[Eug Wanker]

http://inquirer.stanford.edu/2005/jstaffor/woz.html

Do you think that is at all similar to the computer industry, where engineers develop a product and someone else sets the price?

It's very much like that, but sometimes the engineers are - yeah, no, I think it's very similar, very similar. Sometimes the engineers are true artists and really care what they're doing, doing a really great job. Although, I don't know how much I can even say that because the big companies, Microsoft, Apple and AOL, they tend to turn out the crappiest products, you know, software-wise. The ones that have the most bugs, the most items that are supposedly in there but don't work. The most things that are left out because they aren't finished. The most things that are inconsistent with the way they did their last program. I get the worst, worst software almost always from Apple.

You think so?

Oh yeah. I get third-party stuff and it's almost always just better, cleaner and more understandable. It works better and does what you'd expect instead of, you know, buggy things or not what you expect.

[Spliff]

He's at least partially right.

iCal --> sucks
iPhoto --> slow and sucks
Aperture --> apparently it sucks too
Finder --> really f-ing sucks
Pages --> sucks
Mail --> sucks with lots of email messages.

However, I like Safari, iMovie, and iTunes. And Microsoft did a pretty damn good job with Entourage.

[rickey939]

Awesome.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by Spliff

He's at least partially right.

iCal --> sucks
iPhoto --> slow and sucks
Aperture --> apparently it sucks too
Finder --> really f-ing sucks
Pages --> sucks
Mail --> sucks with lots of email messages.

However, I like Safari, iMovie, and iTunes. And Microsoft did a pretty damn good job with Entourage.

I like iCal.
iPhoto is meh. Doesn't suck, but I don't like it enough to use it either. Prior to version 4 it really sucked though I agree.
Aperture - Jury is still out on that one (only one major review out), but it seems the main issue with it is the RAW conversion, and that's a function of the OS. It's the same in Preview and iPhoto too. There are bugs, but hey it's a version 1.0
iMovie - version 3 really sucked for quite some time, but '05 is good.
Mail - works well for me.
Finder - needs work
Pages - I don't use it enough to know but I didn't like it when I tried it first. Slow, and less intuitive than I had hoped.
Keynote - pretty good, especially with 2.0.
Safari - pretty good
GarageBand - Dunno cuz I don't use it much.
iTunes - nice
iDVD - nice, but needs ongoing tweaks. The previous versions inability to work on external drives sucked though.
QuickTime - Full size screen viewing should be free
DVD Player - needs work on its deinterlacer, and scanning settings.

[Spliff]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

I like iCal.

My problem with iCal is it always forgets to remind me of appointments. It'll work for two weeks and then all notifications will stop. Suddenly, three months later, I'll get a bunch of successive notifications for expired appointments.

iCal is senile.

[RAILhead]

iCal - Works perfectly for me.
iPhoto - Been using it since it was released and it manages over 8562 pictures for me just fine.
Aperture - More good reviews than bad reviews.
Finder - Works perfectly for me.
Pages - Use it all the time with no probs.
Mail - Manages my thousands of saved messages quite nicely.

Woz is just another dude, just like anyone else. His opinion and 25¢ can get me a cup of coffee at Wal-Mart.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by Spliff

My problem with iCal is it always forgets to remind me of appointments. It'll work for two weeks and then all notifications will stop. Suddenly, three months later, I'll get a bunch of successive notifications for expired appointments.

iCal is senile.

Oh. I use the iCal Events Dashboard Widget so I guess I don't notice.

BTW, What the...?!?



That's what happens when I double click on the link for my thread.

[lothar56]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Oh. I use the iCal Events Dashboard Widget so I guess I don't notice.

BTW, What the...?!?



That's what happens when I double click on link.

You've hacked the internet!

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

BTW, What the...?!?



That's what happens when I double click on link.

Doesn't work for me on Firefox.

-t

[Eug Wanker]

That was in Safari. Plus maybe because I'm the thread starter I can do that?

However, a couple of seconds after it shows that, it takes me into the thread.

EDIT:

Just tried it in Firefox, and it doesn't do that with that browser.

P.S. For one of my previous messages I edited, the edits don't show up in the thread, but when I do a "Go Advanced" in the editor, they show there. Strange.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

That was in Safari. Plus maybe because I'm the thread starter I can do that.

Duh, I figured. Otherwise, a dream would come true. Changing other people's thread titles ?!?!

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

However, a couple of seconds after it shows that, it takes me into the thread.

So, you can't really edit it because it will go away after a couple of seconds ?

-t

[tooki]

Uh, yeah, that's the title editor in v3.5 of the forums. Double clicking the area around a thread name (that you have the rights to edit) lets you edit, and clicking out of it saves the change.

tooki

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by tooki

Uh, yeah, that's the title editor in v3.5 of the forums. Double clicking the area around a thread name (that you have the rights to edit) lets you edit, and clicking out of it saves the change.

Why does it not work with Firefox ?

-t

[Spliff]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Oh. I use the iCal Events Dashboard Widget so I guess I don't notice.

Thanks for that. I'll give it a try.

[tooki]

Originally Posted by turtle777

Why does it not work with Firefox ?

It does work in FireFox -- I just did it.

tooki

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by tooki

Uh, yeah, that's the title editor in v3.5 of the forums. Double clicking the area around a thread name (that you have the rights to edit) lets you edit, and clicking out of it saves the change.

Strange. It's not working at all for me now, even in Safari.

(It didn't really work for me before either, because that edit box only was there for about 2 seconds - just enough time for me to grab a screenie - before I got sent into the thread.)

[lavar78]

Woz was using hyperbole. Saying that Apple makes the worst products is a good sound byte.

iPhoto is great.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by tooki

It does work in FireFox -- I just did it.

Ok, so what's the secret ?

Any options in the CP that I have to turn on ?
Any special settings in the browser ?

-t

[Demonhood]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Strange. It's not working at all for me now, even in Safari.

because there is a time limit on editing the title of a thread.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Demonhood

because there is a time limit on editing the title of a thread.

Darn. So I have to start a new thread to try it out ?

-t

[wdlove]

Originally Posted by Spliff

He's at least partially right.

iCal --> sucks
iPhoto --> slow and sucks
Aperture --> apparently it sucks too
Finder --> really f-ing sucks
Pages --> sucks
Mail --> sucks with lots of email messages.

However, I like Safari, iMovie, and iTunes. And Microsoft did a pretty damn good job with Entourage.

So if I'm using Entourage, you would recommend to continue and not switch to Mail? I always thought that the compatibility would be better.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by wdlove

So if I'm using Entourage, you would recommend to continue and not switch to Mail? I always thought that the compatibility would be better.

Nah, I pulled the Entourage plunge when Tiger came out. Would never go back.
Yes, Entourage has some features that mail doesn't, but's I'm not really missing any.

I haven't noticed that Mail sucks with loads of mail. What is loads ? 20 per day ? 100 per day ? I dunno.

-t

[Anand]

Originally Posted by Spliff

He's at least partially right.

iCal --> sucks
iPhoto --> slow and sucks
Aperture --> apparently it sucks too
Finder --> really f-ing sucks
Pages --> sucks
Mail --> sucks with lots of email messages.

However, I like Safari, iMovie, and iTunes. And Microsoft did a pretty damn good job with Entourage.

Entourage? You got to be kidding me.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Spliff

He's at least partially right.

iCal --> sucks

I've always wanted a free calender app that lets me set appt and have it warn me at a certain time before. That is all I need. iCal is great for this (esp since it syncs with my iPod)

iPhoto --> slow and sucks

The only thing I use iPhoto for is importing pics from my camera, and storing the original photos. And it works great for that. Not slow at all.

Finder --> really f-ing sucks

There are some gui inconsistancies that need fixed. AKA they need to stick with a GUI. But other than that..

Pages --> sucks

For a professional layout program? Yes. For basic home use stuff, you know what it was made for? It's fine.

Mail --> sucks with lots of email messages.

Gots tons of email messages. No problems with mail. I love it. Reminds me of Claris Em@iler.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Spliff

My problem with iCal is it always forgets to remind me of appointments. It'll work for two weeks and then all notifications will stop. Suddenly, three months later, I'll get a bunch of successive notifications for expired appointments.

iCal is senile.

iCal doesn't do that for me.. odd. Wonder if it's your settings?

[goMac]

I actually used to use Entourage for my mail, but it choked when my Inbox got huge. I switched to Mail and never looked back.

[Rolling Bones]

I think third party mac software may be better because the author doesn't have Steve jobs looking over his shoulder.

"Take that out, put that in, that looks too much like everything else...give it a different GUI. I know it's not supposed to be for that but add it and see if it works...etc., and call it iSometing instead of CoolThing"

"For crissake do I have to fire you at Christmas time Cratchit!"

[Doofy]

Let's not forget that the operating system is now completely poop in places. Like memory management - there's a lot more gasping for page files under 10.4 than under 10.2 whilst doing exactly the same thing with the same files if you've only got a Gb.
Apple are becoming sloppy. I guess it's all about the iPods now.

[tooki]

I, too, like Entourage a lot.

tooki

[gradient]

Originally Posted by Spliff

Mail --> sucks with lots of email messages.

What do you mean by that, exactly? I haven't ever had a problem with Mail in any way and I LOVE the bounceback feature (not sure if entourage has that).

[Kerrigan]

My enthusiasm for Apple software has been tempered by a long string of disappointing releases after the switch to OSX.

In a lot of Apple software, heavy gloss and rigid symmetry take away from intuitive design and software responsiveness. And what I'll never forget is how, for years, Apple churned out utter crap, where it would take ages for windows to re-size, and little animations would grind the system to a halt.

Also Apple has this puritanical tendency to hang onto strange, pointless things. Like why is there still no maximize button in the Mac OS? Why do I click a green plus sign to have my window shrink down to some size which I don't want?

Lately Apple has been more responsive to peoples' wishes, for example they have added video-playback to iTunes, but many people on this forum have pointed out how shoddy this implementation is.

Like Woz said, third party software for the Mac is top notch, and I stay away from a lot of Apple's offerings simply because they are bad.

[MOTHERWELL]

Aperature needs a lot of work
Motion needs a lot of work
Compressor needs somework
QMaster is worthless.
Automator is worthless.


At least my AAPL stock isn't worthless.

[Weyland-Yutani]

I agree with Woz. He's not pointing out a big secret. Big software companies have been adapting the release style mastered by Microsoft and made them the largest, richest and most powerful software company in the world. Namely make the users beta test for you and if at all possible make them pay for the bugfixes/updates.

»iCal» takes up a lot of screen real estate but if properly set up works as advertised. Could be better, could be faster, but without major bugs. iCal is at version 2 and has been out for almost 4 years. It was quite slow and buggy when released. I would recommend Entourage over iCal though because it is better. Note that I loathe Microsoft and its products, but in the end Entourage is better than iCal

»iPhoto» Version 5 works as advertised. You'll always need a fast Mac for lots of photos, but it works and not unfairly slowly. iPhoto is also a almost 4 year old product and has seen three major updates (at least). Now, only with the last version it works as advertised. There is no 3rd party app that I can recommend over iPhoto

»Aperture» Is at version 1 and has few features and many bugs. Some bigger than others. It has much potential and the most severe bugs will be fixed in a .1 release by Apple. People pay money for this piece of software after all. However as Woz points out it is as crappy a release as can be expected from Apple or any other major software developer. There is nothing quite like Aperture but some combination of Photoshop and plugins could do the trick although for more money

»iMovie» was until version 5 a rather crappy carbon app. This is no longer the case and iMovie has had a nice face-lift and code clean. It is also HD capable which is really nice for an amateur app. But iMovie has been with us since 1999, almost 7 years and only now in the latest version can one claim with all honesty that it works ok. There is no competition with iMovie for Mac users, but it took Apple six years of public beta testing

»Mail» is one of the star apps that Apple makes. It has been good from the very first version and keeps getting better. There is another exception that I can think of but Mail is very good. Always has been. It is no coincidence that Mail has always been a star on stage with Steve at keynotes. This app proves that apps can be released well tested and without major bugs as long as it is desired. It is more expensive, of course

»Finder» is an abandoned child. It is the only app that Apple has not really had in "open beta" like so much other software. Apple has gotten a mountain of bug reports, feature requests but instead of updating the Finder it has just been in maintainance mode. It looks like Apple will never update the Finder or completely rewrite it - if it were in the grace of Steve then it would not have seen the neglegence it has

»Pages» has a good potential, few bugs but no major features. It is a TextEdit with more flexibility and power but just not enough to be a worthy companion to Keynote. This app feels like Apple didn't really know whom they were writing it for and they are still pushing Appleworks..

»Keynote» is the other app Apple has made that was damn good right at version 1. Perhaps because it was made for Steve Jobs himself and had a long history from NeXT. Even at version 1 it was a mature app. If only Apple made more apps like Keynote then they wouldn't deserve comments like the one from Woz, who is a big Apple fan

»Safari» was an ambitious project right from the start but making a browser is a long process. In this case it is completely forgiveable that Apple didn't have a completely solid app at launch. It has take the Mozilla foundation many many years to make their browser work and they are really devoted. Safari has had major bugs like memory leaks, animated gif slowdowns etc. but it is good only couple of years after launch. IE still sucks.

»GarageBand» is a sequencer "lite". Good for the very amateur but then that is exactly what it is supposed to be. It is on the slower side and a resource hog but these kind of apps are. I like Garage Band, but as so often it took an entire year of "public beta testing" to get it right.

»iTunes» was good to begin with but then it was based on a mature app, Sound Jam. Since it wasn't written completely from scratch and with experienced people from C&G they made a solid 1.0 but only at 2.0 was it indisputably the best jukebox software out there. Today it still is the best but Apple has been bloating it with everything but new and improved features for playback. Very Microsoftish of them but understandable. How long did iTunes 5 exist?

»iDVD» is an app that was severely limited at 1.0 but has been slowly gaining momentum. Very limited to begin with but interesting enough to use. I assume Apple had already planned feature implementation in later versions when they shipped iDVD 1.0 This is not a criticism of the app, it worked very well with the features it had from 1.0 - Apple tied it to internal DVD burners to begin with which was very Apple of them. Not even MS would have dared to pull that kind of stunt

»QuickTime» is an old old project, which has seen many iterations and updates. Today, besides being the multimedia layer in OS X, it is a glorified movie player. It isn't very good, but it looks good. It isn't a bad app, but Apple doesn't seem to know where they want to take QT. It feels a bit lost although compared to the Finder it is on a clear course

»DVD Player» has become a good app, but like many other apps before and after it from Apple, it took 3 or 4 revisions to make it so. The users did the serious beta testing and feedback providing and Apple did with that as they pleased. Resulted in a fine DVD player, but with room for improvement. I do like it as it is, but that is not the point. The point and the criticism is that almost every single app takes at least one major revision before it works as it should.

This kind of development is nothing to be proud of. This would never work in hardware for obvious reasons. Even if it is possible in software it shouldn't be condoned by Apple. They should make the absolute best software they can and put all the effort they can to make an insanely great product. That's the Apple we know and love

cheers

W-Y

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Also Apple has this puritanical tendency to hang onto strange, pointless things. Like why is there still no maximize button in the Mac OS? Why do I click a green plus sign to have my window shrink down to some size which I don't want?

Because "maximize" is a strange, pointless thing.

The green button is supposed to make the window as large as it needs to be to display its contents.

Since the entire Mac OS is based upon drag-and-drop, the Windows-like full-screen standard view, where a window containing a single 400x400 jpg will block the entire screen, is at the least "strange and pointless", and at worst, complete idiocy.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Let's not forget that the operating system is now completely poop in places. Like memory management - there's a lot more gasping for page files under 10.4 than under 10.2 whilst doing exactly the same thing with the same files if you've only got a Gb.
Apple are becoming sloppy. I guess it's all about the iPods now.

Odd.

Over here, Logic seems to run a *lot* better under 10.4 than under 10.2.

[analogika]

btw, from the woz interview:

s it difficult having started this phenomenon of a company any maybe not agreeing with some of its decisions?

Oh no, I agree with it so much. There's just a few areas that are my own values cause me to be a perfectionist, but I do not go criticizing Apple very much at all. I mean, no, I love every part of the Apple world. You can look with your eyes and just see that it always has - every version of Macintosh, including the PowerBooks - the most beautiful product quality and they generally tend to lead the others in terms of qualities you like -- thinness, size of screen, pixels on the screen. The whole world of Apple works together.

[demograph68]

I bet the idiocy is more noticeable on one of them 30" screens.

[demograph68]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

»iTunes» was good to begin with but then it was based on a mature app, Sound Jam. Since it wasn't written completely from scratch and with experienced people from C&G they made a solid 1.0 but only at 2.0 was it indisputably the best jukebox software out there. Today it still is the best but Apple has been bloating it with everything but new and improved features for playback. Very Microsoftish of them but understandable. How long did iTunes 5 exist?

Which is why I have stuck with 4.8

[analogika]

Originally Posted by demograph68

I bet the idiocy is more noticeable on one of them 30" screens.

You can always tell the windows switchers at the store...they're the ones running iTunes in a full-screen window on the 30-incher. Seriously.


Two things I tell every switcher who comes into the store:

a) get used to things being straightforward-simple and stop looking for a complicated way to do things.

b) forget full-screen mode.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by analogika

Odd.

Over here, Logic seems to run a *lot* better under 10.4 than under 10.2.

Yeah, I'm not talking Logic though (I'm on hardware sequencers). It's mainly when switching from Preview to Safari - I can literally wait for five minutes for Safari to gain enough memory to load the simplest page. The page file I/O indicators in Top go mental.
Apple's way of telling me I need another 7 Gb.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Yeah, I'm not talking Logic though (I'm on hardware sequencers).

MPCs or the good ol' Forat Linn 9000?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by analogika

MPCs or the good ol' Forat Linn 9000?

MCs! Always seemed to get on with them better than the ASQ/MPC jobbies. Thinking of switching over to MPCs sometime in next year or two though now I got some time to kill and learn a new OS properly.

[strictlyplaid]

Originally Posted by analogika

b) forget full-screen mode.

I think that's more of a function of having a gigantic screen than owning a Mac. My mac-owning friends all resize the windows they use (manually) to be full-screen because they're using 15" Powerbooks or 12" iBooks. Conversely, a Windows guy I know with dual LCDs (one 19", one 17" I think) does not do full screen mode.

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by analogika

Because "maximize" is a strange, pointless thing.

If you have to explain something that should be intuitive, then something is wrong. On my laptop, I do not like having lots of windows layered upon each other, because this clutters up the screen. Maximizing makes sense because it gets all of the other stuff out of sight temporarily, and it can be done in a split second.

This is very similar to the whole one-button mouse argument. Despite all of the interesting arguments to the contrary, the average user still does not find control-clicking to be useful. The same goes for resizing windows.

[- - e r i k - -]

Address Book - Keeps all my addresses nice and synchronized. Well integrated with mail. Lots of neat touches like BT-SMSing and big telephone display.

Aperture - Useless for me right now. Crippling bugs, poor RAW-conversion but loads of potential.

Chess - Tough bastard to beat

Compressor - No issues with it. It's a workhorse app.

Dashboard - Has quickly become indispensable. Some awesome widgets out there. I use the conversion widget ALL the time. Saved me from having Calculator in the dock.

Dictionary - The hidden gem of Tiger. Map it to F8 and set it to display as a popup.

DVD Player - It does its job (like it should).

DVD Studio Pro - Just awesome for DVD-creation. Good interface and easy to learn.

Final Cut Pro - Oh my. Video editing perfection. I cringe when I have to use Avid.

Finder - Okayish. I can tolerate it. Some hate it with a passion. I do love columns view though.

FrontRow - Very slick, but needs to be a lot more customizable.

GarageBand - Perfect sequencer/loop-app for hobby and pro musicians alike (albeit as a musical "note-taking" app). It is possible to create very professional sounding music with it, having done so myself. A bit too resource-heavy though.

iCal - I use it. That's about as much I can say about it. Looks slick (especially with UNO) and works relatively well.

iChat - Never use it. I know very few who uses AIM or iChat. It looks good, albeit a bit "chunky". Video-conferencing for normal people hasn't taken off for a reason. The only people who have a use for it is perverts. (And I do have an iSight).

iDVD - Haven't really tried it, but looks slick and easy.

iMovie - Tried it some time (and versions) ago. Horrible if you are used to FCP, probably the best thing since sliced bread if you are an amateur.

iSync - Horribly botched in Tiger. Why did they split it up? Why do I need the app open to make the menu item work with my cellphone AND .Mac?

iTunes - Best media player ever. No need to discuss that even. Some small annoyances: No easy way to choose format to convert to (have to switch back and forth between Advanced Preferences and the app), the video section plays one video and then stops (not behaving like a playlist) and I sorely wish for a universal iTMS someday. *sigh*

Keynote - Superb presentation app. Awesome eye-candy and simplicity in one great package.

LiveType - Although it's sort of integrated in Motion now, I still use it for quick text-effects. Always awesome

Logic - Had not much time to look at it, but my musician friend who switched from GB is absolutely head over heels in love with it.

Mail - Best mail app ever. From Smart Mailboxes to the absurdly smart spam-filter to the interface. It's just perfect.

Motion - Makes it very easy to provide eye-catching visuals. For more keyframe-based type of work I still prefer AfterEffects.

Pages - Awesome app. Makes even the mundane school report look good. Has great potential.

PhotoBooth - Cheesy.

Preview - For just viewing PDFs I vastly prefer it to the bloat of Acrobat.

QuickTime Player - Alright I guess. With proper codecs it works fine most of the time. Wish it had a playlist though.

Safari - The best web browser hands down. Fast. Reliable. Extensible. And it integrates with the OS like only Apple apps seem to do. Not to mention the awesome cutting edge CSS-support.

Shake - Have just caught a glimpse of the previous version. Seems like a steep learning curve, but probably a nice tool for people who know how to work it.

Sherlock - Dead and buried.

System Preferences - Well organized.

TextEdit - All round good basic text tool.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

I agree with Woz. He's not pointing out a big secret. Big software companies have been adapting the release style mastered by Microsoft and made them the largest, richest and most powerful software company in the world. Namely make the users beta test for you and if at all possible make them pay for the bugfixes/updates.

»iMovie» was until version 5 a rather crappy carbon app. This is no longer the case and iMovie has had a nice face-lift and code clean. It is also HD capable which is really nice for an amateur app. But iMovie has been with us since 1999, almost 7 years and only now in the latest version can one claim with all honesty that it works ok. There is no competition with iMovie for Mac users, but it took Apple six years of public beta testing

iMovie 2.0 was excellent. iMovie 3.0 looked good but was slow as dirt. iMovie 4 and 5 are excellent.

»Pages» has a good potential, few bugs but no major features. It is a TextEdit with more flexibility and power but just not enough to be a worthy companion to Keynote. This app feels like Apple didn't really know whom they were writing it for and they are still pushing Appleworks..

Pages is on its way. It's a good little word processor that borrows tricks from Keynote, useful as a very light InDesign. Beats the snot out of AppleWorks, but lacks the database and spreadsheet functions, so gotta keep AppleWorks alive for those.

»Keynote» is the other app Apple has made that was damn good right at version 1. Perhaps because it was made for Steve Jobs himself and had a long history from NeXT. Even at version 1 it was a mature app. If only Apple made more apps like Keynote then they wouldn't deserve comments like the one from Woz, who is a big Apple fan

Keynote 1 was excellent. Keynote 2 is so-so. See http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/20...9/18/Apple-XML for why.

»iTunes» was good to begin with but then it was based on a mature app, Sound Jam. Since it wasn't written completely from scratch and with experienced people from C&G they made a solid 1.0 but only at 2.0 was it indisputably the best jukebox software out there. Today it still is the best but Apple has been bloating it with everything but new and improved features for playback. Very Microsoftish of them but understandable. How long did iTunes 5 exist?

iTunes coulda been Audion. http://panic.com/extras/audionstory/

[demograph68]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

If you have to explain something that should be intuitive, then something is wrong. On my laptop, I do not like having lots of windows layered upon each other, because this clutters up the screen. Maximizing makes sense because it gets all of the other stuff out of sight temporarily, and it can be done in a split second.

This is very similar to the whole one-button mouse argument. Despite all of the interesting arguments to the contrary, the average user still does not find control-clicking to be useful. The same goes for resizing windows.

O...M...G, you should really check out Exposé.

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by demograph68

O...M...G, you should really check out Exposé.

Expose increases the feeling of clutter, and it doesn't let you focus on just one window of one app.

I'm beginning to think that Mac users are just disorganized people, with no concepts of practicality or efficiency.

[demograph68]

Compared to the other side, we're more disorganized? Yeah right. Why can't you just hide the other stuff? Say you're in safari but want everything else not showing... just hide others.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

If you have to explain something that should be intuitive, then something is wrong. On my laptop, I do not like having lots of windows layered upon each other, because this clutters up the screen. Maximizing makes sense because it gets all of the other stuff out of sight temporarily, and it can be done in a split second.

This is very similar to the whole one-button mouse argument. Despite all of the interesting arguments to the contrary, the average user still does not find control-clicking to be useful. The same goes for resizing windows.

Yes, it is EXACTLY the one-button mouse argument:

Stop confusing "intuitive" with "habit".

There is nothing "intuitive" about having a single paragraph of text block out an entire 1280 x 852 screen, any more than a single sheet of paper will completely block out the rest of my desk.

Neither do I expect a web browser or a music player to block my view of the iChat buddy list, any more than a minidisc player on my desk will obscure the magazine I might be reading at the same time.

And despite what you may think, drag-and-drop IS intuitive, and that only works with layered, non-obscured windows, a.k.a. "clutter". (Yes it now works with Exposé and across Apple-Tab, but that, though being spectacularly useful, is not particularly intuitive."