[GSixZero]

I'm toying with the thought of going to law school, and I thought I'd see what people have to say about the profession. (Jokes aside, please)

I know what lawyers do, but I'm trying to figure out if I'm really cut out for it. I've always enjoyed law, and reading about the nitty gritty details of litigation but I've never seriously considered it before since my interests have been mainly in science (my undergrad is in physics/math). I've begun to think that it may be a good career move, though, especially combining my knowledge of science and perhaps going into patent law. Anyone have any advice. (Can o' worms, I know)

[Captain Obvious]

Get a job at a firm for the summer before you attend law school. See if it is what you expect and if you are willing to put in the time and money.
Choose the law school not just by ranking but the teaching philosophy they employ. Some tend to take a more practical approach to teaching while others delve more into theory. I know of people who chose to switch schools after 1L because they weren't happy with how the school they first went to taught.

Math and science backgrounds could lend strength to someone who wants to focus on IP law.

[olePigeon]

Leader of Senate: All fellow members of the Roman senate hear me. Shall we continue to build palace after palace for the rich? Or shall we aspire to a more noble purpose and build decent housing for the poor? How does the senate vote?
Entire Senate: F*CK THE POOR!

[Dork.]

I have no clue about being a lawyer, but keep in mind that many big companies (esp. tech companies) have legal staff that deal specifically with patents and IP. You might want to try looking there for work as well as more traditional legal firms. If you find a company that can specifically make use of your physics background (I don't think we can patent math yet, unless software patents count), you might actually be able to get a pretty decent position if they're willing to invest some training in you.

[SimeyTheLimey]

I'd second the idea of working as a legal assistant after college. It's a good way to see firm life up close - warts and all. Just be slightly careful though. Legal assistants really only get to see the grunt work, and the most tedious jobs in law firms tend to get pushed down the ladder to the most junior people. A lot of legal assistants get horribly jaded because all they have seen is long hours, and mindless work. Not that you don't get some of that as a lawyer too, of course. But legal assistants tend to see nothing else. Basements, mountains of documents and overtime can get you down. Consider other positions in a law firm like library assistant, or HR. Or go get a legal job with a state, federal, or local government office, or with a court.

I'm not sure that I would agree with the advice about picking schools by teaching philosophy. First off, I am not sure that they vary all that much. I work with lawyers who went to a half dozen of the top schools, and frankly, our experiences sound pretty similar. Obviously, you do get some differences but I don't really think it is night and day. No matter which school you go to, you will have law professors very much cut from the same mold. You make of law school what you will even if you don't agree with the professors all the time.

As a rule of thumb, the higher ranked the school, the more you can do with the degree and that is important because most law students don't know what type of law they want to practice until often a year or two after they graduate. I'd personally place that higher on a list of priorities than whether you happen to like the philosophy of your teachers because law school only lasts three or four years whereas a door that is slammed in your face stays slammed in your face for a lifetime.

On the other hand, some lower ranked schools can open doors that higher ranked schools sometimes can't. Some regional markets are hard to break into if you went to an out of state school, even if the school you went to is more "prestigious." You may also be more drawn to public interest law, or for practice in a smaller market, either of which might make you more interested in law schools outside the top 50. On the other, other hand, I also know several people who transferred after their 1L year. They all transferred from lower-ranked schools to higher-ranked ones, nobody I know went from a higher-ranked school to a lower-ranked one. I don't think that is a coincidence. In sum, I'd say that if you are deciding between Chicago and NYU, or Harvard and UVA, then it is ok to set aside the strict rankings. But if your choice is between Pepperdine and Yale, you'd probably be smarter to pick Yale even if you aren't drawn to their theoretical teaching methods. In any case, you won't know whether that is an issue for you anyway until you have your LSAT score in hand.

IP with a science background can be a very good move, providing, of course, that is what you want to do. Remember also, there is a lot more to the practice of law than litigation.

[freudling]

A lot more to law than just litigation, like cocaine perhaps.

[israces]

Find a school with a joint JD/MBA program and suck it up for the extra year and get the MBA too. If you're going to do it, might as well go all out.

[freudling]

Find a school with a joint JD/MBA program and suck it up for the extra year and get the MBA too. If you're going to do it, might as well go all out.

No pun intended.

[freudling]

Rent Carlito's Way with Al Pacino. Maybe you will end up like Sean Penn ripping off mafia guys and doing blow to get through all the paperwork that goes along with being a lawyer. But hey, hang on for 10 years plus and then you can be a partner. Then you can buy chics because first, you will have the extra cash and, second, that's the only way they will be with you.

[Cody Dawg]

I say do what everyone else does when it comes to most lawyers and law: Have a slip and fall at a big corporation and sue them.

You'll make more money than you ever dreamed of, get a taste of the legal process, and you'll be doing what the majority of American lawyers beg you to do: Sue someone.

Better yet, have a slip and fall at the prestigious law firm you intern for. That'll be perfect.



Lawyers, especially personal injury, suck and suck bad. They've worked hard to ruin the fabric of American morality.

Seriously, consider another profession.

[Atriot]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Lawyers, especially personal injury, suck and suck bad. They've worked hard to ruin the fabric of American morality.

Would'nt those who comprise the fabric of American "Morality" be the ones who are hiring the lawyers?

[Cody Dawg]

Yeah, you're right! BECAUSE LAWYERS ARE ALL OVER TELEVISION BEGGING PEOPLE TO CALL THEM TO SUE SOMEONE - ANYONE - FOR ANYTHING!

They are ambulance chasers, frauds, you name it.

Down here in Florida I saw one commercial the other day that was truly unbelievable:

"Are you one of the workers who works for a Florida company doing physically hard and dangerous work in the clean-up after hurricanes? Are you unhappy that your company has hired out-of-state workers who do exactly the same job that you do and get paid more than you do when you have been with your company longer? If so, call A.S. Clown to speak to a workman's compensation attorney. We'll help you get the kind of respect you deserve."



Unbelievable!

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

On the other hand, some lower ranked schools can open doors that higher ranked schools sometimes can't. Some regional markets are hard to break into if you went to an out of state school, even if the school you went to is more "prestigious."

That's why my girlfriend picked Case Western. She's still thinking about transferring, though (she's a 1L).

[OldManMac]

Cody, if the market didn't exist for these schmucks, they wouldn't be there. Don't kill the messenger. Besides, these guys are but a fraction of lawyers.

[Cody Dawg]

At least you called them schmucks.

[Atriot]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Yeah, you're right! BECAUSE LAWYERS ARE ALL OVER TELEVISION BEGGING PEOPLE TO CALL THEM TO SUE SOMEONE - ANYONE - FOR ANYTHING!

Yes its called advertising Cody and if you have a shred of willpower or real "American morality" you would be able to resist it. You cant just blame lawyers, there are jurys involved in the court process too. I'd direct some resentment at them and the plaintiffs.

[Cody Dawg]

No, the American legal system is overrun with losers who call themselves lawyers.

They literally chase ambulances, some of them.

I think KarlG said it best: They're "schmucks."

Visit Overlawyered.com and you'll begin to better understand what I'm talking about.

[wdlove]

I wish you well in your decision.

Lawyers have made sure that they are needed. A perpetual job setup.

[Atriot]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

No, the American legal system is overrun with losers who call themselves lawyers.

They literally chase ambulances, some of them.

I think KarlG said it best: They're "schmucks."

Visit Overlawyered.com and you'll begin to better understand what I'm talking about.

Who ever hires them is a Schmuck. End story. Cease the demand = end the problem.

[SVass]

Back to patent law: I've seen some recent patent applications from Microsoft indicating that no one with a science background ever read them. (They got one for the idea of floating point numbers.) You would be at a disadvantage in patent law as you might laugh at the stupidity of some of the applications.

For those who complain, lawsuits are better than wars for we innocent bystanders. sam

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

At least you called them schmucks.

The "schmucks" I was referring to are the ambulance chasers. The vast majority of the legal profession, just like any profession (well, maybe politcians excepted ), are at least honest. Next time you need a lawyer because you feel you've been slighted, call one and tell him he's a schmuck, but you need his services anyway, and see what reaction you get. Almost 100,000 people die in this country annually, as an example, due to hospital negligence and mistakes; sometimes it's good to have a "schmuck" on your side.

[goMac]

I only trust this lawyer.

[Cody Dawg]

I can't get the page to open up in timely fashion.

[GSixZero]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I can't get the page to open up in timely fashion.

It's a 7.2 MB movie. Right (or control) click and "download liked file as"

[GSixZero]

Thanks for all the comments everyone. I'm just beginning to think about this. I signed up to take the LSATs, and I am going to some law school open houses this weekend.

You're right that the legal system is somewhat broken, I totally agree. I haven't decided if adding one more lawyer (me) only makes that system worse, or if perhaps I could make a little bit of difference for the good. I'm certainly not a idealist in that sense, but doing some good while finding an interesting and fulfilling profession would be great.

We'll see what happens!

[Monique]

I would like to know if there is any lawyers:

My customers are sexually abusive toward me (and my co-workers) and the company I work for (Telus) encourage the customers to do so by telling us that we have to answer all the needs of the customers. Is the company liable to sexual harrassment??

[SVass]

Monique, Canada has its own legal system and it is different from our US system. Charles Dickens expressed an opinion about the English system that may also apply to yours.

Our system is not broken, just bent in a few places. sam

[Fyre4ce]

Originally Posted by Atriot

Who ever hires them is a Schmuck. End story. Cease the demand = end the problem.

Not quite. The American legal system allows these suits to succeed. If bogus, frivolous law suits were brushed off, the problem wouldn't exist. The real problem is the morality that has spawned the attitude that whenever something bad happens, (a) someone is responsible, and (b) the person responsible must pay large sums of money as compensation. It's ********.

[Cody Dawg]

Not quite. The American legal system allows these suits to succeed. If bogus, frivolous law suits were brushed off, the problem wouldn't exist. The real problem is the morality that has spawned the attitude that whenever something bad happens, (a) someone is responsible, and (b) the person responsible must pay large sums of money as compensation. It's ********.

THANK YOU!

to Fyre4ce

[Captain Obvious]

Originally Posted by Fyre4ce

The real problem is the morality that has spawned the attitude that whenever something bad happens, (a) someone is responsible, and (b) the person responsible must pay large sums of money as compensation. It's ********.

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...p;#post2735075

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

THANK YOU!

to Fyre4ce

That gaping hole you call a mouth needs to be shut more often. YDC

[Artful Dodger]

Originally Posted by Fyre4ce

Not quite. The American legal system allows these suits to succeed. If bogus, frivolous law suits were brushed off, the problem wouldn't exist. The real problem is the morality that has spawned the attitude that whenever something bad happens, (a) someone is responsible, and (b) the person responsible must pay large sums of money as compensation. It's ********.

AMEN!! well put

[Cody Dawg]

Yes, to you, Artful Dodger, and to Fyre4ce.

[israces]

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...p;#post2735075



That gaping hole you call a mouth needs to be shut more often. YDC

I was going to write some sort of reply pointing to jury composition and equal protection, blah, blah, blah, but why waste my time when your post is much more to the point. Nice use of the previous post link. Thank you Cappy!

[alligator]

If everyone is through lawyer bashing, I'll step up and admit that I'm an attorney. IP in fact. I work for a corporation, file patent applications, hire outside counsel for litigation, and just generally give advice. It is a nice job, and I enjoy going to work every morning. It also pays for my Apple toys.

Does litigation make me excited? No. It's hard, not very much fun, and I'd rather settle disputes out of court. Unfortunately, by the time most of the people come to me, they are too far beyond amicable settlement.

It is also unfortunate that the only time you'll really be thankful for a lawyer is when you really need one to stand up for your rights or to read that difficult contract. There are many people in this world being abused, and we are the only voice they have. For example, think about the child caught in the middle of a custody battle. Or the immigrant who is being harassed because of her ethnicity.

If you really want to know what being an attorney is all about, ask one. Seriously.

[BlueSky]

I'd be grateful if I had a lawyer get me out of a jam. On the other hand, there's stuff like this:

According to the settlement, Netflix has reached a settlement that will provide the following remedies:

-(blahblahblah)

-The lead plaintiff gets a $2,000 cash "bonus" from Netflix.

-And, of course, the kicker - subscribers get a rigged upgrade, the lead plaintiff gets a token amount of money, and... wait for it... The lawyers get $2,528,000

http://www.netflixsettlementsucks.com/

[Cody Dawg]

Yes, isn't that the truth?

Last year Florida passed a law that limited the percentage that lawyers could get in disputes such as personal injury. There was a long line of attorneys headed out of state, I'm sure.

Yes, there are respectable attorneys and yes, I have friends who are attorneys.

But there are a lot of ambulance chasers who give your profession a very bad name. They sue just to get insurance companies to settle. Yes, you admit you'd like to settle your cases. You count on the insurance companies throwing up their proverbial hands and saying, "Let's see. It's going to cost XXX and take XXX time so let's just pay XXX dollars."

That's chump change and "settling" cases just to get money and make the job easier is no way to call the legal profession honorable.

[Cody Dawg]

Oh, and one more thing?

The whole issue where prosecutors level the most serious offenses against a person - even offenses that did not occur - just to get someone to admit guilt to another supposed crime (before the person has even appeared in court no less) is very shameful.

There are many instances where people have pleaded guilty to a crime that they did not even commit in order to avoid dealing with another crime.

It's really pathetic and an example of the bogus nature of even criminal proceedings.

[Captain Obvious]

Originally Posted by BlueSky

I'd be grateful if I had a lawyer get me out of a jam. On the other hand, there's stuff like this:



http://www.netflixsettlementsucks.com/

Well, that is a stupid example.

It is a class action law suit. The attorney may have represented thousands of clients each getting about that same amount as the first gentleman from the settlement. His fees would have to cover the salaries of his staff, travel costs, etc., and it may have also been the only case he handled in that time. Which may have taken a few years. Its possible he may have only cleared $300k a year after factoring out all the expenses over time.

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious

Well, that is a stupid example.

It is a class action law suit. The attorney may have represented thousands of clients each getting about that same amount as the first gentleman from the settlement. His fees would have to cover the salaries of his staff, travel costs, etc., and it may have also been the only case he handled in that time. Which may have taken a few years. Its possible he may have only cleared $300k a year after factoring out all the expenses over time.

My thoughts exactly, with the exception of your first and second paragraphs.

The lawsuit was filed Sept. 2004, a year ago. The lead plaintiff got $2000.00, everyone else got "one month free of upgraded service" on Netflix. The attorney got $2.5 million.

[Captain Obvious]

Good for him then. But he still has a staff to pay for that year's worth of work so the money is not going to just one person. Either way, there's still a boat load of people with less education who have to put in less effort to earn guaranteed paychecks bigger than that. If he had lost he would not earned anywhere close to that amount and still have had to pay his staff their wages.

Sucks for people who didn't pick the right career path.

[Artful Dodger]

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious

Good for him then. But he still has a staff to pay for that year's worth of work so the money is not going to just one person. Either way, there's still a boat load of people with less education who have to put in less effort to earn guaranteed paychecks bigger than that. If he had lost he would not earned anywhere close to that amount and still have had to pay his staff their wages.

Sucks for people who didn't pick the right career path.

what's the right career path?

[Cody Dawg]

I think lawyers are fine and necessary.

But, I also think it's foolish to blindly state that lawyering, as a profession, is a perfect art.

It's not. I just think it needs more regulation, that's all. It's a fascinating subject because it deals with interpretations and is not necessarily an exact science. I just wish there was a way to make outcomes approximate more of an equitable situation for all parties involved. Sometimes it seems that it is the attorney that benefits the most.

$2.5 MILLION dollars to support a staff for a year? What kind of staff would that be, exactly?

[SVass]

Cody, that would be a staff containing Michael Brown, Louis Libby, and other fine lawyers. sam

[Captain Obvious]

OK but let's say this isn't a case with big name attorneys or a large firm.
Just a small firm making a name of itself.

No way there was less than 10 people working. So let's go with that number and keep estimates low knowing full well the final number is probably more for a one attorney firm. Law clerks clear 35K a year starting salary. Throw in there paralegals, legal assistants, secretaries, office staff and that group of ten people is going to cost you 400-500k.
The cost of office space, supplies, and firm operating expenses and you add another 300k.
Personal living expenses if you don't have a family 100k. If you do no less than 200k.
The cost of going to trial up against the resources of a company like Blockbuster 100k but more than likely much more.

So there's a million-one just to break even and you haven't even paid taxe yet. You make no profit before this and you probably have other debt you need to cover. If you don't get a settlement in your favor you owe that money no matter what. If this is the only area you work in then this is the situation year in and year out. No one has a 100% success rate and most of these cases go on for years before you see a dime.

[shabbasuraj]

Lawyers errrrrrrrrrr leaches........

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by shabbasuraj

Lawyers errrrrrrrrrr leaches........

Wasn't it Shakespeare who said....

"First kill all the lawyers",

and Stalin followed up on it?