[Cody Dawg]

Was wondering if any MacNNers are affected by the NYC transit strike and if so, how it will change your daily routine.

What a bummer to have this happen during holiday rush.

[starman]

Personally, no, but a co-worker is. The 4-person requirement's a problem.

[production_coordinator]

IMHO, it's no coincidence that it's happening during the holiday rush. Perhaps they are taking a few tips from the Pennsylvania Turnpike workers.

The Pennsylvania Turnpike workers just so happened to strike on Wednesday, November 24, at 4 a.m... what an unusual day to pick to strike (the day before Thanksgiving... one of the most heavily traveled days on the turnpike)... don't you think?

[MaxPower2k3]

I'm not, (1 block from school and 3 blocks from work) but my class this morning was delayed an hour to give people more time to get there. It sucks, though, because I ride the subway pretty rarely but I actually was planning to go to Brooklyn today. Guess that's probably not so likely anymore...

[rickey939]

Originally Posted by starman

Personally, no, but a co-worker is. The 4-person requirement's a problem.

Just place some dummies in the backseat...

[Gator Lager]

Originally Posted by rickey939

Just place some dummies in the backseat...

you want to drive around with your vehicle back seat full of
politicians.

[Krusty]

I don't live anywhere near NYC but was planning to go for a few days over New Year's. This could really increase the hassle and expense of getting around there those few days. I'll have to decide soon whether or not to cancel my trip

Of course, I'm not pissed because my reason for going was pleasure rather than business and I have absolutely no idea about the history of the negotiations or the situation of the striking workers. Maybe they have a case ... and you can't force people to work if they are opposed to the conditions of their work. You can reach an agreement with them or replace them ... and I doubt the replacement option is realistic in the near term.

[Dork.]

I just left the area yesterday, I was down there for the family christmas party. I'm glad they chose to hold off until I left!

Talking with my family about the strike, they think that the Union's demands over their pensions were a little unrealistic, since no private employees have the pensions and benefits that these MTA employees do anymore, and they need to come to terms with the fact that that needs to change. But they (my family) have no affinity towards the MTA side either, who claim they need to raise fares and tolls to make the budget solvent, then give all the executives raises when the surplus rolls in.

Just over the one weekend visiting family, I paid $16 in tolls. More than that, if you count the Tappan Zee and Thruway tolls on the trip from Rochester. Is it really worth $4.50 ($4.00 with EZ-Pass, whee!) for the pleasure of going from the Bronx to Queens?

FWIW, strikes by public transit employees are illegal in NY State, and each striker is subject to a fine equal to two days' pay for every day on strike. Plus, the Mayor has a big fat lawsuit against the union seeking more damages which double every day. I think it won't last more than a day or two, myself.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

i'm hoooomeeee!!!


we're working on plans to get into mahatten tomorrow but right now, i finished my jobs dues yesterday so i can relax!

[cmeisenzahl]

Lmao! ;-)

[wdlove]

Not affected at all.

[turtle777]

Nope.

-t

[Mrjinglesusa]

I think they should all be FIRED. Just like Reagan fired the Air Traffic Controllers who went on strike back in 1981.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

I think they should all be FIRED. Just like Reagan fired the Air Traffic Controllers who went on strike back in 1981.

Yeah, great thought.
That would restore order immediatelly.

-t

[Timo]

Yes, I'm affected. Google says I have a 3.8 mile walk to work. Working from home today.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally Posted by turtle777

Yeah, great thought.
That would restore order immediatelly.

-t

It won't be any worse than New York City having no mass transit and businesses losing millions of dollars every day the strike continues.

Fire them all and find people qualified to do their jobs. Shouldn't be too difficult.

[andreas_g4]

I don't think it will affect me. Not sure though.

[pathogen]

Originally Posted by Apple Pro Underwear

i'm hoooomeeee!!!


we're working on plans to get into mahatten tomorrow but right now, i finished my jobs dues yesterday so i can relax!

Me too! Except for the plans to go in tomorrow... I'm staying put in Brooklyn until this thing is over. Until christmas, that is. I'll drive out through Queens to the Bronx to Massachusetts on Friday night to get home to family if Manhattan is still FUBAR'd.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

It won't be any worse than New York City having no mass transit and businesses losing millions of dollars every day the strike continues.

Fire them all and find people qualified to do their jobs. Shouldn't be too difficult.

Mwahahaha. You are an idiot.. Glad you don't run the MTA.

The strike is gonna last a couple of days. That's it. Everything returns to normal.
If you fire all of them, how long do you think will it take to get back to normal operations ?



-t

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally Posted by turtle777

Mwahahaha. You are an idiot.. Glad you don't run the MTA.

The strike is gonna last a couple of days. That's it. Everything returns to normal.
If you fire all of them, how long do you think will it take to get back to normal operations ?



-t

That's what people thought when Reagan fired all of the air traffic controllers who went on an illegal strike. Guess what? It worked out just fine and his decision was highly regarded by most of America at the time. This is no different. The MTA union is holding New York hostage by staging an illegal strike. There are plenty of people out there more than qualified to do perform the duties of the people on strike.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

There are plenty of people out there more than qualified to do perform the duties of the people on strike.

I doubt the "qualified" would work for THAT wage, otherwise, why don't they ?

Strikes shouldn't be illegal. If the employees feel they deserve more money, ok.
And if you really had to fire them and get better qualified people for cheaper, so be it. It's a free market.

-t

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally Posted by turtle777

I doubt the "qualified" would work for THAT wage, otherwise, why don't they ?

-t

They already do. That's the whole point. They want MORE money (24% raise over 3 years) and they want full pensions at 55 years old, among other things. They are being greddy and holding all of New York commuters "hostage" to get what they want - despite an injunction barring them from going on strike.

Originally Posted by turtle777

Strikes shouldn't be illegal. If the employees feel they deserve more money, ok.

Strikes in general are not illegal. This one is - it is in violation of the Taylor Law and a judge ordered an injunction last week barring them from striking.

The strike defies the Taylor Law, which forbids public employees from walking off the job. The law imposes a fine of two days' pay for each day of an illegal strike.

In addition, the union could be fined millions of dollars a day.

The union and the more than 30,000 members of Local 100 also risk contempt for defying a court injunction last week barring the strike.

That's from CNN.com. Anyway, I'm done arguing with you about this since it is clear that you have no idea what you are talking about and know little to nothing about the situation or it's economic impact on the city of New York.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by turtle777

I doubt the "qualified" would work for THAT wage, otherwise, why don't they ?

Although I'm sure training is necessary, I don't think the job is that difficult. Wasn't there a fellow a while back who snuck into an MTA facility and stole a train operator's uniform, found an available shift, and drove a train (perfectly, IIRC) down the entire length of the line before the cops got him?

Driving buses around the city is probably more difficult than driving a train, but if the MTA wanted to fire the whole lot of 'em and give replacements a ...ahem... crash training course, they would probably have service back to normal in a week's time.

And this strike is illegal because so many people depend on the mass transit system in NYC, and buisness is bound to go down, which is bad for business and tax revenue. A strike will clog up the roads and make it more difficult for emergency vehicles to get around. I'm not saying it's totally unjustified, but it's much more disruptive to everyone else then when other types of workers go on strike. (also, whoever the idiot was that thought it would be a good idea to make a union contract expire in December should have been shot long ago. But he probably got promoted instead.)

Also, even though I think it's only going to last a few days, nobody has set a time limit on this. This isn't like strikes in Europe, which seem like a "slowdown" for a day or two, then things get back to normal. The last strike in 1980 lasted a week and a half.

[paul w]

YES, my social life is greatly affected. My ability to go out drinking with my friends has been severely compromised.

Thankfully I don't live or work in one of the the outer borroughs. I really feel for those people. I have a good friend in Flushing, another in the Brox. They are really screwed.

I think it's unfortunate that as usual, this strikes seems to be hitting the "lower classes" the hardest - precisely the demographic of the transit union.


By the way I've been through several of these in Paris. One lasted like 3 weeks!

[Athens]

A few years ago Vancouver had a strike that lasted 2 months in the summer. That was pretty horrible. I can feel the pain for those stuck by this strike

[paul w]

yeah, but at least that was the summer (still aweful though)

[typoon]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

I think they should all be FIRED. Just like Reagan fired the Air Traffic Controllers who went on strike back in 1981.

I actually thought the same thing. I doubt that would happen in NYC though. Don't think any has the guts to do that.

[ironknee]

as long as beer is walking distance...no

[PacHead]

Those transit workers shouldn't feel too confident in their jobs because a trained chimpanzee could drive a train just as good they can. It is illegal for them to strike and under the law they each can be fined two days pay for each day that they strike. Fine the suckers ! Let 'em strike for as long as they want. Let them strike for 2 weeks and they'll end up losing a months pay.

Screw the transit workers, the city should start firing them.

[paul w]

Originally Posted by PacHead

Those transit workers shouldn't feel too confident in their jobs because a trained chimpanzee could drive a train just as good they can.

Whoa..that would make New York's subway the coolest system EVAR!!!!

Oh and Union's suck, they should just get rid of all of them. The nerve of some workers to not want to accept whatever they're offered, no matter what the circumstances.

[production_coordinator]

This all stems from MTA showcasing a 1 billion dollar surplus for 2005. Basically the union thought that they should give that money to the workers (which is absolutely ridiculous).

Every MTA employee that is not at work is in contempt of court. I say give them a day... maybe two... then haul the organizers of the strike to jail and then fire everyone that doesn't return to work.

A wonderful example of unions "fighting for the little guy" by stopping a transportation system used by "the little guy"

[ReggieX]

Nope.

[ironknee]

end result: fare hike

[typoon]

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

This all stems from MTA showcasing a 1 billion dollar surplus for 2005. Basically the union thought that they should give that money to the workers (which is absolutely ridiculous).

Every MTA employee that is not at work is in contempt of court. I say give them a day... maybe two... then haul the organizers of the strike to jail and then fire everyone that doesn't return to work.

A wonderful example of unions "fighting for the little guy" by stopping a transportation system used by "the little guy"

Here would be my proposal on that. Since the MTA HAS a 1 billion dollar surplus they share it with the TWU Since it's been a good year. On a bad year the TWU HAS to give money back to cover the deficit since they were given money on the good years.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

That's what people thought when Reagan fired all of the air traffic controllers who went on an illegal strike. Guess what? It worked out just fine and his decision was highly regarded by most of America at the time. This is no different. The MTA union is holding New York hostage by staging an illegal strike. There are plenty of people out there more than qualified to do perform the duties of the people on strike.

This has to be the stupidest idea.

When you do something like this to one union of public workers, the rest of them tend to strike. S you wouldn't only be replacing the transit authority. In all likelyhood you'd be replacing most of the unions of public workers. Meantime the whole city is shut down. And it's not simple to hire that many people.

You don't fire a public union because the other public unions will strike out of protest.

[typoon]

Originally Posted by goMac

This has to be the stupidest idea.

When you do something like this to one union of public workers, the rest of them tend to strike. S you wouldn't only be replacing the transit authority. In all likelyhood you'd be replacing most of the unions of public workers. Meantime the whole city is shut down. And it's not simple to hire that many people.

You don't fire a public union because the other public unions will strike out of protest.

Yes but in the case of the Transit workers a strike is illegal. They wouldn't even need to go through with it sometimes the threat will be enough.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by typoon

Yes but in the case of the Transit workers a strike is illegal. They wouldn't even need to go through with it sometimes the threat will be enough.

Yeah, it sure is illegal, but again you don't want to fire them. You'll set off all the other public worker unions. I don't think this is going anywhere soon. The Mayor won't actually want to fire them, and the union won't actually go back to work.

Sadly it's going to cripple the NYC businesses that are losing money during their busiest season.

[Mrjinglesusa]

This is a fun read:

http://www.twulocal100.org/

I think they have a 5 year old writing this incoherent nonsense...

[typoon]

I wonder if Companies in the city can file a lawsuit against the TWU.

I still like my other idea. An arbrator should sit down with both sides and make the offer that on good years when they have a surplus the MTA should share in the profits and on bad years the TWU has to give back money.

[MaxPower2k3]

Walked up to B&H with a couple of friends... lots of these (although some had just masking tape or a piece of string tied across, while a couple I saw had nothing at all):



it's weird to not see any busses on the street, since they're normally all over the place. there's a few private lines still running (school busses and such) but for the most part it's all cars on the street. plus a bunch of streets are blocked off.. we walked down the middle of 5th avenue for a few blocks, which was odd as well.

[wdlove]

I wish those affected all the best.

[Moderator]

I say more power to 'em. Yes they are being greedy because the final offer was a pretty good one... but on the other hand they are making stands for future workers as well, people that haven't even been hired yet, which is pretty unselfish if you ask me. And anyway employers hold all the cards these days I'm happy to see a few fight back.

I wish Walmarts employees could team up and stage a strike...or Verizon's employees who just got their pensions yanked.

When a company lays off thousands of people for its own financial well being its considered smart but when those people walk out in order to better their own well being the president should fire them?

[Don Pickett]

One of the major problems is that the MTA is easily one of the most corrupt "public" utilities in the country. How corrupt? Well, for one, we have to take their word that they have a $1 billion surplus because they refuse to open their books to the public or governmental agencies for inspection. When the last fare increase went through the MTA admitted they keep two sets of books, one which they show outsiders and one only those in the MTA see. Their surplus could be $500 million, or $2 billion, and there's no way for us to know. Pataki has turned the MTA into a GOP patronage machine, and the general level of hatred most New Yorkers feel towards the MTA is one of the reasons Pataki isn't running for reelection.

So, while the TWU may be asking for too much, the MTA is so obviously broken that only one person interviewed on the news this morning expressed support for the MTA. They don't give a **** about us, and we know it.

As to the thread: I spent two hours biking around the City running errands this afternoon. Normally I would've taken the subway, but instead i got exercise. I'm about to take a shower so I can walk to work. Car service home.

[scottiB]

Originally Posted by typoon

Yes but in the case of the Transit workers a strike is illegal.

It may be illegal, but, evidently, the Taylor Law isn't very effective: it didn't prevent the strike. Regardless, laws like Taylor are ridiculous because they attempt to defang a union by removing its ability to strike - the weapon of last resort. By creating such laws, though, the government is telling the public servants that they are too important and too needed to society to strike.

If NYC's economy is losing $100-400 million per day because of this, I suggest the MTA give strikers what they want. If I were the strikers, I wouldn't budge an inch - you got the city where it hurts.

If I were the mayor, I'd give the strikers a 48 hour ultimatum: get back to work or be fired (on Christmas f*cking Eve, b!tch).

It's a game of chicken: good luck.

[Mrjinglesusa]

See how they like this:

Judge Theodore Jones ruled Tuesday afternoon that the Transport Workers Union was in contempt of two court injunctions ordering it not to strike, and he ordered that the union be fined $1 million per day beginning Tuesday.

[turtle777]

^^^ $1 million ?

It's probably a joke for the Union.

-t

[V12]

i wasnt but friends were...im 3 blocks from school in one direction and 4 blocks from work in the otehr direction..

[maxintosh]

I will be affected if they are still striking on Thursday. I have to get from Morningside Heights to Penn Station with a big' ol suitcase to catch a train to Boston. I usually take the subway -- $2 and 20 minutes -- but I'll end up taking a cab, which I am allowing about 3 hours and $25 for.

The strike is outrageous. There's a reason public workers cannot strike, because it creates chaos, financial hardship for the city (and in NYC's case, likely the country), and serious problems for people who rely on transit/police/etc. My friend was stuck in traffic for over 20 minutes with an ambulance stuck right behind her, blaring its sirens. Lord knows how the person inside the ambulance is fairing now.

Even the TWU International (the parent organization of TWU Local-100, the guys who are striking) said that they did NOT support the strike, that the MTA's proposal was good or at least workable, and that they should return to work immediately. In fact, the only glimmer of hope is if the TWU International declares in federal court that they are overthrowing the Local-100's board and calls of the strike, which there is speculation they might do.

There's also this little detail the union leaders like to leave out that the MTA is using $450 million of the surplus to pay off their employees pension plans! Plus if you ask the riding public what the extra money should be used for, they aren't going to tell you to give a big fat raise to the surly token booth clerk who refuses to help you, but for investments into improved service and station cleaning. ($100 million is going to that).

Toussaint is a damn fool. I generally side with labor, and I do think unions have their purpose, but this is a prime example of how corrupt, dangerous, and greedy unions can be as well.

[maxintosh]

Firing the whole lot, while a nice thought, wouldn't work because it would cost a bloody fortune and months to retrain the entire workforce. Plus there are probably some workers who wish they weren't on strike but crossing picket lines just means you will be harassed for life (one of the more distasteful aspects of unionization).

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by scottiB

If I were the mayor, I'd give the strikers a 48 hour ultimatum: get back to work or be fired (on Christmas f*cking Eve, b!tch).

Bloomberg won't do that, because he's not stupid.

Although parallels are being drawn between this and the air traffic controllers strike, they are very different. Importantly, not every air traffic controller was in the union, and the skills needed for the job are available to a wide range of people, including air traffic controllers from different localities and countries, and anyone with similar military experience. In other words, there was a surplus of labor for the position. Subway workers are very different: there is only one other subway in the U.S. of a similar age of the NYC system, in Boston, and Boston does not have a huge surplus of workers. Subways like those of Boston and New York are very old and complex, being comprised of technolgy ranging from mechanical switches to banks of computers, all laid over each other and working together. Because working on such a system is a very specialized job, and because there is really only one other place in the U.S. where one can get similar experience, there is no surplus of workers who could come in and fill slots vacated by fired workers. It would take six months to a year to train new workers, and it would probably be two or three years before the system was operating as efficiently as it usually runs. In other words, firing the workers would basically play into the TWU's hands by pissing off the millions who use the subways every day.

The Taylor law essentially forces unions and municipalilties to work their differences out in arbitration rather than strike. Most of the time it works. However, the law is predicated on the idea of transparent government: the union knows the municipality's financial situation so they can tailor their demands to a realistic level. The problem with the MTA, as I have said, is that there is absolutely no transparency. No one, outside of a few MTA officials and, hopefully, the governor and his staff, know how much money the MTA has, how big the surplus really is and what kinds of future financial obligations they can meet. The MTA is essentially asking the union to trust it without providing proof. This from an organization went from pleading bankruptcy two years ago to having a (supposedly) billion dollar surplus, which they promptly spent. Imagine being a contract worker and trying to negotiate with your company while having absolutely no idea how much money the company makes. If your boss told you they couldn't afford the raise you were asking for, would you blindly trust the company?