[Railroader]

I have a Yamaha PA system I would like to hook a Sony camcorder to so I can record the audio output of the PA into the camcorder while filming.

The PA has a 1/4" plug output and the camcorder has a 1/8" jack. The salesman who sold the sound PA to us told us that the signal from the PA output is too "hot" for the input on the camcorder. He said we neeed a "line-out/input level converter" to step down the signal to the camcorder or we'd burn up the sound board on the camcorder. I may not have heard him correctly, but he said we needed a 20-30 decibel reduction going into the camcorder from the PA output.

I tried a google search, but I am not really sure what to even search for. All of my search results include car audio gear and I am pretty sure wouldn't suit my purposes.

Any suggestion for what I need?

[Troll]

I don't think you could possibly fry the camera. You'd just get distortion on the soundtrack if the signal was too hot. That said, I've recorded a few live gigs on video. I've only once ever recorded direct from the PA to the camera and I wouldn't do it again. In that case, the PA had RCA line outs. I just got a good quality RCA to 1/8" cable and hooked them up.

I haven't done it since then for a number of reasons. First, you set up the sound for the room you're in. The room we played in was very bassy so the mix coming off the line out had a lot of treble in it. It sounded very tinny when played back on the camera. I guess the way to get around this would have been to set up a separate mix for the camera, but that's just too much effort imho and it's another thing to worry about on the day. Second, you don't get the ambience of the live gig because the only crowd noise you pick up is through the on stage mics an that's normally quite faint. Third, you can't move very far with the camera because you're plugged into the desk, so you don't get any different angles and you're way back normally. Fourth, things look weird because you are picking up the sound from a different place to the camera. By way of example, you may have someone walk up the camera and say, "These guys bring all their equipment on the bus," and on the video, you'll just see him miming! That's an extreme example, but it can be disturbing when you see the crowd jumping or something happening in front of the camera and you can't hear it. For that reason, I like to keep the soundtrack of the camera available.

The best recordings I've got were done like this. Sony microphone (I think it's an ECMMS907) plugged into a Minidisc recorder with the mic on top of the mixing desk pointed at the stage and set to 120 degrees pickup angle. Because the mic in my camcorder isn't great, I have another one of those Sony mics plugged into the camcorder and mounted on top. If your camcorder has a flash connector, there's a handy Sony clip. Mine doesn't so I just tape it on. Once I also had a second minidisc recording line out off the desk but the mic mix sounded way better so I haven't bothered this since then.

Because everything is recorded digitally, you don't have any problems with tape slippage or things being out of sync. You just import the dv into iMovie. Convert the mini-disc recording to AIFF using any number of solutions and import the AIFF file into Movie. You then sync the two soundtracks up. It's handy to have a reference at the beginning of the tape (a tom hit is quite useful) and the new iMovie has wav patterns which make it even easier. I normally have the mixing desk mix right up and the camera mix in the background panned to one side.

Good luck.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Troll

I don't think you could possibly fry the camera. You'd just get distortion on the soundtrack if the signal was too hot. That said, I've recorded a few live gigs on video. I've only once ever recorded direct from the PA to the camera and I wouldn't do it again. In that case, the PA had RCA line outs. I just got a good quality RCA to 1/8" cable and hooked them up.

I don't want to take the chance of frying the camcorder at all. It is not my camera.

I don't want distortion either.

I'll have to look at the PA, but I am pretty sure I don't have any RCA plugs to connect to.

Originally Posted by Troll

I haven't done it since then for a number of reasons. First, you set up the sound for the room you're in. The room we played in was very bassy so the mix coming off the line out had a lot of treble in it. It sounded very tinny when played back on the camera. I guess the way to get around this would have been to set up a separate mix for the camera, but that's just too much effort imho and it's another thing to worry about on the day. Second, you don't get the ambience of the live gig because the only crowd noise you pick up is through the on stage mics an that's normally quite faint. Third, you can't move very far with the camera because you're plugged into the desk, so you don't get any different angles and you're way back normally. Fourth, things look weird because you are picking up the sound from a different place to the camera. By way of example, you may have someone walk up the camera and say, "These guys bring all their equipment on the bus," and on the video, you'll just see him miming! That's an extreme example, but it can be disturbing when you see the crowd jumping or something happening in front of the camera and you can't hear it. For that reason, I like to keep the soundtrack of the camera available.

The best recordings I've got were done like this. Sony microphone (I think it's an ECMMS907) plugged into a Minidisc recorder with the mic on top of the mixing desk pointed at the stage and set to 120 degrees pickup angle. Because the mic in my camcorder isn't great, I have another one of those Sony mics plugged into the camcorder and mounted on top. If your camcorder has a flash connector, there's a handy Sony clip. Mine doesn't so I just tape it on. Once I also had a second minidisc recording line out off the desk but the mic mix sounded way better so I haven't bothered this since then.

Because everything is recorded digitally, you don't have any problems with tape slippage or things being out of sync. You just import the dv into iMovie. Convert the mini-disc recording to AIFF using any number of solutions and import the AIFF file into Movie. You then sync the two soundtracks up. It's handy to have a reference at the beginning of the tape (a tom hit is quite useful) and the new iMovie has wav patterns which make it even easier. I normally have the mixing desk mix right up and the camera mix in the background panned to one side.

Good luck.

It is not a music gig. It is a presentation-type situation.

The camcorder is too far away from the speaker to pick up the sound and I don't want to pick up the voices of people sitting near the camcorder. I want only to record what is coming out of the PA.

[subego]

The salesperson is telling you to get a 30 dB pad. Though all the ones I've found are XLR, so you'd need the proper adaptors.

This may not be the best solution though. What are the model numbers on the camera and the PA?

Can you get your hands on a mixer? Maybe as a rental?

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Railroader

I'll have to look at the PA, but I am pretty sure I don't have any RCA plugs to connect to.

Most PA's have a line level output on them. I'd be surprised if this one doesn't have one. What's the model of the PA? That way we can check what you might need.

The only Yamaha PA I know is the Stagepas and it has two RCA connectors for a tape deck which you could plug out to the camera. Marked with a tape icon below but normally marked "Rec Out". The RCA to 1/8" connectors are a dime a dozen.

[removed oversize image --tooki]

Originally Posted by Railroader

It is not a music gig. It is a presentation-type situation.

The camcorder is too far away from the speaker to pick up the sound and I don't want to pick up the voices of people sitting near the camcorder. I want only to record what is coming out of the PA.

Ah, okay. That's a lot simpler then. Is the person speaking static behind a lectern or are they moving around? The simplest solution if there isn't a line out on the PA would be to get the mic I mentioned and a mic cable extension. Put the mic on the edge of the stage or on the lectern and run the cable back to the camera. Set the angle to 90 degrees so you focus on the speaker not the audience. Otherwise, a mini disc in his pocket and a litttle lapel mic would work (if you have a mini disc recorder that is).

[subego]

Oh yeah, how far is the camera going to be from the speaker?

[analogika]

Check the camera input - it *should* be a line input, not a mic-level input.

Another option that would allow you to control the output levels directly at the PA would be to hook up the cable to the Auxiliary sends 1 & 2 (assuming the PA has 2 aux sends, which it should).

Turn up the appropriate aux sends on the channels you wish to send to the camera inputs.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by subego

Oh yeah, how far is the camera going to be from the speaker?

About 50-60 feet.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by analogika

Check the camera input - it *should* be a line input, not a mic-level input.

Another option that would allow you to control the output levels directly at the PA would be to hook up the cable to the Auxiliary sends 1 & 2 (assuming the PA has 2 aux sends, which it should).

Turn up the appropriate aux sends on the channels you wish to send to the camera inputs.

I think you might have it here. There are two aux sends. One is used to send the audio signal to an amp and then into the lobby. I will check this out.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by subego

The salesperson is telling you to get a 30 dB pad. Though all the ones I've found are XLR, so you'd need the proper adaptors.

This may not be the best solution though. What are the model numbers on the camera and the PA?

Can you get your hands on a mixer? Maybe as a rental?

I am not sure that's what he suggested. Is that for microphones?

I'll check on the models numbers.

We want a permanent solution.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Troll

Most PA's have a line level output on them. I'd be surprised if this one doesn't have one. What's the model of the PA? That way we can check what you might need.

The only Yamaha PA I know is the Stagepas and it has two RCA connectors for a tape deck which you could plug out to the camera. Marked with a tape icon below but normally marked "Rec Out". The RCA to 1/8" connectors are a dime a dozen.

We are using the line level output to record using an iMac. I'll try to get the model numbers. The tape out RCA connectors are going to a tape deck already. Could I just Y off of them with out getting distortion or other issues?

Originally Posted by Troll

Ah, okay. That's a lot simpler then. Is the person speaking static behind a lectern or are they moving around? The simplest solution if there isn't a line out on the PA would be to get the mic I mentioned and a mic cable extension. Put the mic on the edge of the stage or on the lectern and run the cable back to the camera. Set the angle to 90 degrees so you focus on the speaker not the audience. Otherwise, a mini disc in his pocket and a litttle lapel mic would work (if you have a mini disc recorder that is).

Moving around. Sometimes throughout the room. The speakers are already wearing a wireless lapel mic. But we would also want to record multimedia presentations as well.

[Railroader]

I checked out Yamaha's site. We have the EMX5000 powered mixer. I guess it's not a PA. Sorry for the confusion.



The camcorder is a standard consumer Sony camcoder. Nothing special. It's about 3 years old with firewire.

[Y3a]

Thats easy! The mixer will have several sets of line level outputs. just do a test. Line out of the mixer into the line in(RCA) of the camera. Should have those so you can record a VHS tape into the camera.

BTW- what model / type camera is it?

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Railroader

We are using the line level output to record using an iMac. I'll try to get the model numbers. The tape out RCA connectors are going to a tape deck already. Could I just Y off of them with out getting distortion or other issues?

You shouldn't have any problems Y-ing off that except that you may want to adjust the volume of the signal going to the iMac and that going to the camera.

Does the iMac have a Line Out? If there isn't too much latency, you could go from there to the camera. Actually, if there is latency, you could fix that afterwards.

I don't understand why you're recording using the iMac AND a tape deck. Unless the tape deck is an input??

At the end of the day, using an aux send is probably best.

I have a Sony video camera too and it has both line in and mic inputs, so buying a mic with a long cable is still an option. One that would free you from the mixing desk completely.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Railroader

We are using the line level output to record using an iMac. I'll try to get the model numbers. The tape out RCA connectors are going to a tape deck already. Could I just Y off of them with out getting distortion or other issues?

Everything depends on what the camcorder input is (whether line or microphone). Can you root out the manual and tell us what type of input it is?

[subego]

Originally Posted by Railroader

We have the EMX5000 powered mixer.

Okay. I could see the line level outputs smoking the camera. That would be bad. I'm pretty sure the pad was what the salesperson was talking about. You wouldn't use one on a mic even though they have the XLR connectors. You'd use them for... well, something like this. It would be a pain in the ass to get all the adaptors worked out though.

Since it isn't a PA, a more relevant question is how close you are to the mixer (I asked how close you were to the speaker because I figured the speaker would be near the PA). If you're close enough (say 10 or 20 feet), and can drop $100, I'd get something like a headphone mixer and plug it into the headphone jack of the Yamaha. That'll output a signal close enough to your camcorder input, and you can control your own levels.

edit: Y-ing off the tape deck should work too, though that would mean each would be getting less signal. As it's much cheaper than my recommendation above it's worth testing. It won't harm the camera, that's for sure.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Everything depends on what the camcorder input is (whether line or microphone). Can you root out the manual and tell us what type of input it is?

1/8" is likely to be mic, no?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by subego

1/8" is likely to be mic, no?

Dunno - I'm not up on video cameras. I've got plenty of 1/8" stereo line inputs on gear around here.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by subego

1/8" is likely to be mic, no?

I have a Sony consumer camcorder and it has two 1/8" inputs. One is line level and 1 is mic level.

[subego]

Oops.

[red-faced]

[Y3a]

You 'should' have RCA for line-level sound input. usually Red & White. Then you'd use S-Video in for the picture. At least my Sony is this way. The effects bus off each channel is line level too, and sometimes adjustable too as to be used for monitors on stage etc.

[Doofy]

Let's sum up what we have so far, just for reference...

Stereo tape out at -10: going to tape deck.
Stereo line out at +4 ganged to main fader: going to iMac?
Stereo sub line out at +4 on separate level pot: going nowhere ATM?
Aux 1: going to mono amplifier/speaker in lobby?
Aux 2: unused? (assuming aux 3/4 are in use with internal effects).

[Y3a]

Looks like you can get the audio off the AUX Sends. Seeing the on-line sheet on it from yer link...

[Railroader]

Thanks for your help everyone. I'll let you know what we ended up with after I try a few things suggested on here out. Looks like the free AUX feed or the tape rec out is the way to go. We might use the free AUX out for a monitor, but we rarely use the tape rec out. We are still setting things up. This was the only real unresolved issue we had.