[Rolling Bones]

Where Is Heaven?

In a special report, Barbara Walters explores a question that has perplexed humankind for ages. Where is heaven and how do we get there?

ABC CTV 20/20

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/

[TheoCryst]

"As noted, people without a religion are the least likely to believe in heaven"

[Cubeoid]

Rolling Bones..admit it, you're Barbara Walters, aren't you?

[Rolling Bones]

Originally Posted by Cubeoid

Rolling Bones..admit it, you're Barbara Walters, aren't you?

Shhhhh...

[SpaceMonkey]

Does this mean she's finally dead?

[JoshuaZ]

No, it means she is UNDEAD!

[itistoday]

I think my favorite part was when she asked that failed Palestinian suicide bomber something along the lines of:

Barbara: "So where do the Jews go? Hell?"
Brainwashed idiot: "Of course!"

[Kevin]

BTW, where do religious threads go?

[Rolling Bones]

Originally Posted by Kevin

BTW, where do religious threads go?

Usually to Hell.

[JoshuaZ]

Originally Posted by Rolling Bones

Usually to Hell.

Wisconsin

[Kevin]

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by Kevin

BTW, where do religious threads go?

Where's the obnoxious post of the year award when you need it...

[demograph68]

Originally Posted by Kevin

BTW, where do religious threads go?

Is that you after you poop?

[Rolling Bones]

the Dalai Lama was a pretty funny guy. He couldn't stop laughing. He and Barbara even made out...really!!!

And Richard Gere probably gave the most intelligent response.

Something to the affect of that "before-death was more important than the after-life."

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Rolling Bones

Something to the affect of that "before-death was more important than the after-life."

Of course. The one effects the rest of your life.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Rolling Bones

And Richard Gere probably gave the most intelligent response.

That must have been one severely deficient show.

Originally Posted by Rolling Bones

Something to the affect of that "before-death was more important than the after-life."

We'll have to ask Lemmiwinks about that one.

[segovius]

Originally Posted by Rolling Bones

the Dalai Lama was a pretty funny guy. He couldn't stop laughing.

I'm not surprised, probably he can't actually believe that people continually fall for his con-trick and actually pay him him to come up with even more BS.

[MacNStein]

Originally Posted by segovius

I'm not surprised, probably he can't actually believe that people continually fall for his con-trick and actually pay him him to come up with even more BS.

Oh no you didn't!

[segovius]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Oh no you didn't!

Fraid so. It's about time this Lama was outed for what he is.

The trail of abused disciples is growing (though ignored and suppressed) and his violent suppression of Dorje Shugden has encompassed murder by his followers as well as some of the vilest human rights abuses yet to smear Buddhism.

Meanwhile Tibetan culture is all but dead while he twiddles his thumbs, collects his yearly check from the CIA and regularly lunches with Bush whilst issuing such penetrating comments on the Iraq invasion as "I'm sure the President will do the right thing".

Damn right. The right thing for the club of elitists and colonialists of which he is a prime member.

[wdlove]

Heaven is place for those that believe.

[MacNStein]

Originally Posted by segovius

Fraid so. It's about time this Lama was outed for what he is.

The trail of abused disciples is growing (though ignored and suppressed) and his violent suppression of Dorje Shugden has encompassed murder by his followers as well as some of the vilest human rights abuses yet to smear Buddhism.

Meanwhile Tibetan culture is all but dead while he twiddles his thumbs, collects his yearly check from the CIA and regularly lunches with Bush whilst issuing such penetrating comments on the Iraq invasion as "I'm sure the President will do the right thing".

Damn right. The right thing for the club of elitists and colonialists of which he is a prime member.

You don't say? Yeah, I've seen the BS people spread about him, and it has no basis in fact. 1000s of web pages filled with the same garbage, people who would smear him without even trying to understand his position.

YOU just don't like him because he isn't some pathetic protestor, like so many other left-wing losers. If anything, he represents a strength of character and patience that most are incapable of estimating, and he's criticized because he's able to sit and have civil discourse with people that he has very little in common with. Why? Because he knows the value of interaction, and sees that everyone doesn't have to be like him.

Also, he is working on rectifying the situation with China, just not on a timetable that you'd understand... things like this take many, many decades (if not longer) to work out. He sees the changes that are occuring in China, and realizes that the Tibetans will be able to return freely some day, without having to rely on terror attacks employed by more pathetic and uncivilized groups.

[segovius]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

You don't say? Yeah, I've seen the BS people spread about him, and it has no basis in fact. 1000s of web pages filled with the same garbage, people who would smear him without even trying to understand his position.

Fine. So you aren't willing to look beyond an image. That's your choice. As for me I know people who have known him and I take on what they have to say, just so happens it's negative.

If I were you though I would be careful of labeling Dorje Shugden's claims as garbage. They are a legitimate Tibetan sect and this Lama used to be a part of them. They claim they are being persecuted by him. People should investigate that.

YOU just don't like him because he isn't some pathetic protestor, like so many other left-wing losers. If anything, he represents a strength of character and patience that most are incapable of estimating, and he's criticized because he's able to sit and have civil discourse with people that he has very little in common with. Why? Because he knows the value of interaction, and sees that everyone doesn't have to be like him.

I'd also be careful of assumptions that you know nothing of if I were you. I probably hate what you call 'the left' more than you do.

Again, I don't like him because a) I have evidence he is a fraud from people I trust, b) on investigating this I find there is a lot of similar evidence from other people and c) he is persecuting members of the Tibetan Buddhist community. There is no doubt of this and I know several people who have investigated this on the ground in Tibet. It does not get coverage (imagine my shock) but it is happening.

Also, he is working on rectifying the situation with China, just not on a timetable that you'd understand...

You're right there - I don't understand the timetable. The damage done in 50 years is irreversible. Have you ever been to Tibet?

things like this take many, many decades (if not longer) to work out. He sees the changes that are occuring in China, and realizes that the Tibetans will be able to return freely some day, without having to rely on terror attacks employed by more pathetic and uncivilized groups.

They may be able to return freely (or they may not), that is not the point. The point is that he could have stood up for a principle instead of kow-towing. And these situations do not take decades to work out necessarily - the Iron Curtain didn't and South Africa didn't. But then both of those situations had ionspirational leaders and figureheads who urged people not to accpet what was happening and that change really could happen.....

Btw, this Lama was actually in a terrorist group as you must know being such a fanboy. The CIA funded it (as they still do) and supplied it with weapons before they realized it was going FUBAr and got him out.

They don't do that for anyone who isn't on the payroll and they don't do that for anyone who would ever be a loose cannon. Admittedly, he may be just a useful tool but then he may be something more sinister. I don't know - I do know he is not what he says he is though and the fact you seem to get so angry about this issue seems to suggest you may suspect that something is lurking beneath the surface also.

[MacNStein]

Originally Posted by segovius

Fine. So you aren't willing to look beyond an image. That's your choice. As for me I know people who have known him and I take on what they have to say, just so happens it's negative.

If I were you though I would be careful of labeling Dorje Shugden's claims as garbage. They are a legitimate Tibetan sect and this Lama used to be a part of them. They claim they are being persecuted by him. People should investigate that.

I've seen his type, sour grapes and

I'd also be careful of assumptions that you know nothing of if I were you. I probably hate what you call 'the left' more than you do.

Again, I don't like him because a) I have evidence he is a fraud from people I trust, b) on investigating this I find there is a lot of similar evidence from other people and c) he is persecuting members of the Tibetan Buddhist community. There is no doubt of this and I know several people who have investigated this on the ground in Tibet. It does not get coverage (imagine my shock) but it is happening.

You're right there - I don't understand the timetable. The damage done in 50 years is irreversible. Have you ever been to Tibet?

They may be able to return freely (or they may not), that is not the point. The point is that he could have stood up for a principle instead of kow-towing. And these situations do not take decades to work out necessarily - the Iron Curtain didn't and South Africa didn't. But then both of those situations had ionspirational leaders and figureheads who urged people not to accpet what was happening and that change really could happen.....

Btw, this Lama was actually in a terrorist group as you must know being such a fanboy. The CIA funded it (as they still do) and supplied it with weapons before they realized it was going FUBAr and got him out.

They don't do that for anyone who isn't on the payroll and they don't do that for anyone who would ever be a loose cannon. Admittedly, he may be just a useful tool but then he may be something more sinister. I don't know - I do know he is not what he says he is though and the fact you seem to get so angry about this issue seems to suggest you may suspect that something is lurking beneath the surface also.

Interesting fabrications. Fact, many of the abuse charges being leveled against him are when he was 15 y/o and had just become temporal leader, the Chinese invaded that same year. Truth is, he condemned some of ancient Tibet's feudal practices and has added that he had been willing to institute reforms before the Chinese invaded. Fact, he admitted that they received $1.8M /yr in the 60's from the CIA, and condoned the training of a non-violent resistance movement in Colorado. No, no weapons have ever been legitimately tied to this, sorry to disappoint you.

You have no idea how long it took for resegregation in S. Africa (>100 yrs), and the Iron Curtain did take decades to take down (and they had much more monetary support and an activist US president on their side). C'mon, get the facts right.

Dorje Shugden actually materialized and spoke to someone? You do realize you're talking about a Dharmic spirit, don't you? A particular spirit that His Holiness felt was harmful to worship, so he had the spirit's materials, images, and practitioners removed from Tibetan temples. Why? Because he believes that spirit is responsible for much of the upheavel and personal destruction going on. Further, he believes that people misunderstand the devotion to tantra and self-gratification and have been abusing such practices. So, no, that Dharma's followers are not a legitimate sect, not anymore.

As for the supposed abuses:

Al Index: ASA 17/14/98
June 1998

... "none of the material Al has received contains evidence of abuses which fall within Al's mandate for action -- such as grave violations of fundamental human rights including torture, the death penalty, extra-judicial executions, arbitrary detention or imprisonment, or unfair trials.

While recognizing that spiritual debate can be contentious, Amnesty International cannot become involved in debate on spiritual issues...."

As for your personal attacks against me... whatever.

[segovius]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

As for your personal attacks against me... whatever.

I know how to do an ad hominem - trust me, I haven't.

It really doesn't matter. At the end of the day it's like Bush said "you're for us or against us". Dalai Lama is for - that's all I'm saying.

As much of a conservative as you could get - even supporting nukes. I wish he was a real Buddhist instead of merely a hypocrite - that's what the world needs right now. Unfortunately that's not what we've got.

Which I suppose is why he's so popular and not being hounded by the authorities as a threat. Because he isn't one - just another uptight winger trying to preserve the status quo and grab a little fame and money en route I'm afraid.

It's just disappointing.

[::maroma::]

Heaven is in my pants. Everyone knows that.

[MacNStein]

Originally Posted by segovius

I know how to do an ad hominem - trust me, I haven't.

It really doesn't matter. At the end of the day it's like Bush said "you're for us or against us". Dalai Lama is for - that's all I'm saying.

As much of a conservative as you could get - even supporting nukes. I wish he was a real Buddhist instead of merely a hypocrite - that's what the world needs right now. Unfortunately that's not what we've got.

Which I suppose is why he's so popular and not being hounded by the authorities as a threat. Because he isn't one - just another uptight winger trying to preserve the status quo and grab a little fame and money en route I'm afraid.

It's just disappointing.

So, you're upset because he isn't thumping his chest and posturing, like most "activist" leaders? He sees the landscape and works within the system, that makes him shrewd, not a sell-out. What's the point in being targetted as a threat, when all it gets you is a bullet in the head and a historical footnote?

In his lifetime he'll likely see his goals come to fruition, without resorting to the same measures as other spiritual leaders (suicide bombings, death camps, genocide, etc.). Pretty damned brilliant individual.

[segovius]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

So, you're upset because he isn't thumping his chest and posturing, like most "activist" leaders? He sees the landscape and works within the system, that makes him shrewd, not a sell-out. What's the point in being targetted as a threat, when all it gets you is a bullet in the head and a historical footnote?

In his lifetime he'll likely see his goals come to fruition, without resorting to the same measures as other spiritual leaders (suicide bombings, death camps, genocide, etc.). Pretty damned brilliant individual.

I'm not upset.

It's more that I dislike hypocrisy and if the person who is being hypocritical holds a sway over the minds of people who would otherwise be free then I dislike it even more. If the subject comes up I will mention it.

Moreover, when a noble religious tradition that I respect is besmirched by such a character (as it unfortunately often is) then it becomes painful. There is also the matter of 'working within a system' as opposed to 'working for a system' - there is no doubt he does the latter.

A supporter of nuclear weapons, Bush and the Iraq war is not to my mind someone with much of a feel for the dao.

And you really need to at least listen to what the followers of the Dorje sect are saying about the DL's persecution (what right has he to ban them anyway?) - you don't have to believe it but if they are right (ie they are not lying) then something very bad is happening.

[Eug Wanker]

Sitting through an hour of Barbara Wawa is Hell, not Heaven.

P.S. Wrong forum™

[rickey939]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Sitting through an hour of Barbara Wawa is Hell, not Heaven.

P.S. Wrong forum™

[Insurgent]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

So, you're upset because he isn't thumping his chest and posturing, like most "activist" leaders? He sees the landscape and works within the system, that makes him shrewd, not a sell-out. What's the point in being targetted as a threat, when all it gets you is a bullet in the head and a historical footnote?

In his lifetime he'll likely see his goals come to fruition, without resorting to the same measures as other spiritual leaders (suicide bombings, death camps, genocide, etc.). Pretty damned brilliant individual.

True. I wish the Palestinians could conjure up a leader like him who could steer the people into biding their time (through peaceful means against tyranny) until the Israelies leave their land - much like the Chinese and Tibet.

Agree?

[Insurgent]

dp--------

[Insurgent]

dp-----------

[Insurgent]

dp----------

[Insurgent]

dp---------

[Insurgent]

dp---------

[Insurgent]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

YOU just don't like him because he isn't some pathetic protestor, like so many other left-wing losers. If anything, he represents a strength of character and patience that most are incapable of estimating, and he's criticized because he's able to sit and have civil discourse with people that he has very little in common with. Why? Because he knows the value of interaction, and sees that everyone doesn't have to be like him.

Right, because alll situations require the exact same solution and reaction from the populace, and if not, then it's folly and barbaric? Not every sad situation, such asd Iraq, Chechnya, Palestine, etc etc., can possibly be deemed that way just because the leaders choose alternative methods in their struggle against tyranny.

Left-wing losers? I think I know where you're coming from with that silly remark.

[Insurgent]

ugh double posts

[Insurgent]

ugh double posts

[Rolling Bones]

Thank you segovius and others for totally fekking up this thread which was supposed to be about heaven.

Please move to pol or better yet lock.

Kevin, I owe you a derail on any thread you start for your dumb posts in an attempt to derail at the beginning of this thread.

You're a real prick!

[Rolling Bones]

Heaven is 72 virgins lining up ready to gang bang me. All tremendously beautiful of course.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Rolling Bones

Kevin, I owe you a derail on any thread you start for your dumb posts in an attempt to derail at the beginning of this thread.

You're a real prick!

Already tried to get it moved once.

Shouldn't have been posted here in the first place.

Let that be a lesson.

[invisibleX]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Sitting through an hour of Barbara Wawa is Hell, not Heaven.

P.S. Wrong forum™

On the contrary. I found it vewy intewesting.

[Kerrigan]

Shouldn't this interview have been done by Mike Wallace? :rimshot:

But seriously, Peter Jennings wanted to produce part of this segment, but ABC execs declined, saying they needed people with inside knowledge on Heaven, not Hell. :booing ensues: