by looking at one photo only but somehow this particular pile of rubble looks like a tell-tale sign of sloppy craftmanship.

A hurricane that rips apart a structure 10"x3" piece by 10"x3" piece (approx.) and, on top of that, blows away the mortar only to leave behind single bricks only partially covered with mortar sounds very weird, to say the least.

From the look of the building in the background, which I assume is where that wall came from, it seems to be a rather old construct, and probably pretty poorly maintaned. That brick probably hadn't been repointed in years, which makes it easy for water to get in (NOLA is a very wet city) and break down the joints. And I imagine being a coastal city, the salt air plays hell on morter and concrete, just like what happens here with our bridge decks from the salt used to clear snow and ice from the roads.

Or it might just be plain old shoddy construction, or a combonation there of.

[von Wrangell]

Found this pic of how things are done in Iceland. Not the best but I'll try to find something better.



What do you Americans and Europeans think when you see that? Is it similar to how things are done in your areas?

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane

From the look of the building in the background, which I assume is where that wall came from, it seems to be a rather old construct, and probably pretty poorly maintaned. That brick probably hadn't been repointed in years, which makes it easy for water to get in (NOLA is a very wet city) and break down the joints. And I imagine being a coastal city, the salt air plays hell on morter and concrete, just like what happens here with our bridge decks from the salt used to clear snow and ice from the roads.

Or it might just be plain old shoddy construction, or a combonation there of.

While there's little salt air (NO is surrounded by the Mississippi River and Lake Ponchatrain) there's plenty of water in the air 24/7/365. (And it's seldom that any snow falls anywhere near NO, so there's no salting of roads etc.) I don't think that wall had EVER been repointed.

One thing I used to do when I'd stroll around in the French Quarter was examine the architecture. Fine old buildings there with the emphasis on OLD. Not too much in the way of upkeep on stuff that doesn't show to the tourists, either, which gives the place a gamy kind of "lived in" character. And of course allows brick walls to crumble this way.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Found this pic of how things are done in Iceland. Not the best but I'll try to find something better.



What do you Americans and Europeans think when you see that? Is it similar to how things are done in your areas?

That looks like the perimeter of a rather heavy-duty foundation. Considering the cyclic thermal stresses in Iceland (not to mention the geothermal issues that may or may not present themselves at any given point on the island) along with the reputation for some pretty stiff winds, that looks like a more than sturdy enough begining for a building.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by ghporter

Here in the States we do not have 300-year old chateaus, 500-year old castles, and the like, and construction has focused on private family dwellings, not elaborate masonry originally built for aristocrats, so we're not likely to have the kind of building that you talked about your Paris apartment being in.

I don't live in a chateau. Wish I did though . Mine is a working class building built to house labourers in the salt works that used to be near my place.

Originally Posted by ghporter

And it's foolhardy to even suggest that a home that has stood the test of storm and time should be replaced simply because more robust building techniques and materials are now available? Who's going to pay for replacing all the homes that have been there for 40 or more years and have done just fine until now?

I'm not suggesting that. I'm just saying new buildings in these regions where we know that wood is getting blown away, should be built of something stronger.

Since we're doing oversized images:
[no we're not. the others were within reasonable tolerance of the rules. --tooki]

You may be right that nothing could resist the forces those houses were subjected to, but perhaps it's worth designing something that will resist instead of repeating the same mistakes.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Troll

I don't live in a chateau. Wish I did though . Mine is a working class building built to house labourers in the salt works that used to be near my place.

And built a long time ago by many, many other laborers...it's just not possible today to build some things the way they were built 150 or more years ago.

Originally Posted by Troll

You may be right that nothing could resist the forces those houses were subjected to, but perhaps it's worth designing something that will resist instead of repeating the same mistakes.

Absolutely no argument here on that score. But how to do that, and most importantly how to build resistant housing that people can afford-that's the biggest problem.

[rozwado1]

I think I missed out on the argument about which type of building type is stronger, but I'll argue that block construction is stronger than wood frame, and also cheaper.

There's different ways to build a residential structure, but currently, the strongest way possible is to build with concrete-poured block and continuous lintels supporting the truss layout. Miami-Dade building code only requires block to be poured every 6-8 feet, but our company offers the option to pour your walls solid.

We then have a continuous lintel structure (with rebar throughout) that is poured solid with concrete, so the whole roof is supported by a solid lintel ring that tops the block walls. (The lintels and walls are poured at the same time to make it one single structure.) Trusses are then strapped to the lintels using different grades of hurricane straps (depending on what the customer wants).

With this continuous lintel construction you can drive a car through a wall and the roof is still supported by the lintels (they're usually 16' long).
We can get lintels and block rated up to 6000psi; standard is 3000. This construction comes at a price, a price that most people in New Orleans couldn't afford, but it is worth it if you're paranoid and you live on the beach.

Oh, block is cheaper than wood if you want to make a structurally equal building. The cost of the labor for block is cheaper here since most crews are Mexican and most framing crews are American.

[ghporter]

Unfortunately, rozwdo1, not every area has trained and experienced crews that can do even a rudimentary job with block construction-most block construction I see here looks like stacked block instead of even the simplest running bond. And I'm not sure what you meant about your crews, since most construction crews of any type around here are either Mexican or first to second generation Mexican American.

Also, how does your company handle insulation once the walls are finished?

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Found this pic of how things are done in Iceland. Not the best but I'll try to find something better.

*pic snipped*

What do you Americans and Europeans think when you see that? Is it similar to how things are done in your areas?

You'll find different methods used in different parts of the country, depending on local building codes and the environment they are being built in. Where I live, most homes have a basement, but you'll find parts of the country where that would be a rarity for good reason. The process is excavating your site; pour your footer (concrete), 8/10 courses of block (or poured concrete, although I once did a pressure treated wood foundation), sill plate (pressure treated), then your framing. Here you must use at least 2X6's wall studs, 16 inches on center, your beams must be steel or laminated. Floor joists must be 8X10 douglas fir or laminated joists. It has been a while since I've done any actual building, so these things might not still be accurate, but it gives an idea anyway.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by ghporter

And built a long time ago by many, many other laborers...it's just not possible today to build some things the way they were built 150 or more years ago.

Actually, my building was built in 1920 so it's not that old but I take your point. The reason most buildings in Paris are built of limestone (apart from the ban on wood buildings) is that Paris sits on a bed of limestone. There were tons of quarries all over where they dug the stuff out. Montmartre used to be a quarry for example.

[Kevin]

The answer? Live in caves.

[Troll]

Actually, I think the US Government did a remarkable job of getting people out of there. It just shows you what an investment in early warning systems can achieve. If only poorer countries had this technology. The relevant government departments really deserve a big pat on the back though. They saved thousands of lives.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by LilWolfChokingOnCigs68

I didn't realize we had so many experts on construction in this place. It's simply amazing!

...and I'm actually a civil engineer and not even participating!

[Kevin]

I knew someone that lived in the French Quarter. He used to give me live video streams of Mardi Gras.

Even sent me a souvenier sugar cube from the festivities.

I haven't head from him for a few days. I hope he got out in time.

I am sure he did. He had TONS of computer equipment though

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by ajprice

I always thought it was because they got bored after hearing about the first 2 little piggies building their houses.

http://www.sound-effect.com/sounds/h...e/cheer_8k.wav

[effgee]

Originally Posted by badidea

...and I'm actually a civil engineer and not even participating!

Bauingenieur? ... der Todfeind des Architekten!

[badidea]

Originally Posted by effgee

Bauingenieur? ... der Todfeind des Architekten!

...aber, aber ich hab doch "nur" den NC für Architektur nicht geschafft und jetzt muss ich auch noch mit Maschinenbauern zusammenarbeiten...!

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by effgee

That is actually a very interesting picture. Take a closer look at some (most, actually) of the single bricks - many of them do not seem have an evenly spread layer of mortar on them but are only partially covered with mortar specks. It is also extremely odd that the DEBRIS looks more like a pile of LEGOs than parts that formerly made up a wall. Normally, you'd expect that here and there, you'd actually see larger pieces of DEBRIS comprised of a couple of bricks that were not ripped apart one by one.

It is of course next to impossible to come to a truly accurate conclusion by looking at one photo only but somehow this particular pile of rubble looks like a tell-tale sign of sloppy craftmanship.

A hurricane that rips apart a structure 10"x3" piece by 10"x3" piece (approx.) and, on top of that, blows away the mortar only to leave behind single bricks only partially covered with mortar sounds very weird, to say the least.

Fixed. For the next natural disaster discussion.

[moonmonkey]

my house is made of stones, and as a terrible result, there are devilish beasties, such as borogoves and glis glis havin' bairns in the seams and coughing up filth from the well when the parson visits.

[effgee]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Fixed. For the next natural disaster discussion.

Ooopsie.

mojo2: "No more posting for you! Come back in two years!!"

Originally Posted by badidea

..aber, aber ich hab doch "nur" den NC für Architektur nicht geschafft und jetzt muss ich auch noch mit Maschinenbauern zusammenarbeiten...!

Maschinenbauer??ß? Uh oh, my sincerest and most heartfelt condolences.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by effgee

Maschinenbauer??ß? Uh oh, my sincerest and most heartfelt condolences.

Well, the mechanical engineers are not the biggest problem - the lack of good looking women that is!

[effgee]

Originally Posted by badidea

Well, the mechanical engineers are not the biggest problem - the lack of good looking women that is!

Believe me - they are the problem, they are ... it's because of the mechs that no good-looking women work near you. They must have some kind of hormone thing or something going ... like a natural "chick-repellent"

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by moonmonkey

my house is made of stones, and as a terrible result, there are devilish beasties, such as borogoves and glis glis havin' bairns in the seams and coughing up filth from the well when the parson visits.

So, do you have slithy toves gyring and gimbling in the wabe during brillig?

[rozwado1]

Originally Posted by ghporter

And I'm not sure what you meant about your crews, since most construction crews of any type around here are either Mexican or first to second generation Mexican American.

Labor prices are cheaper (but sometimes it's a legality issue)

Originally Posted by ghporter

Also, how does your company handle insulation once the walls are finished?

Well, the cheapest way is to use the 1/2" foam board inside of the block for insulation, with R30 inside the interior walls and attic/garage.

We also offer different spray foams that completely seal off the house from the exterior, making it cooler and more efficient. ICYNENE is one of the products that we use, and on most homes (single-story) it actually makes a difference in the temp as soon as it's applied. It seals off the roof completely so there's no venting and it'll void a shigle warranty, so we only use it on metal and clay tile roofs. You can tell on our dried-in homes (no windows or doors yet) that the temp is about 15º lower under the roof. That stuff has to be toxic - it's too good.

[moonmonkey]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

French ≠ European

[I was David B.]

Originally Posted by Troll

In Europe, a car is considered a tool. Europeans generally don't wash their cars ever, they park by simply driving into the car in front of them. A car that is more than 6 months old that isn't dented is extremely rare but the average European wouldn't care if it did have dents. I think he's saying that Europeans treat cars as consumables.

Where did you read this crap?

[Troll]

Originally Posted by I was David B.

Where did you read this crap?

As I said earlier, I was trying to explain what I thought someone else's point was. That said, that pretty much sums up the attitude of Parisians to their cars.

[I was David B.]

Originally Posted by Troll

As I said earlier, I was trying to explain what I thought someone else's point was. That said, that pretty much sums up the attitude of Parisians to their cars.

Ok, I was kidding.
I know how things are in France and especially in Paris.

But, as has been said before, this is by no means european style. This is purely and only french style!

[Troll]

Originally Posted by I was David B.

But, as has been said before, this is by no means european style. This is purely and only french style!

You say that as if any other European country had style.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Troll

As I said earlier, I was trying to explain what I thought someone else's point was. That said, that pretty much sums up the attitude of Parisians to their cars.

Who cares about parisians or french people ? They don't represent all europeans.

I know many europeans (not french) and they do care about their cars. Only an idiot wouldn't care about dents in their car.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by PacHead

Who cares about parisians or french people ? They don't represent all europeans.

I know many europeans (not french) and they do care about their cars. Only an idiot wouldn't care about dents in their car.

You seem to have a

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Troll

You seem to have a

No sorry, I don't own any blue boxes with question marks in it.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by PacHead

No sorry, I don't own any blue boxes with question marks in it.

Damn! It was a luvverly pic of a chip on a shoulder.

Never mind, I called Ludivine Sagnier and she said she doesn't care about you either.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Troll

Damn! It was a luvverly pic of a chip on a shoulder.

Never mind, I called Ludivine Sagnier and she said she doesn't care about you either.
[/IMG]

That's ok, there's a few billion other females in the world for me to ravage.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by PacHead

That's ok, there's a few billion other females in the world for me to ravage.

Ah yes, but the difference with French girls is that ravage YOU rather than the other way around.

[moonmonkey]

Originally Posted by Troll

Damn! It was a luvverly pic of a chip on a shoulder.

Never mind, I called Ludivine Sagnier and she said she doesn't care about you either.

You do realize most of that hair is coming out from her armpits.

[I was David B.]

Originally Posted by Troll

You say that as if any other European country had style.

Yes indeed. But its not a "I don't care for dents in my car" -style.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Troll

You say that as if any other European country had style.

OWN3D.