[Cody Dawg]

Okay, WDLove knows this story, but I'm going to share the information with you. It's a dog story.

I do dog rescue a bit. Anyway, last month I had a very well known Australian shepherd kennel sent down a dog that needed a new home for a number of reasons. Really great dog, but he wasn't going to be able to be a show dog and needed a home. He was six months old. As soon as he arrived we could see that he was extremely submissive. He would wet the floor approaching you and cower and was very easily startled. Would run at the slightest noise, cower, wet the floor. He was really wonderful, though. I finally desensitized him and he stopped with this behavior and now it's almost completely gone a month later. I didn't think much about it except, "Wow, he has a really weird personality." After all, he DID come from a really wonderful and reputable kennel. When I asked her why he might act that way she said, "Oh, it's a stage they go through." I found that a bit odd, but okay.

A friend of mine fell in love with the dog and wanted him as a gift for her little son. I wanted to give him to her and family. I called this kennel back up and said, "I know that he only came here because he had a few conformation issues (he wasn't perfect for showing, in other words), but we're wondering if you have another Aussie you'd like to place in a home? No, she really didn't she said. She had long lists of people waiting for her puppies and dogs. The only reason that little male dog (the one we wanted to give to our family friend) was because his ears became slightly askew and he had only one testicle and needed to be neutered.

However, a day later she wrote to me and said that if I was willing to pay the price she would sell me his sister. His sister was/is a gorgeous show dog (you can see her in my signature) and send her down. I asked the price and it was a LOT of money. A LOT. I'm not even going to mention how much it was because it was kind of obscene. But, I really wanted my friend to have the male and I didn't want my children to go without him because he'd turned into such a fantastic dog. They are both blue merles and look a lot alike and my two little boys wouldn't even know the difference between them. As a holiday gift to myself and because I don't spend a lot of money on myself I decided to buy the female to keep her for our family pet. After 7 years of dog rescue and not keeping any of them I finally had found the breed that I am in love with.

Well, she comes down and right away, from the start, I can see that she is MUCH WORSE than the male. Much, much, worse. She cannot approach anyone, not even a child, without urinating out of fear or anxiety. She wouldn't look anyone in the eye. Even if you gave her a dog treat she would wet the floor and then she'd run away and hide. She would even urinate in her dog kennel if you had her in a dog kennel. And men? NO WAY. If any man or teenage boy came within her sights she would whine like crazy, cry and whimper, and bark and growl and run around in circles. One night a teenage boy came to our house and she was very menacing to him. I honestly think she might have bitten him if I hadn't held her back.

It's been two weeks and the submissive and anxiety wetting and shyness has not gotten any better yet. I'm pretty good with dogs and dog training (at one point I was a registered certified dog trainer in my halcyon days) and I know that I'm supposed to take her out to have new experiences, keep her on a leash even when in the house, etc. I've been doing all of that. I've been lavishing all kinds of positive reinforcement - no negative at all even if she soils in the house - and trying to get her to understand that the world is a happy place.

Well, I emailed the breeder and told her what was going on. She said, "Gosh, I can't figure out why she would be like that. Maybe you should get an expert opinion?" I decided to do just that. I got someone from the sheriff's department to come up who works with police dogs, is a certified trainer, and a private consultant and trainer when not doing work for the county. I trust him implicitely.

He came and spent 3 hours at my house yesterday. The minute he pulled up and she saw him she was growling. He spent 3 hours with her and at one point just put her on the lead and left for a long walk with her to a nearby park so that he could evaluate how she acts when with him alone or with people he encountered. Later on he told me that he really wanted to determine if any of her odd behavior changed when not around me because he wanted to rule out that I/we were the cause of it.

At the end of three hours he sat down with me (and she was resting her head on his lap - I was so happy) and told me, to my face, "Your dog has been severely abused at some point." I really didn't quite understand him at first. Then he repeated himself and ticked off about 20 things that made him determine that the dog had serious problems. I said, "Well, she really has just spent her life on a beautiful farm, running around, she had her own huge kennel to live in, so I don't see how that's possible." He repeated his story and said that he is so sure about it that if this were a situation with a dog and it was court-related, he would testify under oath that the dog had been abused.

I said, "Well, she's such a lovely person. The reason we got the first Aussie is because she wanted him to go to a good home. I truly believe she would never abuse her dogs." He said, "I'm not saying that I think this woman abused her or her brother, but I think someone that comes in contact with those dogs, a man, has abused them. No matter where I went with her on the leash she has a distinct marked distrust and dislike of men. Somehow, somewhere, a man has abused this dog and probably the other one that was here since you say he acts the same and probably others that she has."

Now, here is the thing: Do I tell this lady? I kind of sent an email that said, "When you are not home who takes care of your dogs?" She emailed back and said, "My husband or my son do."

He gave me a long 5-page written evaluation and in it he stated that the dog was abused in his professional opinion. I must admit, she does act as if she was. He gave me a lot of tips and hints for dealing with the issues she has, but the point is that it is going to take a while for her to get over it. She may never get over her fear of men. It is extremely severe.

So, do I tell her? She will most certainly be highly offended. It's a surety. I am quite positive that it will ruin our friendship. Also, her father just had a heart attack and is in the hospital on life support. She is a lovely and kind lady and I'm sure she doesn't need the stress. When I emailed her and told her about the problems the dog was experiencing she said, "Oh, I'm just devastated. I am in tears over this. Since she has so many problems why don't you just send her back to me C.O.D. and I'll give you your money back or another puppy when we have one." I truly believe that if the dog has been abused she does not know about it? I'm NOT sending this dog back, either. I love her very much and she is finally becoming more secure. She follows me everywhere and I enjoy taking her places and watching her realize that the world is a really great place. She just learned that she loves the beach the other day - it was wonderful to take her there.

Anyway, any advice is appreciated.

Here she is at the beach behind my house, below. This day was the very first day that she actually ran around the beach and had a great time.

And if you want to see a video of her watching the sun rise over the ocean the other day then click here and select "Free Download" in the list which brings you to the next page - scroll down to where it says "Download-Ticket reserved" and wait for the ticket tdownload appears and then you'll get the link to download it. It's not much, just shaky video (taken on a digital camera and not a digicam), and it's at about 6:00 AM so it's a little darker than I'd like, but you can see her playing on the beach and walking on seashells - and her HUGE hole that she dug on the beach. It's about 44mb.

She's really beautiful and she's getting better and better every day. Yesterday she actually let our friend, a man, walk up to her and pet her. I really love her.

[Spliffdaddy]

While you could likely never prove the abuse took place, personally, I would send her the letter anyway. Odds are pretty good that the breeder is aware of the abuse, but just in case - make her aware.

This isn't exactly a solution to the problem, but it's far better than doing nothing at all.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

While you could likely never prove the abuse took place, personally, I would send her the letter anyway. Odds are pretty good that the breeder is aware of the abuse, but just in case - make her aware.

This isn't exactly a solution to the problem, but it's far better than doing nothing at all.

Agreed Spliff, you've got to do something Cody. I've got an extremely soft-spot for dogs and this kind of thing makes me cringe.

As you know, this is not highly uncommon in places where dogs are held strictly as a commodity. It seems, all too often they're treated like chickens. In this case, with the amount of money the kennel is earning and the reputation she's earned from it, it behooves her to act now. She needs to monitor the situation secretly. She needs to place some type of camera or something to capture what goes on while she's away. If I were you, I'd offer to pay for the equipment in helping her get to the bottom of it. For all we know, there is another possibility she's not even considered. I'd let her know that you have the utmost respect for her, but you are obligated to ensure what you now know is addresssed.

two dogs, same behavior + your own suspicions + professional opinion = must act now.

I'd wager it's the son. He's probably sick and tired of caring after his parents' stinky business.

*edited to include; BTW, beautiful animal Cody. Beautiful. I can see why you've grown so attached to her.

[Volks]

Regardless of whether or not you think the dog is being abused, why don't you say anything about the millions of animals being cruelly abused in animal testing or cruelly slaughtered for meat?

[wdlove]

That is just so sad Cody. You are such a loving and giving person, I know that the dog will improve under you care. I might be easier if you met with the lady in person.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Volks

Regardless of whether or not you think the dog is being abused, why don't you say anything about the millions of animals being cruelly abused in animal testing or cruelly slaughtered for meat?

You're right, before taking up a local matter he's directly involved in; he should change the entire meat industry first.

It's no wonder you people get nowhere with your ideals. You're all over the place.

[Peter]

................

[tooki]

I'd take action. Not only is it inhumane, but it's a hazard. What if one of those abused pups is owned by someone who doesn't know how to reduce those behaviors, and the dog bites someone? Aside from the harm from a bite, what's your potential liability? In this lawyer-crazy country (I assume you're in the US), I could see you being held for negligence for not doing anything about it.

Besides, if the husband or son is abusing the dogs, that's a sign of problems that could result in abuse to humans later on. I think that's something the wife would like to know about, especially if it's her son.

tooki

[DeathToWindows]

Originally Posted by Volks

Regardless of whether or not you think the dog is being abused, why don't you say anything about the millions of animals being cruelly abused in animal testing...

Fine, if you want medicine to go back to the dark ages, go ahead - just don't take me with you. I know too many people who would be dead without the work that has been done on animals for medical purposes.

Think before you run your mouth off.

[Daracle]

I think it is in the best intrest to let your friend know, I am sure she has the kennel because of her love of the dogs and she would want to know if something like this is happening.
I am glad you are making headway though, It will make your bond much much stronger.

[andi*pandi]

I would let her know, and let her know the person who evaluated the dog is a cop. Think of all the other folks out there who will pay top dollar to get a dog with neurosis.

but unless you get the spca or whatnot involved, there's no way to know she actually did anything.

[Cody Dawg]

Everyone - THANK YOU.

I think I will let her know. This lady is nice. I don't want to say anything bad about her. I have questions about the way things are handled that I won't get into, but that's another story.

Volks, I guess you haven't been here long enough to know that I DO say something about ALL abused animals, especially abused animals, such as the JCrew/JCruel.com thread. I also think everyone should boycott Iams dog foods also. See www.iamscruelty.com for information.

Thanks everyone for the advice. I'm afraid to say something to her, but maybe I will now.

[Cody Dawg]

andi*pandi
I would let her know, and let her know the person who evaluated the dog is a cop. Think of all the other folks out there who will pay top dollar to get a dog with neurosis.

andi*pandi, you're always so to the point - I know that you would say it like it is without a second thought and I wish I was like you.

I'm just afraid of alienating her. I don't know why, but I am. You're right - it IS a cop/animal control officer that evaluated her! He said that he would formally investigate her or pay her a visit with his concerns (or ask the corresponding county to) if she was in Florida.

I feel bad because about a week ago her dad suffered an arrhythmia/heart attack and is in the hospital and not doing well and I don't want to upset her further.

Then, again, she keeps saying that it is an age-related phase that all dogs go through, especially Australian shepherds.

Does anyone have any information on that? A fear stage that dogs go through? I would HATE to provide information to her and be totally off-base. I mean, the dog trainer evaluated her and he could be wrong, couldn't he? Then I'd have made insulting and inflammatory allegations and upset her for nothing.

She is really respected in the show world and I would never want to tarnish her reputation publicly. Then, again, ebuddy said that the dog is a commodity - which is what my husband and the animal trainer said - and some kennels see their dogs as merchandise first and as creatures that suffer secondly.

Anyway, thanks for advice.

[wdlove]

I'm willing to chat anytime Cody. Want to be helpful.

[nredman]

Originally Posted by wdlove

I'm willing to chat anytime Cody. Want to be helpful.

[Azzgunther]

Cody-

If your friend is so sensitive that she would be alienated by your stating that two animals have displayed the same strange behavior, perhaps she's not worth it. I don't know your situation in life but I definitely know that, for me, people who are looking to take offense in all things are not worth calling friends.
-Chris

[Cody Dawg]

Well, that's true.

I did what everyone suggested and told her what was said. She said that no one interacts with her dogs except her husband and he loves them as much as she does. She said that he loves to open cans of Alpo and let the dogs run up and surround him and lick the Alpo off of the spoon and that he's been around them for 20+ years. Maybe it is her son? I'm not sure. But, she offered to give all kinds of references of other people that have her puppies and never had a problem. She insists that she thinks it is this dog's personality, period. She insists that she is very shy, apparently, something she was not aware of. She wants me to send her back and let her send another dog down, instead, for our children.

Maybe she is right and it's simply that the dog has extreme anxiety over all kinds of changes.

I appreciate all of your suggestions.

[OreoCookie]

Well, now she's been made aware of a potential problem, a problem that could be bad for her business. If you are sure she is not to blame, then she might start to find out who is.

In either case, you did the right thing.

[Cody Dawg]

Yes, I think you're right, OreoCookie.

I mean, I guess it COULD be a situation of circumstance but both dogs, brother and sister, have fearfulness and anxiety and are afraid of men. That's a weird situation. I guess it's possible it is a genetic thing or a phase? I'm not sure.

Thanks.

[OreoCookie]

Yeah, it really points towards abuse. My family's dog (my parents got it when I was fourteen) was clearly abused as well. We got her from an animal shelter when she was about a year old. Whenever it was raining outside and a male member of our family (my father, my brother or me) took an umbrella to go for a walk with her, she went crazy. But she got over her traumas and she's a healthy, loving dog.

I'm sure you can do the same.

[Cody Dawg]

Who abused the dog? If she doesn't abuse the dog, and I'm sure she doesn't, and she says her husband loves the dogs and rarely interacts with them except to accompany her to the kennel once in a while and feed them treats while waiting for her to feed and water the dogs, then who? It's a weird, odd situation, you know?

[OreoCookie]

I honestly don't know, but I think you did all you can do. I assume she knows a lot about dogs herself and that she cannot sell dogs like those two you have described without ruining her reputation as a kennel. So she has an interest of her own to look into the problem.

All you can do is to try to help the dog you have, it'll be worth it.

[RobOnTheCape]

If she isn't with the dogs 24/7 while someone else has access to the dogs, then she can't know for sure about their safety. The husband can coo and fawn over the dogs all he wants when in her presence, but once she's gone he could lash out all he wants. Son included.

The cop is a pro. He's not just looking at the dog and saying "yea, that dog seems abused". He's evaluating based on years of experience and I'll bet if he listened to her response to your comments when you mentioned - he wouldn't buy it. She may be unaware, she may be the culprit, you never ever know.

They are a commodity and they may be thinking of them in that light (husband/son), but moreover, she's breeding other dogs who must be going through a lot of abuse to show the signs you mentioned, and that is abuse just as horrible as the aimscruelty video you put up. btw, thanks, I had no idea. They just lost another customer of their products. We had been giving our dog high end organic chow, but ending up falling into the aims convenience mode.

Off specific topic here but, here in Boston, and I guess on the the net now is a talk radio guy who occasionally has guests on whom he interviews. Every once in awhile he invites on someone from PETA. Knowing the audience he does this for laughs since the callers will chime in about how bizarre the PETA types are with their extreme views. Perhaps this guy puts them on to get to not only get a laugh, but get the less extreme aspects of PETA's message out. Off air beliefs over on air persona.

At any rate, with the jcruel, aimscruelty site and other similar sites I've had my eyes opened about this and think their is a line for everyone about most topics, and though I still like and chew on beef, poultry and fish, I can see the point these groups make. They surely go over the line(for me) when I hear about animal right for say a mackerel or something, but there is so much institutional abuse which goes on unneccesarily that people need to intervene on the animals behalf.

I've never written letters of protest before, but did just that to J Crew, and now will to aims as well. Emails have much less affect than letters in my opinion, and I feel better about taking about taking out the paper and pen, envelope, stamp etc...

Anyways thanks for bringing your dilemma up and I hope things work out the best for all concerned.

[Cody Dawg]

RobOnTheCape: Your post is awesome. I think you and WDLove should "meet" each other if you haven't already. WDLove, what do you think of his post, eh? for boycotting Iams, Rob.

I think she does care. Today I got an email that a friend of hers who also owns these dogs (Aussies) has a daughter who is a handler and she mentioned having this dog go down to work with her and evaluate her and wonder of wonders, they are here in Florida. She is extremely concerned she said. She also offered send down another puppy/dog in her place, free of charge, one she said that has absolutely no shyness or fear. She said, "You will see that this other dog coming to you will not have any shyness or fear and it should help you feel better about how they are raised." I'm not sure about swapping dogs, except that last night she growled at my toddler when he came over to me (the dog was at my feet sleeping.) So, from that standpoint maybe it is a good idea.

My head is confused, but I feel SO much better knowing that I did lay it all out on the table. Thanks for the props, everyone.

[wdlove]

Hi Cody,

I think that what Rob posted is very well said. I agree with him.

Look forward to contact with you Cody.

[King Bob On The Cob]

My only problem with that anti-Iams site is the fact that it's ran by PETA. I agree, animals should be treated with as much respect as their intelligence allows them to be, but PETA seems to be just too political and seems to have other issues than just animal safety on their minds. I could see them faking some of that stuff to make P&G seem bad to further their "Animals should not be pets" goal.

[Y3a]

The only 'animals' that should be used for testing is the human ones who sit on the board of directors of the cosmetics and drug companies. This places the incentive to make sure it's harmless before any live animal testing is done, not just half-a$$ed guess work.

[Cody Dawg]

The only 'animals' that should be used for testing is the human ones who sit on the board of directors of the cosmetics and drug companies. This places the incentive to make sure it's harmless before any live animal testing is done, not just half-a$$ed guess work.

[wdlove]

It's a very touchy subject. Cosmetic research is on the silly side. When it comes to medical research makes a difference. Most of research in the everyday world involves humans, the best testing is with the intended target of the medication or treatment.

[brapper]

Dogs can't talk for themselves, so go with your gut.
Better to be wrong than to be right and not say anything.