[driven]

Just venting here. No replies needed. Hopefully this will make me feel a little better.


My Dad has been a constant source of problems and abuse since I've been a child. He's made all of our lives miserable. His main vice is of course alcohol and he is an attention whore. He also has this feeling that he is more important, more clever and smarter than everyone else. Couple that with his constant paranoia of conspiracy theories and a touch of racism and you get the idea what he is like.

He has a bad habit of ruining big events by acting at his worst. When I was a kid he got himself arrested at or around an Eagle Scout dinner I had. Then again at my high-school graduation. When I graduated with my masters degree he pulled a gun on me and *I* disarmed him and had him arrested. (I was really pissed when I found that the gun was loaded and the safety was off.) I cut him off for a year or more after that. My mother filed for a divorce at that time as well.

Several times my sister and I and my mother had cut him off. At one point shortly before my mother died she resumed contact and got back together with him. I thought he changed. (He's so damn manipulative and he knows what buttons to push.) My sister never did resume contact.

This Christmas I tried to do the right thing and talked to my sister about the season of forgiveness and to allow him to see her kids again. (His grandkids.)

For the most part we had a great Christmas. Tonight, after everyone leaves he starts getting mad at me because my sister was "cold" to him. I tried to rationally explain to him that she's still pissed about the nasty profane message he left on her answering machine in the middle of the night 2 years ago. He responded that "She must have taken sound bites from other sources and put it together to poison your mind against me ..."

I then said I'm refusing to talk to him about it any more and I'm going to bed. At which point he started calling me profane words. I said "Good night". He stormed out of my house (drunk of course) and drove home (about 3 hours away).

This shouldn't bother me, but it does ... a LOT. Now I have to explain to my children in the morning why their grandfather left in the middle of the night. It was so damn selfish on his part. They were looking forward to seeing him tomorrow. He apparently still pushes my buttons.

There was a time when I was about 16 that I had a gun to my head and was ready to pull the trigger. But I was a coward and didn't go through with it. Nights like this I wish I had. Since I apparently can't even keep my family together I'm not sure what use I have in life. (Can one be BEYOND useless?)

This just sucks. My good will is shattered. I'll never stick my neck out again. My faith is shattered ... what's the point of it all? Anyway: Writing all of this didn't make me feel better. If you read it this far I'm sorry I wasted your time. :-) I'll post it anyway ... seems like a waste of time to not do so. :-) Maybe someone has a viewpoint I missed. I'm not thinking too clearly now.

[Ratm]

Love unconditional is the best way at solving any problem. Any other approach will just produce more of the same. Give him the love the he is so obviously lacking and maybe he'll just come around to you and your family.

I know it may not make sense to you and seems ass backwards. But love can do what no words or reasoning or argument can achieve. He has a lot to regret and very few that are willing to forgive.

Having him admit his wrongdoings is pointless and will not undo the past. This moment now is where you your family and your father exists. Forget the past and live for now.You are the father now. So fight for yourself and for them and never speak the words of death and giving up.

I know what I want to say but I'm not able to put them into words that can express what I'm feeling after reading your story. I'm sorry. Good luck to you.

[driven]

Thanks.

That's just it though. I do keep forgiving him. I even let him berate me about how wrong I was .... (when obviously I wasn't.) What do I get for forgiving him? Another slap in the face.

When does it end? Do I just keep letting him throw his tantrums in front of my family and then keep forgiving him the next day?

If so ... then so be it.

[isao bered]

Originally Posted by driven

Thanks.

That's just it though. I do keep forgiving him. I even let him berate me about how wrong I was .... (when obviously I wasn't.) What do I get for forgiving him? Another slap in the face.

When does it end? Do I just keep letting him throw his tantrums in front of my family and then keep forgiving him the next day?

If so ... then so be it.

it ends when you let it end. sadly, your sister probably has the right idea - it seems the man has already ruined the family he brought his children into but you shouldn't let him ruin the family you are making for your children. anyone who has destroyed what should have been some of the better moments of your life, nearly drove you to sucide, and even still causes you tremendous grief should probably not be around you, let alone your children.

does having him around make it more likely or less likely that you will be able to be the father you want to be to your children?

be well.

laeth

[driven]

less likely of course.

I should move .. far away.

My thinking is this ... my mother went back to him before she died. She even talked me into forgiving him once. My grandfather before he passed kept telling me to make peace with him. I've been trying very hard to fulfull their wishes. I do feel I'm letting them down if I give up on him.

It is difficult.

Thanks for the advice guys. I'll read more in the morning ... I just took a tranquilizer and I'm going to try and get 3 hours of sleep. I have to go on a business trip tomorrow.

[Face Ache]

Originally Posted by Ratm

Love unconditional is the best way at solving any problem. Any other approach will just produce more of the same. Give him the love the he is so obviously lacking and maybe he'll just come around to you and your family.

I know it may not make sense to you and seems ass backwards. But love can do what no words or reasoning or argument can achieve. He has a lot to regret and very few that are willing to forgive.

I disagree.

Don't let your kids witness the kind of crap you've had to endure. Cut him loose. You are an adult now. You don't need parents.

My dad was an arsehole too, but I haven't seen him for 15 years and I'm happier for it. There are issues that come along with that, of course, but I'd rather live with them than the alternative of putting up with his crap anymore.

Some people are just arseholes.

One thing Ratm was right about - you are the father now. Ensure the cycle is broken. You are not your past.




And PM me if you get depressed and I'll cheer yo' ass up.

[Ratm]

I never meant for him to think that I was saying it's alright to except this fathers abuse. If you allow a person to take your self respect, they will never respect you. If I was in his position I would keep him at a distance—away from my children and anyone else that I love. And tell him the reasons why—drinking, abusive,—and that you wont allow him to be around you or your family in that condition. I would see him on occasion letting him know that his son is still there and you still love him. But things must change and it must progress for the better for a more positive future. And he has to want to change his ways for the sake of his son and his grandchildren. But if he makes no sincere attempt to do so then that's his decision and he made that choice. And it's time for the both of you to go your separate ways.

[Athens]

a friend of mine kept trying to keep his family together for years. It finally broke apart and every one was better off. Him and his dad get along better now, his mom is dating a great guy and is happy for the first time in a LONG time, his brother went back to school and his sister while still living on her own with her bf, shes pretty young she is now in touch with both parents. Sometimes its best not try to fix broken things.

[Face Ache]

Originally Posted by Ratm

I never meant for him to think that I was saying it's alright to except this fathers abuse. If you allow a person to take your self respect, they will never respect you. If I was in his position I would keep him at a distance—away from my children and anyone else that I love. And tell him the reasons why—drinking, abusive,—and that you wont allow him to be around you or your family in that condition. I would see him on occasion letting him know that his son is still there and you still love him. But things must change and it must progress for the better for a more positive future. And he has to want to change his ways for the sake of his son and his grandchildren. But if he makes no sincere attempt to do so then that's his decision and he made that choice. And it's time for the both of you to go your separate ways.

I think you are trying to see it from all sides, which is fair enough, but the basic assumption that all people are reasonable is false. People who point loaded guns at their children aren't reasonable. Seems to me the father has had ample opportunities to redeem himself, yet has chosen not to.

You can't live your life tiptoeing through someone else's minefield, nor should you want to.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by driven

There was a time when I was about 16 that I had a gun to my head and was ready to pull the trigger. But I was a coward and didn't go through with it. Nights like this I wish I had. Since I apparently can't even keep my family together I'm not sure what use I have in life. (Can one be BEYOND useless?)

Allow me to be the one to say it: You're a stronger man for NOT having pulled the trigger.



You're responsible for yourself, and above all, your kids - not for your father. You can't cure an alcoholic.

If there is a cut-off point at which he starts to turn into an asshole (in my experience, there is a VERY clear point - in one case, 2 glasses of wine were fine. The third one turned him paranoid and mean, invariably), then make it absolutely clear that this is the way it is, that you will NOT tolerate his behavior in your house and in front of your kids, and that you'll throw him out should he hit that line. Be assertive about it, and DON'T cave in.

If you don't think that's possible (it took me six or seven years to learn), then leave him be, and cut contact. Again, be assertive about it, and DON'T cave in.

[chris v]

Tell him you're out of his life until he gets sober. Then stick to it, period.

[Athens]

Dont bother with that even, just get up and go. He will get the message that way.

[Kevin]

Yeah as long as he is seeing he is being put up with, he wont change.

[Cody Dawg]

Wow.

I came from a similar situation. It's hard to even talk about it, but I will.

My mother married a man, when she was pregnant, who wasn't even my father. I found out who my father was/is when I was an adult and he is accomplished and a professional and wonderful. Apparently they had a fling (he and my mother) and said that he wanted visitationa and/or custody of me after I was born, but she was married to someone else by that time and since this was a long time ago, he had no options. To further the problem, my mother and this man (my father who is not really my father) were divorced and shortly after that she died and I had no choice but to live with him.

Anyway, the man that raised me is a professional - and an alcoholic. He has done so many terrible things that he should be in jail. He drove drunk once and hit a car head on and killed two people, the parents of a little 16-year old girl, and she was left paralyzed from the waist down. His punishment? He got to spend weekends in jail for a year - he'd never get away with that now - because he was "a professional in the community."

But, that's not the end of it. He repeatedly attempted to molest me when I was a little girl, always in his drunken stupors. I think that is why I am so incensed about crimes against children - I know what it is like to be victimized and hopeless and little, all curled up in my bed. I learned to hide from him, even sleeping outside in the woods behind our house at one point. Finally I told my school counselor and he was prosecuted. Nothing really happened to him, but I was sent to live with my grandparents and he had to pay them child support and was ordered to get counseling, which he did, but I don't think it helped him. He still drank. I loved living with my grandparents and had a wonderful childhood after that. He remarried a woman who is a psycho and equally abusive in her own ways and when I was 18 I made the choice to not speak to either of them any longer. I once tried to explain that I thought he was a pedophile and she tried to defend him by saying, "He was drunk when he did those things." I got professional counseling at that point, my choice, and it helped a lot to just let go and say good-bye to them and their dysfunctionality.

I didn't speak to him again until my son was born and then I tried to forgive him and let them back into my life. I went to visit them three or four times and then I realized that though he had quit drinking I would never trust him to be around my child and what was the point? I left again and have never spoken to them again.

You know what? I feel GREAT about my choice. I reconnected with my real father and my mother's family and have relationships with them that are great. I don't need someone in my life who is abusive and mean. Would I like an apology from him? Yes. Some proof that he is normal now? Yes. But, I'm not going to get it and anyway, the point is that I'll never trust him again, period. Some things cannot be fixed.

The hardest part about the entire process is realizing that the person will not change, nothing you can do will help them change, and most importantly, you cannot fix them no matter how much you love them or want them to.

Sometimes the healthiest thing in the world is to walk away. Wish them love, luck, and peace and walk away.

I have never regretted my choice to walk away. In fact, I became very successful in my life once I let go and walked away and made the choice to concentrate on the people in my life that do love and value me.

Sometimes you have to love yourself more than someone else and just let go.

to you.

[andreas_g4]

driven. sad to hear this. Though I never had any sich case in my family, I tend to keep dating with girls with such mothers/fathers. So I went though this kind of stuff (overflowing into gasoline with lighters in hand…) and I've always tried to never give up hope. It was never rewarded in the meaning that there was hope.

To protect your sisters and your children as well as yourself - cut him off for ever. If he kills himself, try not to reproach yourself for it - you and your children are more important. Just my thoughts.

I wish you that this matter will resolve eventually, and that all of you can enjoy your lives again…!

[wdlove]

Very sorry to hear about that. I hope that venting will be useful. Having supportive friends is very important. Hopefully the words by Cody will be helpful.

[shunt]

Well, I'm sure many here can sympathise with driven's circumstance...including myself.

Someone usually ends up as the mediator/therapist/mender in the family...and it's a painful role to play.

A Bill Cosby quote came to mind while reading all of this.."No, I don't know the way to heaven, but I sure know the way to hell...try and please everyone."

Don't be in a hurry to put yourself into a dirt coma, we'll all get there sure enough. Take your time and enjoy the ride...attitude is everything. Sometimes our own feelings can be our worst enemy. Remember, they came from inside your head, learn to just put them back in there...like way in the back, under a bunch of other stuff. Maybe someday you'll forget where they are stashed.

Your own strength and sheer will can be tapped and called upon to get you through the bad times...and there will be more (as well as good)...we are capable of much more than we think.

Keep the faith...whatever life throws at you, always hold your head high, like my brother said to me once, sometimes life just spits on you for no reason, you can't control that ...move on. Sometimes to go forward, you just need to take a step back, take a good look around and collect yourself.

Just believe in something, have some kind of personal faith to call upon. It can be anything you want it to be, it can be complex and organized, or as simple as an emotion/idea that takes you to another place, a place where you're in control. We're never really in control, but sometimes it helps to think so...and make it through the day.

Aren't the holidays fun?

[driven]

Everyone .... as you have done in the past ... you've helped me. This group never fails to amaze me.

I'm still not sure how I'm going to deal with this ... but I have some better perspectives to approach it from now. Thanks for opening my eyes and unclouding my mind a bit.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by shunt

Don't be in a hurry to put yourself into a dirt coma, we'll all get there sure enough. Take your time and enjoy the ride...attitude is everything. Sometimes our own feelings can be our worst enemy. Remember, they came from inside your head, learn to just put them back in there...like way in the back, under a bunch of other stuff. Maybe someday you'll forget where they are stashed.

do that and they'll eventually come kick you in the face when you can least use them.

[kmkkid]

You have children, that's your reason for living now

[kmkkid]

Originally Posted by analogika

do that and they'll eventually come kick you in the face when you can least use them.

This is true.

[shunt]

Originally Posted by analogika

do that and they'll eventually come kick you in the face when you can least use them.

...Maybe once, then you'll learn to duck.

[Volks]

What I see here is alot of bad advice.

NEVER accept abuse or subject your children to it!

Accept that the person who happens to be your father is detrimental to you and your life!
Do not have any contact with this person! You will never be able to change this person!
Your father in your mind is not the same person in reality!

And move far, far away if at all possible. This sounds to me like an explosive situation.
Please do not take this situation lightly!

[analogika]

Originally Posted by shunt

...Maybe once, then you'll learn to duck.

If you're a 45-year-old career guy with wife and kids, therapy is the likelier scenario.

[Cody Dawg]

The best "therapy" in this case, as in many other cases, is "You hurt me, I hurt you, I love you, but goodbye."

[Cody Dawg]

Dp.

[wallinbl]

Your father needs help, and who else is going to give it to him? You sound as though you may be the only one in his life that cares enough to do something about it. Is his behavior caused by the alcohol or something else? Does he have a mental illness? Give it some real thought - it's not so black and white as a frothing lunatic in a straight jacket.

My wife's step mother's step father was put on lithium years ago and it apparently helped him for a while. By the time I met him, he was an angry, bitter racist. While watching football on Thanksgiving Day, he would spout off comments like 'These damn NWords are ruining this game. I don't know why they let them play.' During dinner, he became so frustrated by the tremors in his hand that he went on a five minute diatribe about how he was going to commit suicide, telling us all the details of how it would happen. He treated everyone very poorly.

It later turned out that the lithium that was prescribed all those years ago was actually poisoning him due to long term exposure and making him be that jerk. He is much more pleasant now. Unfortunately, I never gave him much of a chance, and spoke poorly of him to my wife and others several times. He never wanted to be that way, and he didn't have much control over the fact that he was. Fortunately, other family members stuck with him

It's not easy, but we have to help each other out.

[ironknee]

cut him off...he doesn't deserve seeing you, your sis and the grandchildren...you don't have to forgive him...why should you?

it's hard but feel good that you survived him growing up...now move on...the table has turned

[Face Ache]

double post

[Face Ache]

double double post

[Face Ache]

Originally Posted by wallinbl

Your father needs help, and who else is going to give it to him?

Professionals?

It's not the child's job to fix the parent. In fact the parent should get his/her act together before having kids



Edit: Wow, my first double (triple!) posts ever!

[vmarks]

I'd delete the double and triple posts, but the truth is, it deserves being said that many times.

Some people are not reasonable. It is not your job to heal everyone. Do the best you can, and know when to fold 'em. Know when to walk away, know when to run.

[Cody Dawg]

Country music and vmarks are both so profound.



And correct.

[zerostar]

I have a similar situation, not as intense as yours sounds though. We all finally realized that we had to cut him off, the sad thing is he honestly thinks everyone else in the world is the problem and none of it is him. People ONLY change when they see there is a problem.

Originally Posted by driven

There was a time when I was about 16 that I had a gun to my head and was ready to pull the trigger. But I was a coward and didn't go through with it. Nights like this I wish I had. Since I apparently can't even keep my family together I'm not sure what use I have in life. (Can one be BEYOND useless?)

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. It sounds like you have a good life, good kids, and a good career. Don't let someone else ruin your life, or trick you into believing that any of these problems are your fault. You're a survivor and you should proud of the life you have despite the rough upbringing.

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by Face Ache

Professionals?

People don't generally recognize their own problems and seek help by themselves. Further, people need love and support in order to improve.

It's not the child's job to fix the parent.

That's a ridiculous statement and it's a sign of the sad state of the world today ("it's not my fault"; "it's not my problem"). They're your parents and you should help them as much as you can. It sounds as though his father is in need of a lot of help. Abandoning him will only further the problem. If Driven were to deteriorate emotionally to the point that his kids did not be around him, do you think that he would want his children to help him or to leave him alone to his drinking? The Golden Rule isn't some idealistic gibberish that's fed to kids just to have something to do in kindergarden, it's the way you should live your life. The world would be a better place.

[Face Ache]

Originally Posted by wallinbl

That's a ridiculous statement and it's a sign of the sad state of the world today...

Heh. I really don't think you have a clue.

How was your childhood?

"The Golden Rule"? WTF?

[Cody Dawg]

Face Ache is right - the time for "fixing" was long ago and shouldn't be attempted by the family.

The guy has a problem. Why should his son be responsible for him getting help?

No, the son should say, "We all think you need professional help. You are abusive and we think it is from alcohol. If you want to get help and want us to help you we're here. Until then we need to say good-bye." And that's the nice version. Some of us think he should just say good-bye mentally - just never talk to him again.

[chris v]

Originally Posted by wallinbl

People don't generally recognize their own problems and seek help by themselves. Further, people need love and support in order to improve.


That's a ridiculous statement and it's a sign of the sad state of the world today ("it's not my fault"; "it's not my problem"). They're your parents and you should help them as much as you can. It sounds as though his father is in need of a lot of help. Abandoning him will only further the problem. If Driven were to deteriorate emotionally to the point that his kids did not be around him, do you think that he would want his children to help him or to leave him alone to his drinking? The Golden Rule isn't some idealistic gibberish that's fed to kids just to have something to do in kindergarden, it's the way you should live your life. The world would be a better place.

There is no "helping" an alcoholic who doesn't want help. They resent the intrusion, and blame you for not recognizing that everything is your fault, anyway. That is just opening the door to more heartbreak. The best thing you can do for an alcoholic really, is to just quit putting up with their bullsh*t entirely. You explain it nicely, "Alcohol has come between us to the point where I can no longer be in contact with you. let me know when you sober up, and we can discuss this then." Then, stick to it.

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Face Ache is right - the time for "fixing" was long ago and shouldn't be attempted by the family.

The guy has a problem. Why should his son be responsible for him getting help?

No, the son should say, "We all think you need professional help. You are abusive and we think it is from alcohol. If you want to get help and want us to help you we're here. Until then we need to say good-bye." And that's the nice version. Some of us think he should just say good-bye mentally - just never talk to him again.

You guys are all thinking too much about self preservation. The attitude is "It would be nice if he would fix himself, but I can't run any risks, so he is on his own." I'm not saying that you need to get emotionally invested in rebuilding the relationship, but you should get time invested in healing your father instead of running away. If your father becomes healthy again, then it is time to rebuild the relationship. If your father does not get healthy again, then keep an emotional distance while remaining available to him for help. You should remain in contact and available to help.

[OldManMac]

People who abuse alcohol have serious mental health issues, and as such are not logical, rational, people. Sadly, you need to tell your father that, although you want to love him, you can't give him unconditional love until he cleans his act up, and demonstrates that for a significant time period. You are an adult, and you have your own family to love and nurture. Your father is an adult and needs to be in charge of taking care of himself properly. Although I was never physically abused, my parents fought bitterly (vocally, not physically) the entire time they were married (35 years), and constantly told me I could never do anything right. It got to the point where, when my children were very young, I had to tell them they were not welcome at our home until they got professional help, as I did not want their negative influences around my children. Even though they lived less than 2 miles from us at that time, we didn't see or speak to them for a year, and they did get help.

You are not responsible for your father's behavior; he is, and although it's easier to say than do, you should bear no guilt or shame for distancing yourself from abuse.

[ironknee]

kick him in the nuts and say goodbye a$$ wipe

[RobOnTheCape]

My father laughed as he burned my hand with CO2 to impress his friends when I was about five. I watched as my mom pleaded for her life on her knees as he held a gun to her head. These and more went on for many years. I don't agree with the comments about unconditional love, oweing your family, and also looking at what you have such as your own children and realizing your ok. Your past is part of you, and you can't shake it so easily. If it were there would be no need for counseling.

I dropped my father some years ago, I feel he has nothing to offer me or mine except anything that's negative. My 5 year old asked about him regularly, but after some awkward moments I just said that I wasn't as lucky as my own son in that I love him so much, and that I choose not to see him. I'll have to fill in gaps, but he's lightened up some since then.

My father can sort his own life out, but he will never be a part of my family again. That is, except the part of him left inside that will always be with me.

Fortunately, my son will never experience what I did, and knows a life so profoundly different than my at his age, that in a perverse way I think "yea, now I how not to be a father" and he(my son) is the better for it. For that I should be grateful, but all told I would rather have skipped those lessons.

I have a great wife, stepkids, amazing, beautiful son, decent life - all this in spite of him. I consider myself quite lucky, but my luck came with recognizing I needed to talk some of this through with professionals. And it helps quite a bit. Still aways to go, but looking back at those low points as you seem to be at I've made miles of progress, and much more to go.

I can't tell what to do, but I know what has been working for me. Call a pro and talk some about it. One on one or in group sessions I'm sure you'll find many options, and one which you'll find a good fit with.

Take care of yourself.

[deedar]

Originally Posted by chris v

Tell him you're out of his life until he gets sober. Then stick to it, period.

Ditto. Give him an AA Bigbook and don't deal with him unless he gets and stays sober. Otherwise, it will continue to be like . Good luck.