[Cody Dawg]

Link

Miami police announced Monday they will stage random shows of force at hotels, banks and other public places to keep terrorists guessing and remind people to be vigilant.

This is one time the ACLU might just come in handy. I feel like my rights are being violated just reading about it.

[alphasubzero949]

You mean like the time they stationed ANG soldiers at airports with empty M-16s? Yeah, that ought to scare 'em.

[Cody Dawg]

Actually, more like this...

When they actually shot and beat people during a protest a couple of years ago.

[Doofy]

Sorry but if you feel the need to wear a mask to a protest (count 'em there's four in that pic alone) then you're probably going to be up to no good and therefore should be shot with rubber bullets and beaten up. Legitimate protesters don't need masks.

Oh, and read her t-shirt. Roughly translated (in commie speak) that ("global justice") says "I hate America". It's the same the World over - every time that's written anywhere it means "I care for everywhere but my own country". Straight up.

[Cody Dawg]

Sorry, but I disagree.

Do you live in Miami? I live about an hour away. I remember the entire episode like it was yesterday. They staged a PEACEFUL demonstration. They told the cops what they were going to do and the police captain (I think it is the same guy whose son was just arrested by the feds for trying to smuggle in 400 pounds of heroin in NYC) said he was going to pepper spray them and tear gas them. They brought protection.

This is a lot of BS and besides, the point of the thread isn't what happened at the protest above but is about going around like Nazis in Germany demanding ID cards.

Guess I'd better get out my grandfather's yellow Star of David and slap it on.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Do you live in Miami?

No, but I know exactly how these protest groups operate the World over. I know their mindset, I know what they're thinking. Don't be thinking that this protest in Miami was unique or special in some way - it wasn't.

Did you actually see the site you linked to? Ultra-leftist. Why are you linking to stuff like that? We're not losing you to the other side, are we Cody?

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

This is a lot of BS and besides, the point of the thread isn't what happened at the protest above but is about going around like Nazis in Germany demanding ID cards.

Yep. The same is happening here.

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Guess I'd better get out my grandfather's yellow Star of David and slap it on.

Why? You visiting Saudi? (they actually make Jews wear distinguishing clothing in parts of Saudi)

[Doofy]

Burp

[Rolling Bones]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Sorry, but I disagree.

Do you live in Miami? I live about an hour away. I remember the entire episode like it was yesterday. They staged a PEACEFUL demonstration. They told the cops what they were going to do and the police captain (I think it is the same guy whose son was just arrested by the feds for trying to smuggle in 400 pounds of heroin in NYC) said he was going to pepper spray them and tear gas them. They brought protection.

This is a lot of BS and besides, the point of the thread isn't what happened at the protest above but is about going around like Nazis in Germany demanding ID cards.

Guess I'd better get out my grandfather's yellow Star of David and slap it on.

He lives on some small island in the Atlantic Ocean off the coast of Europe.

[Rolling Bones]

fart

[Rolling Bones]

fart

[Rolling Bones]

and again...

[strictlyplaid]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Sorry but if you feel the need to wear a mask to a protest (count 'em there's four in that pic alone) then you're probably going to be up to no good and therefore should be shot with rubber bullets and beaten up. Legitimate protesters don't need masks.

Funny, the woman bleeding isn't wearing one. Hey, if a few innocents get caught in the meat grinder, no biggie right? Oh, wait -- just being at the protest is evidence enough of your "guilt," because YOU HATE FREEDOM.

Originally Posted by Doofy

Oh, and read her t-shirt. Roughly translated (in commie speak) that ("global justice") says "I hate America". It's the same the World over - every time that's written anywhere it means "I care for everywhere but my own country". Straight up.

Yeah, anyone who's not 100% satisfied with the division of wealth and power in the world is a damned communist who hates America. Because loving America requires giving the finger to anyone and everyone else. When did the word "justice" become threatening to the right, anyway?

I often wonder what people like Doofy would be like if they were born in Saudi Arabia...

[JoshuaZ]

Just because you dislike what your country is doing doesn't mean you don't love your country. Shoot, the founding fathers disliked the colonial system of government, but still loved the colonies. Think about it.

If someone in Iraq, say 5 years ago, was all angry about his country doing horrible things doesn't mean he doesn't love his fellow countrymen or what his country.

Just because you disagree doesn't mean you're a commie. The US isn't always right. Just read some US history. We have as much blood on our hands as anyone else.

[Doofy]

You guys might want to actually read what I wrote. This is not a US thing - the exact same thing happens in all western countries.

[Spliffdaddy]

Actually, the woman in the picture is using her 'mask' to soak up the blood from the side of her head (the guy in the white shirt in the background has a similar mask, as does the person beside her). It appears she got some of the 'global justice' she was so urgently seeking.

[macroy]

Lame, knee jerk reaction. If there was any merit in doing this, I'd happily show my ID. It's a small sacrifice to ensure safety and protection. However, as it is now, what good is this going to do? Most intelligence gathering from a homeland security perspective is still unorganized and the local authorities have little resources to correlate their data with.

Bottom line, you'll have little or no effect on capturing terrorists, but will piss off a mighty lot of citizens.

I also like how they want to citizens to be vigilant.... but gave no directions on what to do and what to look for. So now they'll most likely end up getting flooded with calls about nothing.

A waitress will call in some loud mouthed middle-eastern college student because he's stiffing her tip, but will provide great service to the two polite Caucasian guys that have been coming in every morning for the last week, sitting down at the same table, and staring out at a newly constructed building while taking notes.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

It appears she got some of the 'global justice' she was so urgently seeking.

[nath]

Originally Posted by Doofy

You guys might want to actually read what I wrote. This is not a US thing - the exact same thing happens in all western countries.

People protesting against things they disagree with? THE FIENDS!!!!

BTW, whilst wearing masks certainly marks one out as a target, it's understandable given the police tactic in recent years of filming demonstrations (even peaceful ones). Whilst noone should be surprised if wearing a mask invites closer scrutiny, your suggestion that it deserves violent retaliation from the authorities is pretty disgusting.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by nath

Whilst noone should be surprised if wearing a mask invites closer scrutiny, your suggestion that it deserves violent retaliation from the authorities is pretty disgusting.

No, I'm guessing that what they did whilst wearing those masks deserved retaliation. Because you know as well as I do that masked protesters (as opposed to unmasked ones) tend to throw things at the police.

[driven]

I've just never understood the whole point of a protest. Nothing good ever comes out of them except to make the protestors look like extremists.

You can point to many circumstances where the protests have gone horribly wrong:

• Kent State
• Tiananmen square
• Aung San Suu Chi’s many protests in Burma (Myanmar) which have resulted in the squashing of her movement for over a decade.

There must be better, far more effective ways to make your views known. Why people keep using the same techniques that never seemed to have worked in the past almost seems insane.

[nath]

Originally Posted by Doofy

No, I'm guessing that what they did whilst wearing those masks deserved retaliation. Because you know as well as I do that masked protesters (as opposed to unmasked ones) tend to throw things at the police.

No, you're saying that on the balance of probability of what they might do they deserve to be shot. Relevant words in bold.

Originally Posted by Doofy

Sorry but if you feel the need to wear a mask to a protest (count 'em there's four in that pic alone) then you're probably going to be up to no good and therefore should be shot

I don't think people should be shot because they're probably going to do anything.

There is a currently a debate worth having about whether someone should be shot before committing an act - in relation to suicide bombers. However that is not the matter under contention here.

[pueblomi]

Yes, if you're smart enough (or care enough about your body) to wear a gas mask, you "deserve" to be roughed up. You should always trust police, national guard, and army. I learned that when trying to attend classes at Berkeley in the 60s when helicopters gassed students indiscriminately. I had nightmares about running from teargas for years after I graduated

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by nath

No, you're saying that on the balance of probability of what they might do they deserve to be shot. Relevant words in bold.

I don't think people should be shot because they're probably going to do anything.

I'm saying they probably did something, which is probably why they were shot.
I'm not saying they probably would have done something.

The word "probably" is only used because I wasn't actually there on the ground when it happened, so I can only make an educated guess as to what went on. Nothing to do with the protesters' intent.

[IceEnclosure]

Cody, you feel like your rights are being violated when they change the packaging for Frontline® Flea medication.

: \

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by pueblomi

Yes, if you're smart enough (or care enough about your body) to wear a gas mask

Why would you think that you need to take a mask to a peaceful protest? Is it because you have a suspicion that the protest will turn violent? I mean, I'm not wearing a gas mask right now - largely because I have no reason to believe that my actions will cause the police to fire tear gas at me anytime soon.

Originally Posted by pueblomi

I had nightmares about running from teargas for years after I graduated

You sound like a bit of a pussy then. It's not like it was napalm, is it?

[wdlove]

A very tough situation. Criminals and terrorist only understand a show of force.

[xi_hyperon]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure

Cody, you feel like your rights are being violated when they change the packaging for Frontline® Flea medication.

: \

You gonna drop by and wipe off the coffee I just sprayed on my screen?

[xi_hyperon]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure

Cody, you feel like your rights are being violated when they change the packaging for Frontline® Flea medication.

: \

You gonna drop by and wipe off the coffee I just sprayed on my screen?

[nath]

Originally Posted by Doofy

I'm saying they probably did something, which is probably why they were shot.
I'm not saying they probably would have done something.

Rubbish.

Originally Posted by Doofy

Sorry but if you feel the need to wear a mask to a protest (count 'em there's four in that pic alone) then you're probably going to be up to no good and therefore should be shot

The phrase 'going to be' denotes a future event.

[ghporter]

Cody, how is an ID check an "attack?" How are your rights violated by having the police randomly ask people "can I see your ID?" And how are your rights violated by having a visible police presence? I've seen this sort of "show of force" in person; New Orleans a week before Mardi Gras. Lots of uniforms visible, lots of mounted police, and an occasional "excuse me, can I see your ID?" from a VERY polite officer. Considering the crowds, the reputation for rowdiness around Mardi Gras, and the overall atmosphere of "party till you drop," this worked very well.

You should also remember that while most protesters do not make any trouble at all, some do. When the troublemakers push, most times the police respond with containment. It is almost always the protesters that start violence, and usually they do so in a way that makes it hard for the police to tell exactly who it was that got violent. When the officers start moving, peaceful protesters need to cooperate or they risk being seen as agitators who may have been the ones that threw the rocks or whatever that got things ugly.

This is not to say that police officers are always perfect, or even always motivated to do the right thing in this kind of situation, but most are mostly inclined to behave correctly. I have yet to read an account of a major event with protesters that went ugly that did not start with someone in the crowd causing problems. Peaceful protesters do not start problems, but agitators do, and being in this situation and risking having oneself viewed as an agitator is part of the cost of "getting the message out."

[Cody Dawg]

What happens if I don't want to be "ID checked?" I go to jail.

Isn't this a free country?

[Weyland-Yutani]

..to keep terrorists guessing? OK, perhaps they are guessing the answer for "why are they bothering with this ID check because we all have IDs and came into the US legally with visas and everything".

Is this one of the harebrained "feelgood" schemes of local politicians in the States? It is not the act itself I find silly but the aledged motivations.

This is pointless for catching or scaring terrorists. This could be effective against illegal immigration however. Illegal immigrants are a bad thing and should of course all be cought and deported. Problem is the terrorists are legal immigrants or travellers.

cheers

W-Y

[driven]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

What happens if I don't want to be "ID checked?" I go to jail.

Isn't this a free country?

The supreme court already ruled (either this year or last year) that your rights are not being violated if the police ask you for an ID, and you *have to * produce the ID. Failure to do so is sufficient cause for the police to detain you.

That said: I'm sure this will be challenged again and again. I personally could care less who asks to see my ID.

[ambush]

the patriot act sucks.

[Dark Helmet]

Land of the Free

[Cody Dawg]

Land of the Free?

HA HA.

I remember growing up how they used to hold the Soviet Union up as the paramount example of "no rights." Yep. I remember them saying that it was a police state and people could be carted off for just about nothing - or nothing - something even as simple as not being able to produce "papers" - our version of "ID check."

Stalinist Miami. Yep. That's what we need.



This is coming from a guy (the Miami police chief) whose own son was arrested for trying to buy 400 POUNDS of pot to resell.

What a piece of work that guy is. He'll be out of there before you know, just wait and see.

[Dark Helmet]

Ya the terrorists hate America because of their freedom. If that makes Americans feel better thinking that go nuts.

Nobody has pointed out how the US is any more free than Canada or most of Europe.

With all the new security, IDing etc America is becoming the total opposite of free. Guess the terrorists are winning and with just one attack. Smart people.

[Cody Dawg]

With all the new security, IDing etc America is becoming the total opposite of free. Guess the terrorists are winning and with just one attack. Smart people.

Very true. Big

The terrorists ARE winning - we have no rights anymore as a result.

Pretty sick and sad.

[Kevin]

It couldn't be over-reacting.

[ambush]

Kevin's right here.

You should calm down and wait till you have very little rights at all to revolt

[ambush]

deepee

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Very true. Big

The terrorists ARE winning - we have no rights anymore as a result.

Pretty sick and sad.

The US will leave Iraq pressure of public pressure. It will go back to the same old ways and the US will be less free than ever. All cuz of one attack.

[jcadam]

I don't have time to protest. I have a job to do.

[cpt kangarooski]

driven--

The supreme court already ruled (either this year or last year) that your rights are not being violated if the police ask you for an ID, and you *have to * produce the ID. Failure to do so is sufficient cause for the police to detain you.

No, it has to be a Terry Stop first. That's not a significant check on the police, but it is something.

[driven]

Originally Posted by cpt kangarooski

driven--


No, it has to be a Terry Stop first. That's not a significant check on the police, but it is something.

Thanks for elaborating.
What is a "Terry Stop"? (Traffic stop?)

[olePigeon]

Darn it. I thought it was gonna be random attacks on Intelligent Design supporters.

[cpt kangarooski]

Crim Pro isn't my forte, but IIRC this is the gist of it:

Terry Stops take their name from Terry v. Ohio, a Supreme Court case from the late 60's. Basically, if a police officer has a reasonable suspicion that a person is involved in a crime, they can briefly detain them so as to investigate. A minor degree of physical searching is allowed, but it's fairly limited.

Terry Stops are further limited in that the police must have had the reasonable suspicion at the time they begin the stop. Also, they can only stop you and conduct some investigation with regards to the crime they had the reasonable suspicion of to begin with. They can't hold you for long (unless they arrest you, which has its own set of requirements to be constitutional) and the Terry Stop can't really be like a real arrest.

Thus, while the police can ask people to identify themselves in the context of a Terry Stop, there are two limits on this that the Miami PD appears to be poised to run afoul of. First, the request for identification needs to be reasonable in the course of the investigation that the Terry Stop is a part of; if it isn't relevant, the police can't require you to answer. The police cannot just be trying to arrest people for mere nonresponsiveness; there has to be something to justify all this to begin with.

Second, there needs to be justification for a Terry Stop to begin with; that means a reasonable suspicion that the people stopped have some involvement with a crime that has or will occur. Here, the MPD is just showing force. They have no reason to believe that a crime has or will occur, and are not conducting an investigation of it. This means that they have no power to stop people or force them to identify themselves.

As is usual for US counterterrorism measures, it does not stop or deter terrorism one bit, it assists terrorists due to the waste of police resources on useless showboating, it is hostile to civil liberties, and it indicates that government is a greater threat than terrorists as the former is more powerful and pervasive. Why so many people at all levels of government are inclined to not do their jobs, or to do them badly, and to break the duties they have assumed of protecting the liberties of the people, I cannot imagine.

[driven]

Thanks again for the update.

As for the commentary at the end, I'll agree with you whole hog except for the part about government being a greater threat than the terrorists. Until my government begins to massacre people for no cause they are not a greater threat. (And if they did I'll be the first to take up arms against them ... as futile as that may be.) A bigger inconvienience? Absolutely. A greater threat? Nope.

[cpt kangarooski]

Until my government begins to massacre people for no cause they are not a greater threat.

I suspect you're not calculating it the same way. It's not enough to merely look at the harm caused; you must multiply it by the likelihood it will occur. For example, you might die painfully from getting eaten alive by a shark, but it's so unlikely, it's not a significant danger. A less harmful but more likely danger is more worth worrying about (e.g. getting raped if you live in an area with a lot of that sort of crime).

I'm not especially worried about the government engaging in genocide or something, as it would be terrible but seems unlikely. Setting up a police state is not as terrible (though it is still very very bad), but seems much more likely these days. Plus, if there were one, it would impair our ability to resist the government if they did worse things.

And remember, the founders of our country took up arms against the government due to taxation, government intrusion, and lack of participation in the government. There are plenty of good reasons to overthrow governments; it hardly needs to be a life or death struggle.

[driven]

The biggest enemy to modern america is lack of civic involvement, and lack of understanding.

Two things cause problems:
1) Apathy. These folks deserve the government that they get.
2) Ignorance. Voting for someone or something because it's in vogue, because your friend told you it was a good idea, blind allegence to a party without understanding the positions of that party, etc. For these folks I wish there was a way to have some sort of qualification test for voting, if not for the civil rights abuses that such things can cause. <sigh>

"Everyone else's congressman is a no-good crook, but mine is fantastic. I'm going to vote for him again."