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[Large IMG] Roof of Ice Hall Collapsed. Whose Fault is It?
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Depends how new the building is, but I'd say the architects should have accounted for the weight of snow on the roof from a large snowfall, for a start. Apparently the snow here was 8" thick when it collapsed. Over an area of flat roof that size, that is a lot of snow and a lot of weight.
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Look after my manor, or I will bum you, literally, to death.
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Originally Posted by ajprice
Depends how new the building is
The building is 30 years old. That's not old for a building, and I'm pretty sure that snow on the roof is something that is considered a longer time that that.
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Originally Posted by TETENAL
Whose fault is the collapse of the roof?
Fate?
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Originally Posted by TETENAL
Whose fault is the collapse of the roof?
God, cuz he makes all the snow.
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The Lord said 'Peter, I can see your house from here.'
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Originally Posted by TETENAL
Whose fault is the collapse of the roof?
Global Warming?
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I'm a bird. I am the 1% (of pets).
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IMHO, there is no way we could know. It could be the architect (poor design), it could be the construction company (poor quality build, low quality materials) it could be the owner (poorly maintained) it could be the town (inadequate building requirements).
So you have 4 major players in this... I doubt one is clearly to blame... but who knows.
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Clinically Insane
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Originally Posted by TETENAL
Whose fault is the collapse of the roof?
Maybe they shouldn'tve driven a tractor on the roof.
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"…I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods,
you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts
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Originally Posted by TETENAL
Whose fault is the collapse of the roof?
Whoever it was who decided to build such a large flat roof out of wood.
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Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
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Originally Posted by production_coordinator
It could be the architect (poor design), it could be the construction company (poor quality build, low quality materials) it could be the owner (poorly maintained) it could be the town (inadequate building requirements).
The town is the owner and the major said the hall was in good shape and the amount of snow on the roof was measured that day and it was under the critical value. Just the ice-hockey training was canceled because the janitor heard the roof make noises, but the hall was not evacuated so the 11 people died.
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Corrupt building inspectors?
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Is the town in what was East Germany? If so, then it was probably shoddy Soviet engineering.
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Two more dead people were found this morning. Someone needs to be held responsible for this!
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Stop blaming people! it's no one's fault!
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I would tend to blame 1970's architecture in general. There's a good reason why old houses in that area were always built with gabled roofs. It lets the water run down easily, it lets snow fall off when it gets too heavy, it spreads the load of snow over a larger surface area, and these roofs last for hundreds of years (the supporting frame at least).
I hope architects around the world will take notice and keep in mind that traditional building styles have evolved the way they did for very good reasons.
Originally Posted by Doofy
Whoever it was who decided to build such a large flat roof out of wood.
In many ways wood is superior to steel for such a construction. It's more durable in a fire for example.
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Originally Posted by Seb G
In many ways wood is superior to steel for such a construction. It's more durable in a fire for example.
This statement seems flawed in some way....
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I'm a bird. I am the 1% (of pets).
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its called a act of god. Next you are going to try and find fault for the destroyed house hit by a tornado, or the building collapse after a bomb. When Vancouver got dumped with 2 feet of snow in one shoot in 1996, buildings collapsed. Lucky no one was killed. It was no ones fault because that was a once in a 100 year dump. I imagine this is a similar case. As the building is 30 years old it must have been a very unusually amount of snow... out of the norm which things are designed for. Its tragic but pointless to place blame. just have to learn from it.
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Brian says (9:16 AM): I was looking at houses in Ottawa... I actually have a temptation in me to move
Jeff ******* says (9:19 AM): Eww, Ottawa is gross. It's infested with politicians, and presently, 1 Harper as well.
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Leaky roof, compromised wooden beams, rotten inspectors. It can be that simple.
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I'm-a trying to wonder, wonder, wonder why you, wonder, wonder why you act so.
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Originally Posted by fhoubi
Leaky roof, compromised wooden beams, rotten inspectors. It can be that simple.
Correct... but it could be many things... too much moisture in the air... poor quality lamination in the arches, faulty bolts, low quality steel, poor roofing materials, leaks, foundation problems, poor engineering, poor inspections, poor maintenance.
Before anyone blames someone... I think they should get some outside/unbiased engineers in there and figure out what happened. I'm guessing it was a series of problems that caused the problem... not one single person or group that caused the problem.
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Originally Posted by Eriamjh
Global Warming?
That's why there was **** ton of snow!!!
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Why not just accept that it happened and push for better inspection of other, similar structures? Was it indeed in the former East Germany? That could have a LOT to do with less than perfect structural stability. And '70s architecture by itself was, let's say, "interesting but not robust." A large, flat structure like that should have been designed for an extreme snow and ice load, but even if it was, was the roof properly sealed? Did it have good quality materials in its construction? Was this an out of the ordinary snow event?
Why does it have to be anyone's fault?
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Glenn -----
OTR/L, MOT, Tx
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Now is not the time to assign blame. A very sad and tragic accident. My prayers are with the victims and a safe rescue.
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"Never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never - in nothing, great or small, large or petty - never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense." Winston Churchill
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Originally Posted by ghporter
Was it indeed in the former East Germany?
No, it was in Bavaria which was in West Germany.
Originally Posted by ghporter
A large, flat structure like that should have been designed for an extreme snow and ice load, but even if it was, was the roof properly sealed?
I have seen people in TV interviews that claimed it had been raining through the roof before. But that couldn't have affected the stability against snow I think. The mayor was in an TV interview as well and he said the hall was inspected before and there were not structural problems found.
Originally Posted by ghporter
Was this an out of the ordinary snow event?
The snow load on the roof was measured the day the roof collapsed and the mayor claimed it was under the critical value.
Originally Posted by ghporter
Why does it have to be anyone's fault?
14 people are dead, most of them children celebrating a birthday party. The last person missing is likely dead as well. That should be a good enough reason to make sure that something like that doesn't happen again.
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Originally Posted by TETENAL
That should be a good enough reason to make sure that something like that doesn't happen again.
Finding out why it happened is important, so that such events can be prevented in the future, but finding out "who's to blame" will NOT bring back any of the dead. The blame thing is all about vengance, nothing more.
Sure, someone is "responsible," and they should be punished if that's appropriate. Maybe it's not. Maybe this was because that reported rain leaking through the roof had weakened timbers that were critical to the whole roof's stability, and those timbers were not in a location where they could be inspected. At the very least whomever is responsible for the building as a whole should be ready to take financial care of each family that has suffered such an incredibly horrid loss, but nobody can replace those dead kids. Unless there was criminal negligence, why "blame" anyone?
I'd be far more interested in finding out exactly how and why the roof failed and making sure that it never, EVER happened again anywhere.
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Glenn -----
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Originally Posted by Eriamjh
This statement seems flawed in some way....
Why? Do you know anything about wood and steel construction?
It might surprise you but wood IS more durable than steel in case of a fire!
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Originally Posted by His Dudeness
Global Warming causes these storms to produce... i.e. Katrina
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Originally Posted by ghporter
Why does it have to be anyone's fault?
Remember when I said because it's important to analyze the incident so that it can be made sure this doesn't happen in the future? Now a roof collapsed in Poland under snow load and 20 people are dead.
Others are trapped in the hall and it's -18°C.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe...pse/index.html
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Accidents are going to happen no matter what. Some are avoidable, sure. But I don't think worrying about it every time it hits the news is going to matter. The statistics of a roof falling into your skull is practically zero. So enjoy life while you can.
Or go about your life wearing a helmet.
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Same thing has been happening a lot in Japan this winter. A lot of roofs are falling in and killing people. Seems like a strange concept for someone from Minnesota to grasp, bad roofs. Not like all these people getting killed due to roofs will actually change anything in Japan.....
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national...15TDY02008.htm
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Originally Posted by His Dudeness
God you're dumb. But hey, you drive a Durango. No suprise I guess.
RING RING RING RING! HEY MISTER! GET YOUR PAPER!
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Originally Posted by demograph68
The statistics of a roof falling into your skull is practically zero.
Yes, they are. Nevertheless one could have learned from the first incident already. When there is a lot of snow on the roof, apparently the statistics of the roof coming down increases. So why wasn't the hall evacuated until the snow had been removed? No, the exhibition had to continue no matter what. Now more than 60 people are dead. This was grossly negligent.
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Originally Posted by spatterson
Global Warming causes these storms to produce... i.e. Katrina
How do you know Global Warming causes Katrina?
There have been storms like that for millions of years.
Heck storms a lot worse.
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Originally Posted by Kevin
How do you know Global Warming causes Katrina?
There have been storms like that for millions of years.
Heck storms a lot worse.
http://zfacts.com/p/49.html
If you can believe that Moses parted the red seas, you can believe in global warming.
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Originally Posted by Kevin
Thought you'd say something about that retarded.  But hey, here's another thought. God did it to punish the sinners who were ice skating. He's a real dick sometimes, but I guess your belief system embraces a total asshole god.
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Originally Posted by ReggieX
God, cuz he makes all the snow.
Mother Nature makes the snow, dummy. God, makes the natural disasters. 
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One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
I would prefer my humanity sullied with the tarnish of science rather than the gloss of religion.
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Originally Posted by leehotti
Thought you'd say something about that retarded.
It's an extreme liberal site. What do you expect?
But hey, here's another thought. God did it to punish the sinners who were ice skating. He's a real dick sometimes, but I guess your belief system embraces a total asshole god.
Huh? What are you going on about now?
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