[freudling]

Does the pain and suffering in life overwhelm any good afforded by the continuance of it? As the Greeks acknowledged the hardships inherent, the 'easy' answer being to end it, they dogmatically argued (Socrates, Plato....) that suicide is wrong as it displeases the Gods: the essence of Greek tragedy. Life sucks in the Schopenhauer sense, but keep living it because killing oneself is a sin.

Is Bradley Nowell a symbol of complete freedom we all want?

[Artful Dodger]

when people say life is tough, i wonder compared to what? is it logical to make uninformed decisions?

[RAILhead]

Suicide is the ultimate wuss-out. It's your own fault if you can't find a reason to live, an choosing to end it shows you don't have the nads to deal with reality. People need to learn to put their big-girl and big-boy undies on.

[Lateralus]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

Suicide is the ultimate wuss-out. It's your own fault if you can't find a reason to live, an choosing to end it shows you don't have the nads to deal with reality. People need to learn to put their big-girl and big-boy undies on.

That is one of the biggest loads of **** I have ever heard.

Not everybody commits suicide simply because there are things about their life that they don't like. Many, many people end up committing suicide because they are chemically imbalanced and can't snap out of depressed states, only falling further into them. And when they reach out for help, people tell them to 'learn to deal'.

[screamingFit]

Originally Posted by freudling

Is Bradley Nowell a symbol of complete freedom we all want?

Who???

[wdlove]

Suicide is a very sad situation. I pray that those afflicted can get the help they need. Suicide is often a call for help.

[freudling]

Bradley Nowell was the lead man for Sublime. He died at 28 in 1996.

[willed]

Originally Posted by Lateralus

Not everybody commits suicide simply because there are things about their life that they don't like. Many, many people end up committing suicide because they are chemically imbalanced and can't snap out of depressed states, only falling further into them. And when they reach out for help, people tell them to 'learn to deal'.

Fair enough, but at least your point of view is obviously that suicide isn't logical, it's caused by chemical imbalance.

I do think that suicude, in many cases, is an act of cowardice, even though it is un-politically correct to say so, but I'll admit I'm no expert on the subject.

With life at least there is always the possibility that things will get better. With death, there are no further possibilities. As the first poster pointed out, even if you believe in an afterlife suicide is said to put an end to that too, being against God's will and all that.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by freudling

Does the pain and suffering in life overwhelm any good afforded by the continuance of it? As the Greeks acknowledged the hardships inherent, the 'easy' answer being to end it, they dogmatically argued (Socrates, Plato....) that suicide is wrong as it displeases the Gods:

Is it logical to do something only to avoid displeasing a god?

[subego]

[nitpick]
I think you mean reasonable.
[/nitpick]

Doesn't have quite the same ring though.

[willed]

Originally Posted by wdlove

Suicide is often a call for help.

Well spotted! I think most people would be able to recognise a suicide as a pointer to the fact that someone has a few issues!

Sorry for the sarcasm, but that comment just seemed like a cut-and-paste from a therapy-speak phrase book inserted without much thought. Everything f*cked up that people do is these days described as a call for help.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

Suicide is the ultimate wuss-out. It's your own fault if you can't find a reason to live, an choosing to end it shows you don't have the nads to deal with reality. People need to learn to put their big-girl and big-boy undies on.

After 20 years of working with people with suicidal ideation, I can tell you that your attitude is often a interpreted as a factor of social rejection that will be used for rationale to attempt suicide.

You can be hard on yourself, but only so much. You have no right to be so hard on others. Actually, you need to be understanding and empathetic with them. Does not mean you have to lie, or tell lies of fairy tales that everything will be alright. It means you have to be realistic about life and what is possible. You being tough shows how strongly motivated about life, and your own successes. And that is a good thing. It is unfortunately not like that for everyone.

I understand you have the right to have an opinion, but unfortunately, it is a very bad one. I suggest you do something to try to learn some more on that topic.

People having suicidal ideation are misled in their life experience; they feel eveything they do is bound to failure. They also are depressed, so their perception of reality is dramatically skewed towards the negative. The level of desperation is so high, that when they attempt, they sometimes hope it won't work anf that they will b rescued. Sometimes, the attempt is incomplete, and they survive; a lot can be done then to improve on their situation. Sometimes, they complete their attempt, and there is nothing else to be done for them.

If you want to use the darwinian take on this, it is your right. Unfortunately, that view is totally incomplete, imho.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by willed

Fair enough, but at least your point of view is obviously that suicide isn't logical, it's caused by chemical imbalance.

I do think that suicude, in many cases, is an act of cowardice, even though it is un-politically correct to say so, but I'll admit I'm no expert on the subject.

As I said earlier, and I understand it is easy to say that suicide is an act of cowardice, it is actually none of that. Life is tough and more often than not the people who entertain such ideas did a lot of work to help themselves out. We can criticize what they tried as efficient or appropriate, yet, in their mid, they genuinely believe they have done their best. Sometimes, they really did; what is missing is sometimes a different point of view, but more often than not, it is the feeling of isolation that draws them deeper.

With life at least there is always the possibility that things will get better. With death, there are no further possibilities. As the first poster pointed out, even if you believe in an afterlife suicide is said to put an end to that too, being against God's will and all that.

Excellent points; I wish more people could hear/read you, for that last part. But suicide as nothing to do with courage or cowardice.

[Pendergast]

Here is a link for you who are insterested to read about it.

If you are thinking about suicide, read this first.

[OreoCookie]

It can be. Sometimes **** happens and otherwise stable people can snap. For instance of you loose someone close (a child, a sibling or a spouse) and get fired. Life sometimes gives you the full load. A person can take only so much.

I would say a `real' suicide, i. e. choosing a method that is definitely fatal (jumping off a high bridge for instance), takes a lot of courage and conviction.

Also, I would second Lateralus' initial remark, some people suffer from endogene depression, i. e. their brains have an intrinsic imbalance. I had such a case in my close circle of friends and family. If such a person does not receive the proper medical (and psychological) treatment, it dramatically increases the likelihood of a suicide.

Some random thoughts before I hit the hay. Good night y'all.

[DeathToWindows]

Well, Pliny does make the arguement that suicide is justified (his letter "A Roman Suicide"), but I cannot say I agree with him.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

People having suicidal ideation are misled in their life experience; they feel eveything they do is bound to failure. They also are depressed, so their perception of reality is dramatically skewed towards the negative. The level of desperation is so high, that when they attempt, they sometimes hope it won't work and that they will be rescued. Sometimes, the attempt is incomplete, and they survive; a lot can be done then to improve on their situation. Sometimes, they complete their attempt, and there is nothing else to be done for them.

Well said.

I would like to emphazise the first sentance. People having suicidal ideation are misled in their life experience; they feel eveything they do is bound to failure.

Then the life force dwindles and depression hits you. Depression is a downward vicous circle. It feeds on negativity and hatred - but not for others. For yourself. You end up hating youself and blaming every failure on yourself, even those that are completely out of your control. In the end the thought "I wish I was never born, I only cause pain to others and I am the reason for my own suffering". Logically IMHO that leads to suicidal thoughts as the remidy for the problem.

If you figure out you are the problem, well.. logically removing yourself from the equation will solve it *and* end your suffering at the same time. As you are in the depression you will hurt your family and friends and wear them down, for depression is an isatiable beast. If your next of kin care and love you it becomes even worse because you *know* you do not deserve to be loved. You know you are just causing them suffering with your own suffering.

While your suicide may hurt them for some time, they will forget. It is better than the hatred they will show you after decades of wearing them down or the pain you feel inside. Of course suicide is logical to the person who commits it. It doesn't mean it is logical to those who are left behind.

cheers

W-Y

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

Well said.

I would like to emphazise the first sentance. People having suicidal ideation are misled in their life experience; they feel eveything they do is bound to failure.

Then the life force dwindles and depression hits you. Depression is a downward vicous circle. It feeds on negativity and hatred - but not for others. For yourself. You end up hating youself and blaming every failure on yourself, even those that are completely out of your control. In the end the thought "I wish I was never born, I only cause pain to others and I am the reason for my own suffering". Logically IMHO that leads to suicidal thoughts as the remidy for the problem.

Thank you for the appreciation.

Let me add that depression hits first though.

To go along OreoCookie's post, it is also true that some rare cases see an attempt that appears as coming out of nowhere. The daughter of a friend of mine attempted suicide, and was hospitalized afterwards. When my friend, her mother, asked her why, she said she just acted "on impulse".

3 days ago, a guy called our help line saying he had a gun to his head and was going to shoot. He hung up right then. We were able to send the police, right away, but we still do not know what happene to this person.

A few years ago, I did the psychological autopsy of an 8 years old. He killed himself with a towel... When I read his file, I was horrified at what this child had been the witness of. You might think he had been sexually abused or brutally beaten up. He never was. He was just the witness of senseless violence, in a very hopeless world, a violence that was yet totally justified, but that he could not comprehend.

Is suicide logical?

Actually, it makes sense only for the person who entertains the idea, and for us when they survive and share whatever thoughts they have about it afterwards.

These are my thoughts on the topic.

Peace to everyone, and never forget that you are never alone, even if it is difficult sometimes to reach out for help and be heard.

[Kevin]

There is always hope.

[freudling]

Good points all. But, it looks as though people are generalizing once again in regards to a very sophisticated topic. The exercise is that, aside from people who are mentally skewed such that they are so messed up they kill themselves, there are people, with good looks and good jobs, that kill themselves. In Bradley's case, although it was an overdose, he did not want to get older and was sick of humanity.

My question is, to 'stable' people, is it logical to kill oneself? If you were an ant, and you realized what you were, would you want to continue living? My point is that some people veiw theirselves like that. They feel disgusted, and do not want to suffer the adages of old age. Call it depression, but depression is another label to put on people that are going through a normal process of being a thing alive in this world.

That leads to an idea that there is not necessarily anything wrong with being depressed. I am contesting that it is a natural process in said cases. Plato viewed being in a body and alive as a hinderance. Better to be dead and dwelling in the realm of pure reason.

Perhaps some who are thinking of suicide as a way out know something that 'normal' people don't. The old idiom serves to illlustrate, "Ignorance is Bliss." The more people learn I think the more cynical they become. They might be a stage of frivilousness, but it lingers.

[Salty]

I attempted suicide when everything in my life was falling apart. I can understand that. Not knowing that things will ever get better is a scary place to be in. Actually lately a series of events has unfolded, and while I am no longer considering suicide, I have had some of the same sorts of feelings as I did when I was suicidal, mainly because I am unsure if I'll feel good again any time soon.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by freudling

Good points all. But, it looks as though people are generalizing once again in regards to a very sophisticated topic. The exercise is that, aside from people who are mentally skewed such that they are so messed up they kill themselves, there are people, with good looks and good jobs, that kill themselves. In Bradley's case, although it was an overdose, he did not want to get older and was sick of humanity.

What the media reports is one thing. What actually happened in his head is something irrelevant to what we know.

My question is, to 'stable' people, is it logical to kill oneself? If you were an ant, and you realized what you were, would you want to continue living? My point is that some people veiw theirselves like that. They feel disgusted, and do not want to suffer the adages of old age. Call it depression, but depression is another label to put on people that are going through a normal process of being a thing alive in this world.

Not at all. Depression is part of life, but as a clinical process, it is self-destructive. Normal, but unpleasant. That is the point. You have loads of normal people walking on the streets who have no idea they suffer from depression. Are they in danger? Not necessarily, but there is a potential, if nothing is done to help them change (either by themselves or through a therapyu os some sort, usually a mix of meds and psychotherapy works well) for aggravation.

That leads to an idea that there is not necessarily anything wrong with being depressed. I am contesting that it is a natural process in said cases. Plato viewed being in a body and alive as a hinderance. Better to be dead and dwelling in the realm of pure reason.

I doubt the word "depression" was used, let alone, known, at those times.

Perhaps some who are thinking of suicide as a way out know something that 'normal' people don't. The old idiom serves to illlustrate, "Ignorance is Bliss." The more people learn I think the more cynical they become. They might be a stage of frivilousness, but it lingers.

Self-destructuve behavior is considered abnormal for a good reason.

Maybe it is worth it to look at the good stuff in life. Maybe, when we see no reasons to live, it is a sign we have to change something around us, instead of taking away our lives from it for good.

If ignorance is bliss, information is power. Either you live with a blindfold all your life or accept that through all the horrors of this world, there is beauty to live for, and that it can make sense, at least for a moment, at least for a time t make you feel that you can belong.

Avoidance of reality is one thing, but death leads nowhere we know, and I am not sure how important it is to hurry to get there...

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by Salty

I attempted suicide when everything in my life was falling apart. I can understand that. Not knowing that things will ever get better is a scary place to be in. Actually lately a series of events has unfolded, and while I am no longer considering suicide, I have had some of the same sorts of feelings as I did when I was suicidal, mainly because I am unsure if I'll feel good again any time soon.

Salty, I am glad you are still with us.

Whatever happened, I hope it won't make you forget the good stuff, and that you will merrily go on with your life, like you deserve.

Peace to you, and take care.

[Salty]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

Salty, I am glad you are still with us.

Whatever happened, I hope it won't make you forget the good stuff, and that you will merrily go on with your life, like you deserve.

Peace to you, and take care.

Well that makes one .

Actually after I attempted suicide I've never since genuinely wanted to. I just lately have had the same feelings of rejection and loneliness that accompanied those desires before. Right now though the question is if everything goes wrong how exactly am I going to keep myself from going into a self destructive downward spiral. And honestly I don't know. I'm not sure how much pain I can take before I just go entirely numb.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by Salty

Well that makes one .

Actually after I attempted suicide I've never since genuinely wanted to. I just lately have had the same feelings of rejection and loneliness that accompanied those desires before. Right now though the question is if everything goes wrong how exactly am I going to keep myself from going into a self destructive downward spiral. And honestly I don't know. I'm not sure how much pain I can take before I just go entirely numb.

Sometimes, its about talking with the right people; those who make us feel good, rather than feel bad. Sometimes it is just as simple as that.

I think I undertand a bit of what you are going through, without being in your shoes though. What I do in similar circumstances is what makes me feel good. Life is just not all about the bad stuff; we have to learn to take the good stuff as well. Sometimes, it is in the most simple things.

Preparing a meal for ourselves, go watch a movie, talk to friends you have not spoke to in a long time. Family. Sometimes it is not easy, and we have to make a supplementary effort. Braking down the problem in tiny pieces and solving the easy ones first is also a nice way to help ourselves.

I do not have the pretention I can resolve everything for you. But I am glad I can may be point to you a nice direction to go to. I know you are a person of Faith. Seeking support amongst the people who share similar beliefs, or appreciate you for your faith is also helpful.

I think the most important is to find people who take you for who you are rather than what they think you should be. Still, they do not need to know everything about you.. So it is up to you to share what can be shared and have them work with you on that.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Salty

Right now though the question is if everything goes wrong how exactly am I going to keep myself from going into a self destructive downward spiral. And honestly I don't know. I'm not sure how much pain I can take before I just go entirely numb.

I've read your comments here. I've read your blog. Both are public record so my advice will be too. You need to chill out, slow down, relax and float for a while. You're too young to be worrying about the stuff you're worrying about. Just keep getting yourself down the gym and keep the goal in your mind of when you're going to meet that gorgeous girl who's gonna be your wife.

And lay off the poetry. That crap's* no good for anyone.

(* poetry in general, not your poetry in particular).

[Salty]

Actually I've been meaning to write something lately I always feel better after I get it all down on paper. And unfortunately the things I am worrying about... are not suddenly going to go away if I wait a while.
As well, the thing that I'm really genuinely scared about isn't even on my blog...

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Salty

And unfortunately the things I am worrying about... are not suddenly going to go away if I wait a while.

Hmmm... I didn't mean so much "wait" as "don't worry". Crap happens. One sometimes has to learn how to float on top of it and see where it takes you. I mean, for all you know what you think is God's plan for you isn't actually His plan for you and this crap is happening because you're fighting too much.

Originally Posted by Salty

As well, the thing that I'm really genuinely scared about isn't even on my blog...

Feel free to PM me with if you want advice. I know you think I'm an a-hole but I'm pretty good with stuff like this.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by Salty

Actually I've been meaning to write something lately I always feel better after I get it all down on paper. And unfortunately the things I am worrying about... are not suddenly going to go away if I wait a while.
As well, the thing that I'm really genuinely scared about isn't even on my blog...

I strongly suggest you keep some of that stuff for yourself, or for the ears of a confident, someone you trust, whatever that is.

To put that in a blog means it will be recorded there for as ong as INternet is. Better be safe and conservative.

Writing is a good idea. Talking helps a lot to.

Anyway, I have to go. Take care Salty. Take good care of yourself.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

What the media reports is one thing. What actually happened in his head is something irrelevant to what we know.



Not at all. Depression is part of life, but as a clinical process, it is self-destructive. Normal, but unpleasant. That is the point. You have loads of normal people walking on the streets who have no idea they suffer from depression. Are they in danger? Not necessarily, but there is a potential, if nothing is done to help them change (either by themselves or through a therapyu os some sort, usually a mix of meds and psychotherapy works well) for aggravation.



I doubt the word "depression" was used, let alone, known, at those times.



Self-destructuve behavior is considered abnormal for a good reason.

Maybe it is worth it to look at the good stuff in life. Maybe, when we see no reasons to live, it is a sign we have to change something around us, instead of taking away our lives from it for good.

If ignorance is bliss, information is power. Either you live with a blindfold all your life or accept that through all the horrors of this world, there is beauty to live for, and that it can make sense, at least for a moment, at least for a time t make you feel that you can belong.

Avoidance of reality is one thing, but death leads nowhere we know, and I am not sure how important it is to hurry to get there...

Pendergast:

I never said the media said anything about why Bradley died. I make that statement based on the years of listening to his music - listening to his lyrics - and researching his life.

As for your approach, I have to commend on the one hand for taking an interest into other peoples situation. On the other, a lot of what you are saying begs many questions and is preloaded with academic brainwashing. What is "good"? What if life does suck? How can anybody argue such a subjective topic and attempt to offer hard fast conclusions? With many exceptions, the cases I am interested in are those with everything going for them and no mental problems.

You say depression is self-descructive. I think everyone on this earth has been depressed, some more than others. Depression is like a catch phrase today. Depression is real and normal. Clinical depression is something else.

This sounds like typical, preloaded advice that really doesn't take into consideration the actual particulars of a person's perspective. Suicide an easy way out? Suicide is every rational mans right. The "good" things in life are worth living for is dated.

My view. Here is a fake story to illustrate. Guy walks into the doctor's office and says, "So, you are telling me I won't get sick anymore? No cancer? No more feeling hungary? No more sadness? I won't have to work? Take care."

[RAILhead]

Meh. I stand by my comments, and I've counseled people for the last 10 years, too. Obviously I was speaking in general, broad sweeping terms -- but any way you slice it, it's still the final wuss-out and sign of personal weakness.

You kill yourself because you have no hope and you have no hope because you couldn't find value in yourself and you couldn't find value in yourself because you didn't try hard enough.

As K said, there's always hope -- but you choose not to seek it out, you're giving up. When you give up, you fail.

[Salty]

So if you've been counselling people with that attitude... how many are dead? I used to get the same line from my sister all the time, until she actually saw me try and break through the ice on our pool.

[macintologist]

I think suicide is a good thing, it reduces the number of emotional irrational chronically-depressed whiny bitches from this earth!

[DeathToWindows]

Originally Posted by freudling

That leads to an idea that there is not necessarily anything wrong with being depressed. I am contesting that it is a natural process in said cases. Plato viewed being in a body and alive as a hinderance. Better to be dead and dwelling in the realm of pure reason.

And, to bring in yet more classical authors, Cicero stated that the Great among the nations would go on to their reward in the Celestial Realms... but cautioned against suicide, saying that the only true way to attain such an awesome reward was to live one's life in the mortal world.

Pliny, in his letter on the suicide of Corellius Rufus, makes the point that removing oneself from the world to escape chronic disease and disablement is an honorable and logical course of action (at least if you're a roman).

However, you have religions that expressedly forbid the taking of one's own life as a sin against the Almighty. Overall, between the varied examples I;ve seen here, I'd be inclined to say that someone who is contemplating suicide may have a logically-defendable reason for such an act, but to the external observer, such an act can never be understood. Suicide, whether as an act of Honor, to relieve pain or to become a Celestial being (vis. Cicero) can never be logical and can never be condoned. Honor can be redeemed outside of death (but that is another thread entirely), pain can be relieved (endorphins and opiates are wonderful things... please don't flame me on this) and Cicero can put up or shut up as far as his celestial spheres are concerned.

Once you develop a bad case of dead, its rather hard to recover from.

[freudling]

RAILhead:

Hope? Sounds like bullshxt. That is crap advice. What do you think people should hope for? What if LIFE SUCKS? What if we are like ants, caught in an evolutionary point in space and time and we are at a point where we are kinda smart but have a much to build upon? What if people like me understand that we are evolving into something much more, and we are just clumbs of matter no different than an ant, save for our minds. What if somebody is not afraid of what happens after they die? What if dying will relieve a person of all the hardships in life?

I am not arguing for suicide either way, just against the reasons posted on here to continue living. Is it out of the question that a stable person would just say screw it and kill themselves? I have family members and friends who have killed themselves. One case from Germany. He was about late 60's, and just decided to kill himself. He figured he lived enough. There wasn't much else and that is that.

You guys have to tell me there is something more than just hope.

[Warung]

Originally Posted by freudling

Is Bradley Nowell a symbol of complete freedom we all want?

I really don't think so. Wanting to commit suicide is very unnatural (think of the lengths all living beings go to to survive...), unless you have some kind of disease or other ailment, which makes ending your life a more desirable option than prolonging the suffering.

I'm just glad that I got to see Sublime live before Bradley died. I was looking forward to many other concerts that would follow...unfortunately, this is not going to happen.

[loki74]

it is most definately not logical.

Explainable, but not logical, and most definately not natural.

[smacintush]

Hope.

Hope is just a word men made up when they couldn't give a real answer.

[loki74]

do you mean to say that in any situation, there is no hope, because it is a ficticious thing made by man?

I would disagree. Technically speaking, I suppose that hope is a probablility that a solution will come for a given problem, especially when that solution is not immediately visible. I do not think that hope in this context is an emotion, but simply a state of being. Something that is either true or not. I do not think that I have never been in a completely hopeless situation. (At least none that would prompt me to consider suicide...)

[smacintush]

Hope is the expectation of "something" to happen in the future, a future that doesn't exist. The "future" is just an idea invented by man, an illusion. There is no future, there is only the present therefore telling someone to have hope is a fallacy.

[freudling]

I think a better way to look at it is, "What do YOU personally have to hope for?" Those things are different for each of us, although categories can be formulated I am sure. I have no idea what anybody else besides myself can hope for and I wouldn't be in the practice of pushing my hopes on other people. Although, stating what you personally hope for might be inspiration.

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by freudling

You guys have to tell me there is something more than just hope.

Hope = something worth living for. It's different for different people, and counseling helps one discover it.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by freudling

You guys have to tell me there is something more than just hope.

There's also breasts.
Kind of hard to play with breasts if you're dead. Therefore, being dead sucks. So don't do it.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by freudling

Pendergast:

I never said the media said anything about why Bradley died. I make that statement based on the years of listening to his music - listening to his lyrics - and researching his life.

As for your approach, I have to commend on the one hand for taking an interest into other peoples situation.

On the other, a lot of what you are saying begs many questions and is preloaded with academic brainwashing. What is "good"? What if life does suck? How can anybody argue such a subjective topic and attempt to offer hard fast conclusions? With many exceptions, the cases I am interested in are those with everything going for them and no mental problems.

I am not sure of that "academic brainwashing". My trainers were people without training in psychology or social work. They were people who had attempted themselves or lost someone they cared for through suicide. Sometimes, life is simpler than we think.

What you say about those "with everything going for them and no mental problems" is pretty weird.

How do you know that person had everything going to his taste? You donn't. You think you know, but you don't. "No mental problems" is easy to say when you watch someone you idealize, idolize. Mental problems are not things you see walk on the sidewalk. People are very good at hiding their problems, especially when they are public figures; they don't want to look bad, especially if it garantees some success, or impression of success, or what they believe, for a time, as being success...

The people in the music and entertainment business are rarely happy, I believe; they start off with this message they want to pass, full of energy, of ambition but mostly of genuine happiness, or hope to get there. Then they get richer, and lose the "real friends" they thought they had. They are also confronted with what marketers tell them to do; it's no longer about music and fun anymore. Now, you have to make "the recipe" go again to get more results; productivity is at stake, or all the exhalaration and bliss of success will go...

Not easy. I doi not know for a fact that it's exactly what this guy died for, but I know for sure he was not in that life that had "everything going".

You say depression is self-descructive. I think everyone on this earth has been depressed, some more than others. Depression is like a catch phrase today. Depression is real and normal. Clinical depression is something else.

Of course there is a distinction; you are right. And yes, it is normal, under some circumstances. But too much of it is not good. A little bit makes one feel queasy, but never "good". I know that is not what you mean, but let's be sure we understand each other on that.

This sounds like typical, preloaded advice that really doesn't take into consideration the actual particulars of a person's perspective.

"Preloaded advice", yes. I don't know the particular of that person, or your for that matters. Please don't blame it on me; you are looking for answers and we respond with what is provided. That's all.

Suicide an easy way out? Suicide is every rational mans right. The "good" things in life are worth living for is dated.

Suicide is rational, and yes, it has its own logic. But it is a perverted logic, as explained earlier. Suicide for excess of happiness happens only in very romantic japanese novels. And happiness is not necessarily happiness. People in denial show as absolutely normal.

A friend of mine told me she had a cousin who suicided a few weeks ago. A very beautiful woman and apparently successful, and bright. She killed herself. Why? In all appearances, she had "everything going". But when you got to know her, she had a life of misery with violence and abuse. She had "everything going"?

My view. Here is a fake story to illustrate. Guy walks into the doctor's office and says, "So, you are telling me I won't get sick anymore? No cancer? No more feeling hungary? No more sadness? I won't have to work? Take care."

"I am happy, so now I can die?"

I am not so sure.

Regarding hope, of course there is more to get from life than hope. Hope is a promise, and not much else.

Life is about belonging and be part of something. People acknowledging your contribution in an friendly, authentic and intimate way. People you talk to and feel there is truthfulness in that relationship. Life is abnout your contribution as a person; your work means something to you and others. You are part of something bigger and complex, and your part is important. It's not like that bully who says yuou are easily replaceable; you really are part of something in a meaningful way.

You have kids, a family, or a substitute of that that makes sense. No, it's not about hope. It's about your hability to do stuff and make yourself belong. It's about hard work, but with a big reward, if you are willing to accept that reward. And it's yours, all yours. No one else's. It's what you do with others that make you feel good and make them feel good.

That's not academic preloaded stuff. It's what life is all about.

[Big Mac]

And this is the right forum in whose universe? Pretty heavy for the regular lounge, no? It really doesn't matter to me, but for the fact that I like things to be done consistently.

In my opinion, suicide is normally neither a cowardly act, as one side asserts, nor is it a virtuous act, as those at the other end of the spectrum (including prominent ancient Greek philosophers) contend. There are, however, exceptions (see below). One who willfully takes his or her own life is drawing on courage to go through with the act. I imagine a large percentage of suicides, possibly a majority, involve chemical imbalances combined with clinical depression. People in those states are not thinking rationally, through little if any fault of their own. They are not operating of their own volition.

The only time I would classify suicide as cowardly would be in the case of multiple half-hearted suicidal attempts and in the case of suicidal terrorism. In the first case, I have a lot of sympathy for those who threaten suicide but cannot go all the way. Their inability to muster the courage is, by definition, cowardly, but at times cowardice is a positive trait. Yet, in the case of suicide bombings, those people are evil cowards. They wish to inflict maximal harm on innocents while not taking responsibility for their acts. They are frightened of noble fights with regular troops on the battlefield. They are the true cowards.

Finally, I would only deem suicide logical if it's a matter of self-sacrifice in order to save others. The passengers of Flight 93 knew they were taking their own lives by overpowering the terrorists, but they did so in order to prevent much greater tragedy. Heartbreakingly heroic and logical.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by freudling

Does the pain and suffering in life overwhelm any good afforded by the continuance of it? As the Greeks acknowledged the hardships inherent, the 'easy' answer being to end it, they dogmatically argued (Socrates, Plato....) that suicide is wrong as it displeases the Gods: the essence of Greek tragedy. Life sucks in the Schopenhauer sense, but keep living it because killing oneself is a sin.

Is Bradley Nowell a symbol of complete freedom we all want?

I think you are grieving someone you cared for a lot. I am sorry this person died. And as explained earlier, I doubt he decided to go simply because there was nothing else to get from life.

Suicide is used as a way to avoid pain, a pain that is so deep that the person going through it feels there is nothing else to be done.

Those people you cite, as philosophers as they were, were also exceptions in their world. People of the fringe. That their writings stayed and has such an impression on us is meaningful, but that's not what life is all about.

Life is about gain and losses, and what we want to gather from this is highly personal. We look at that bottle with some water in it. Say you are thirsty. You can say, that bottle is empty, because my thirst is more than what it can provide. Or you can say, that bottle is almost full of water; I'll drink some and try to make the best of it until later.

Life goes on; we go thrugh some tough experiences, but not all is that hard. There are kids living in the trash that can still manage to smile and play, while there are rich people who are bored to death and can't bare the thought of being inactive for fear of what could happen.

Having "everything going" is a nice tag to put on some appearances. But some people who look desolate sometimes experience more happiness than people loaded with cash who always seem to be pursuing something, but no one knows what exactly, and especially them.

Anyway, I do not have the pretention of changing what you are thinking or believing. I cannot insufflate in you a "Reason to live". There is no "Reason". We make it happen ourselves; we give ourselves reasons to live and people around us help us do that. We make our lives meaningful, and people make that happen too.

It is sad when one is looking for a reason to live. Please take the time to consider the people around you, not necessarily for the pain that would result, but mostly for the reasons why these people would feel the pain from this loss. This is where we belong. This is where you, Brad and everyone belongs.

Cheers, and all the best to you.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

The people in the music and entertainment business are rarely happy, I believe; they start off with this message they want to pass, full of energy, of ambition but mostly of genuine happiness, or hope to get there. Then they get richer, and lose the "real friends" they thought they had. They are also confronted with what marketers tell them to do; it's no longer about music and fun anymore. Now, you have to make "the recipe" go again to get more results; productivity is at stake, or all the exhalaration and bliss of success will go...

In my experience, it depends what they're in it for. If they're in it because they want people to understand their "art" and their "message", then yes, I'd agree. If they're in it for "tits, beer and not having to get a proper job" then I disagree.

[lurkalot]

Originally Posted by Doofy

And lay off the poetry. That crap's* no good for anyone.

(* poetry in general, not your poetry in particular).

Briefly.
Poetry is at the very least an important form of self expression and communication. I don't know why you would make that suggestion, particularly in a thread about suicide. Communication is without a single exception the most important tool in suicide prevention. Why limit it by removing poetry from the ways to think and express thoughts?

Frankly, I can't believe that you seriously believe that poetry is no good for anyone based on your own previous messages. Do you not consider lyrics to be poetry? Surely you recognize the -therapeutical and inspirational- benefits of music?

What about your religious beliefs? Do you not derive some of your most basic guidance from poetry? Is for example Liber AL vel Legis not in verse? How about the Bible? How can you of all people suggest that poetry is no good for anyone? Particularly to someone with an evangelical background. Did I misunderstand you? Did you seriously think that advise through before you offered it?

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by loki74

it is most definately not logical.

Explainable, but not logical, and most definately not natural.

I disagree, it is both logical and natural. Natural, because it was, is and will be a part of human society. Natural, because also animals can commit suicide (by not eating when they grieve over the loss of their mate). Logical, because you can explain it in terms of feelings, causes and influences. If it were illogical there would be no hope to find the causes for that decision.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Doofy

And lay off the poetry. That crap's* no good for anyone.

(* poetry in general, not your poetry in particular).

Non-sense. Different people have different means to express themselves. Music, poetry, faith. Whatever floats your boat.

I find it strange that someone who is faithful (and presumably reads the Bible) does not appreciate poetry. But anyway, different people, different ways.