[Leia's Left Bun]

So much for that venture. I think it is mostly Apples fault though. They made Motorola cripple the first ROKR because they didn't want it to hurt Shuffle sales. I think eventually Apple will come out with their own phone.

http://www.phonescoop.com/news/item.php?n=1525

[demograph68]

Didn't they limit it to 100 songs or something?

There is no iTunes software, nor the 100-song limit of the E1.

Ah ha! I was right!

[Leia's Left Bun]

Originally Posted by demograph68

Didn't they limit it to 100 songs or something?

Yup, Apple did

[DigitalEl]

I'm an Apple customer and an Apple fan, but I wish someone could explain to me how what Steve is doing with the iPod is not the exact same thing he did with Mac OS, keeping it proprietary and paving the way for Windows to take over the world.

The digital music player thing is even much simpler than an OS. I do get how keeping the hardware and OS controlled benefits end-users in a much more stable platform, blah, blah, blah... But why not open up the iPod?

Eventually more accessible services are going to make inroads. It may not be in 2006, but it's comin'. The lameness of the ROKR E1 and Motorola's subsequent F-you to Steve/Apple is a precursor of things to come.

[DigitalEl]

...oh and what's this mean to the supposedly upcoming second version of the RAZR, which was supposed to have iTunes? Has anyone heard whether Moto's dropping iTunes across its entire line? The SLVR was also supposed to have iTunes. Are all these projects dead?

[Leia's Left Bun]

Originally Posted by DigitalEl

...oh and what's this mean to the supposedly upcoming second version of the RAZR, which was supposed to have iTunes? Has anyone heard whether Moto's dropping iTunes across its entire line? The SLVR was also supposed to have iTunes. Are all these projects dead?

Get this. The new Razr DOES have iTunes support but no headphone jack. They want you to use bluetooth. Baffling I know.

[demograph68]

Originally Posted by DigitalEl

I'm an Apple customer and an Apple fan, but I wish someone could explain to me how what Steve is doing with the iPod is not the exact same thing he did with Mac OS, keeping it proprietary and paving the way for Windows to take over the world.

The digital music player thing is even much simpler than an OS. I do get how keeping the hardware and OS controlled benefits end-users in a much more stable platform, blah, blah, blah... But why not open up the iPod?

Eventually more accessible services are going to make inroads. It may not be in 2006, but it's comin'. The lameness of the ROKR E1 and Motorola's subsequent F-you to Steve/Apple is a precursor of things to come.

I'm not sure if that'll work when you have people already trying to copy it.

[Leia's Left Bun]

Ya, Apple should never have copied Creatives interface like that.

[demograph68]

Originally Posted by Leia's Left Bun

Get this. The new Razr DOES have iTunes support but no headphone jack. They want you to use bluetooth. Baffling I know.

For BT headphones? That would be kinda cool. No wires. Right?

[Leia's Left Bun]

Originally Posted by demograph68

For BT headphones? That would be kinda cool. No wires. Right?

Yup no wires and the big and batteries is free!

[olePigeon]

I'd have a hard time with it if I were Steve Jobs. How much of that crap out there is Windows-only? Do manufacturers even bother with Macintosh compatible products half the time? Nope.

It's kinda like, "Now let's see them bend over for us." I bet Steve got a huge kick out of Motorola begging them to put iTunes on their phone.

Now I'm not saying this is the right way to go for Apple, but I can understand why it's happening.

[demograph68]

Originally Posted by Leia's Left Bun

Ya, Apple should never have copied Creatives interface like that.

Huh?

[Leia's Left Bun]

Originally Posted by demograph68

Huh?

Apple wasn't first, they don't even hold the patents on it.

This OS came out BEFORE the iPod:



Now Apple could be in serious trouble for copying. Changing the location of the battery indicator and making it green does not make it an original Apple creation.
http://playlistmag.com/news/2005/12/...php?lsrc=mwrss

[demograph68]

Shame on Apple then. My bad.

[Leia's Left Bun]

Originally Posted by demograph68

Shame on Apple then. My bad.

Some people are in full fanboy mode so they can't accept of believe it but it is rather obvious if someone else has a product on the market for much longer with the same OS that Apple uses on the iPod.

Kinda like the same way that new eminem ad looks like like a shoe ad from before Apple even came out with the whole silhouette advertising.

[Nodnarb]

Originally Posted by Leia's Left Bun

Apple wasn't first, they don't even hold the patents on it.

This OS came out BEFORE the iPod:

Correct me if I'm wrong, (I very well may be), but I was under the impression from the articles I've read on the patent issue that Creative developed the interface and patented it before Apple, however Apple was the first to the market with the OS. If true, due to laws that I am not going to pretend to know, Apple could have a case being the first to practically use the OS, even though Creative patented it before.

Or Creative patented and was first to the market with the OS. In that case, Apple might be screwed in the long run.

[Leia's Left Bun]

[QUOTE=Nodnarb]

Originally Posted by Leia's Left Bun

Apple wasn't first, they don't even hold the patents on it.

This OS came out BEFORE the iPod:
/QUOTE]
Correct me if I'm wrong, (I very well may be), but I was under the impression from the articles I've read on the patent issue that Creative developed the interface and patented it before Apple, however Apple was the first to the market with the OS. If true, due to laws that I am not going to pretend to know, Apple could have a case being the first to practically use the OS, even though Creative patented it before.

Or Creative patented and was first to the market with the OS. In that case, Apple might be screwed in the long run.

Either way it doesn't matter. You can patent something and not have to bring anything to market.

[Ratm]

Originally Posted by Leia's Left Bun

Apple wasn't first, they don't even hold the patents on it.

This OS came out BEFORE the iPod:

Now Apple could be in serious trouble for copying. Changing the location of the battery indicator and making it green does not make it an original Apple creation.
http://playlistmag.com/news/2005/12/...php?lsrc=mwrss

First thing first- The OS that Apple uses was done by a third party company. The patents that Creative has is for playlist and not for the OS and its navigation.

I would really like to see what the second screen looks like after you choose a menu.

[Nodnarb]

Originally Posted by DigitalEl

I'm an Apple customer and an Apple fan, but I wish someone could explain to me how what Steve is doing with the iPod is not the exact same thing he did with Mac OS, keeping it proprietary and paving the way for Windows to take over the world.

The digital music player thing is even much simpler than an OS. I do get how keeping the hardware and OS controlled benefits end-users in a much more stable platform, blah, blah, blah... But why not open up the iPod?

Eventually more accessible services are going to make inroads. It may not be in 2006, but it's comin'. The lameness of the ROKR E1 and Motorola's subsequent F-you to Steve/Apple is a precursor of things to come.

I agree and disagree with this at the same time. On one hand, Apple is king of digital music, as they once were in the OS world. Unless Steve is a complete moron, he is doing things in a way to ensure that history does not repeat itself. What these things are, I have no idea.

Personally, I am glad Apple controls both the hardware and software sides of the iPod (and Macs/ OS X). The reason that their products are so easy to use, is because they are designed as a whole with an ultimate goal in mind, rather than a music player from here, software from there, different DRM's from different stores, etc. There are just to many problems that are avoided by having one company on both sides of things.

I am glad that it is Apple who developed and gained popularity with the iPod and iTMS becuase I believe they are doing a great job with it. However, I will admit that I am a little biased on this subject. If another company, for example Microsoft, had developed the same iPod and iTMS, I would be the one screaming at them to open up their system to everyone else.

I believe Apple knows what they're doing and is just trying to milk all the rewards from their closed system. If the day comes when other stores/players start to make significant inroads into Apple's business, they will most likely open up the system to all their eager partners.

[Nodnarb]

Originally Posted by Ratm

First thing first- The OS that Apple uses was done by a third party company. The patents that Creative has is for playlist and not for the OS and its navigation.

I would really like to see what the second screen looks like after you choose a menu.

Interesting. Does that mean that the third party company will suffer the consequences, if any, rather than Apple?
One thing that Apple does have patented that ensure's their success is the scroll wheel. You can't go through 15,000 songs comfortably with any other design than a wheel. The wheel lets you scroll in one smooth motion, scrolling through songs/other items faster the faster your thumb moves. You can't beat that.

[Nodnarb]

Originally Posted by Leia's Left Bun

Either way it doesn't matter. You can patent something and not have to bring anything to market.

I'm not so sure you're right about this. I'll do a little research later, (or if anyone knows for sure please correct me), but I am 99% sure that Apple's defense in that case is based on a law that rewards the first company/person to practically use the patent.

[Kevin]

I see SWF is again talking about the GUI mp3 thing, and still hasn't informed himself on the matter as he was requested to do.

Originally Posted by Leia's Left Bun

Either way it doesn't matter. You can patent something and not have to bring anything to market.

You sure can. You have no clue. Zero. Besides you again claimed Apple COPIED the GUI. Are you now addmitting you were wrong about that as well?

SWF, you get yourself into some of the silliest messes. And it's all your own doing.

Originally Posted by Leia's Left Bun

Some people are in full fanboy mode so they can't accept of believe it.

Because it's not true. Not because they are fanboys. The people that were telling you that you were wrong weren't fanboys at all. Some of them were even Windows users for crying out loud.

Kinda like the same way that new eminem ad looks like like a shoe ad from before Apple even came out with the whole silhouette advertising.

No one said that didn't happen. You claimed it was factual. We said there was no way to prove it. That is all.

First the whole "Unix is less stable than Windows" thread, now this one.

You need to stop making these threads SWF. All you are doing is embarrassing yourself.

[Fred_Cokebottle]

What's everyone talking about here? Its all so chaotic!

[Nodnarb]

Edit: Post removed.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by demograph68

I'm not sure if that'll work when you have people already trying to copy it.

I think it's great how Apple uses my girlfriends favorite ride at the Santa Cruz boardwalk for all their pics.

[brapper]

Still ugly.
Oh well.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Leia's Left Bun

Get this. The new Razr DOES have iTunes support but no headphone jack. They want you to use bluetooth. Baffling I know.

I thought you were supposed to be able to connect headphones via USB.

[NYK Ace]

Originally Posted by Leia's Left Bun

So much for that venture. I think it is mostly Apples fault though. They made Motorola cripple the first ROKR because they didn't want it to hurt Shuffle sales. I think eventually Apple will come out with their own phone.

http://www.phonescoop.com/news/item.php?n=1525

The ROKR E1 may no longer have iTunes support, but the ROKR E2 that came out yesterday definitely does. And the SLVR is gaining support as we speak (prob at CES), as are the new RAZRs.

so much for that venture

see here

[Leia's Left Bun]

Originally Posted by NYK Ace

The ROKR E1 may no longer have iTunes support, but the ROKR E2 that came out yesterday definitely does. And the SLVR is gaining support as we speak (prob at CES), as are the new RAZRs.

so much for that venture

see here

They forgot the headphones jacks though. Those phones were also in development a while ago so you can expect them to disappear after the next version.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Leia's Left Bun

Now Apple could be in serious trouble for copying. Changing the location of the battery indicator and making it green does not make it an original Apple creation.

According to U.S. Patent law, it does. If it's open property (like visual effects) you can file patent based soley on an improvement of that idea (or significant change.)

If there's an icon of a battery, Apple can patent an icon of a battery that changes color based on the amount of charge.

Not to mention that Apple holds a lot of intelecutual property regarding the look and feel of the OS and its similarities to OS X and existing software. Creative can use lists all it wants, but they can't look nearly identical to Apple's.

Is Creative's implementation of the visual feedback of their MP3 player any better or more intuitive that Apple's? No. I'm not a lawyer, but I think Apple can sue Creative not based on whether or not they're using lists to navigate, but based on the visual interface, effects, and feedback of the device.

Apple learned a hard lesson with Microsoft and Windows regarding GUIs.

I guess we'll see what happens.

[production_coordinator]

Originally Posted by DigitalEl

I'm an Apple customer and an Apple fan, but I wish someone could explain to me how what Steve is doing with the iPod is not the exact same thing he did with Mac OS, keeping it proprietary and paving the way for Windows to take over the world.

IMHO, he is doing it smarter this time around... I bet he will license the iPod once someone else starts making a significant dent in iPod sales... but we aren't anywhere near that... Why not ride out the high margins while they can... and once they see someone actually offer a great alternative complete solution... license the DRM and hold on to the music sales.

Originally Posted by DigitalEl

The digital music player thing is even much simpler than an OS. I do get how keeping the hardware and OS controlled benefits end-users in a much more stable platform, blah, blah, blah... But why not open up the iPod?

The iPod is rather open... it does play MP3s.

The only proprietary thing is the music DRM. Apple has a right to hold on to that technology [in the same way Microsoft has a hold on their DRM... they just choose to license it] as they have spent a TON of money making iPod the "Q-Tip®" of MP3 players... and creating a very simple iPod --> iTunes --> iTMS --> Legal Music platform is a big expense.

Originally Posted by DigitalEl

Eventually more accessible services are going to make inroads. It may not be in 2006, but it's comin'. The lameness of the ROKR E1 and Motorola's subsequent F-you to Steve/Apple is a precursor of things to come.

Eventually... there will be more accessible services, but criticizing Apple now for something that may/will happen in the future is rather silly IMHO. You are assuming Apple will not change as these new services come online... and as we all know very well... the new Apple is nothing like the old Apple. I don't see Steve sitting on his hands as the iPod market goes from 70%+ to 10% without making changes.

[ghporter]

I hadn't seen anything about the RAZR supporting iTunes until now... Which is interesting because I just ordered one from Cingular and it should arrive by Friday. Curious...

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by ghporter

I hadn't seen anything about the RAZR supporting iTunes until now... Which is interesting because I just ordered one from Cingular and it should arrive by Friday. Curious...

The current one doesn't. The next one, the V3i, will, unless this iRadio business has changed Moto's plans.

[Drakino]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

I thought you were supposed to be able to connect headphones via USB.

Correct. The official V3i site confirms this.

Rock out without ever missing a call. Easily switch between your music and phone calls on a mini USB stereo headset. Pump up your music collection. Refresh your tunes with a removable memory card.

Source link

[Kevin]

So SWG are you going to apologize to those you belittled for telling you that you were wrong?

[Salty]

Originally Posted by Kevin

So SWG are you going to apologize to those you belittled for telling you that you were wrong?

Now now Zimph, that's asking a bit too much... that would take months of typing!

[demograph68]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Besides you again claimed Apple COPIED the GUI. Are you now addmitting you were wrong about that as well?

So did Apple copy it or not?

[Rolling Bones]

Originally Posted by Kevin

So SWG are you going to apologize to those you belittled for telling you that you were wrong?

So what are you?

A SWG stalker?

[Salty]

Originally Posted by Rolling Bones

So what are you?

A SWG stalker?

You're new to the forum aren't you?

Zimph and SWG have an interesting relationship... actually SWG and Zimph tend to be members who attract a lot of flack from people in general... so it's extra funny when they clash because just about everyone thinks at least one side is an idiot . Actually they're both two of my fave posters... cause they're the only people who seem to be able to attract as much conflict as I do!

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by demograph68

So did Apple copy it or not?

No, they did not copy it.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by demograph68

I'm not sure if that'll work when you have people already trying to copy it.

Absolutely shameless. They could at least make some effort to change something, even the color scheme. such ripoffs....gawd i hate companies that just imitate.

Anyway...thought i aught to reply to the comment about Steve and the MacOS.....

The Mac was set to be an affordable computer with a GUI. HAD the mac team had their way, it would have been priced so competitavely that it would be the dominant system today. Unfortunately for the Mac team and Steve, Sculley (who i blame for the downfall of Apple) saw the innovation and siverely sacrifised marketshare for short term profits, by selling the original mac at an unreasonable profit.

At least thats the gist of what ive read in several books and articles on the matter.

Steve seems to be playing the crads perfectly for the iPod right now. no other "system" can provide a clear end-to-end solution the way the iPod has, to get CDs, buy music online, and have it on ur computer, put it on CDs, put it on a portable player, etc...and do it cost effectively and with treamondous easy of use. it'll be at least 12 months before the windows world even gets close to what Apple has done with the iPod&iTunes. Having ipods priced from the 512MB Shuffle to the 60GB iPod ensures an entire spectrum of target markets for the iPod brand. all using the same software and licences for downloaded content.

So yeah, Apple just needs to keep riding the wave of success that is the iPod....and if even a fraction of those sales translate into converts to the Macintosh Apple wins.

As far as the iTunes phone....i hated it from the getgo...but then again i hate cell phones to begin with...clunky, not user friendly and expensive. It is DEFINATELY not a product Apple needs to be associated with. Apart from eating away at shuffle sales, it does not provide the same experience to users ....and that tarnishes the Apple brand.

What Apple can and should do, is licence Fairplay to other stores..... why ? more ppl selling songs through the iTMS service that are only playable on iPods...that translates to even more iPod sales and thus more mac sales. Apple has little to loose by doing that...... obviously the default way of downlaoding music will be through iTMS, but if users dont mind hunting other sites, they can get tunes and just use em with the same licencing on their iPods. fairplay+AAC will basically become the most common format, which is a very good thing for Apple imo.

Cheers

[demograph68]

Originally Posted by Kevin

No, they did not copy it.

What's up with the Creative Zen he showed me then?

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

The current one doesn't. The next one, the V3i, will, unless this iRadio business has changed Moto's plans.

So I discovered. My new RAZR is the older version and does not support iTunes. IT DOES support AOL Instant Messenger, which I could live for a long time and not miss. It is otherwise ubercool and as I have an iPod anyway, I can deal with two different devices for two different purposes.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by demograph68

What's up with the Creative Zen he showed me then?

Creative got it patented first, but the menu system is a staple of such small devices well before 2000.

Creative didn't create menu lists. Which were used as an option on portable devices going back to the Newton.

[xi_hyperon]

Originally Posted by ghporter

So I discovered. My new RAZR is the older version and does not support iTunes. IT DOES support AOL Instant Messenger, which I could live for a long time and not miss. It is otherwise ubercool and as I have an iPod anyway, I can deal with two different devices for two different purposes.

Congrats, ghporter. I got the black RAZR from cingular just a few weeks ago when my old SE died. In short, I love it. Enjoy!

[xi_hyperon]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Creative got it patented first, but the menu system is a staple of such small devices well before 2000.

Creative didn't create menu lists. Which were used as an option on portable devices going back to the Newton.

Yeah, I don't really see how someone can patent this. Heirarchical lists are not anything new, on computers or peripheral devices. I think they're just desperate for a share of the press that Apple gets.