[badtz]

I have a friend who lives in an older-style building.

All the outlets in his apartment only have 2-prongs (without the grounding plug).


Is there a safe method on plugging in three-prong devices (computers, etc.) while safely utilizing the ground prong on the device?

hope that made sense.

?

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by badtz

All the outlets in his apartment only have 2-prongs (without the grounding plug).

That answers your question.

[The Godfather]

Go to the flea market and get a 3-prong to 2-hole adapter. Tie the center screw in the outlet plate to the metal loop on the adapter with copper wire.

[kmkkid]

Just hook up the three pronged plug, it'll be fine. Had to do the same in my apartment.

[FireWire]

Yeah, the three-prongs adapter seems the easiest solution. However, be warned that these devices are sometimes dangerous, and their sales are banned in some places. The following excerpt comes from an engineer writing in a government website, about the ban in Nova Scotia :

Consumers should realize that these adapter plugs provide no effective bonding (grounding) of an electrical device that has a 3 prong plug and may cause a fire or shock hazard in the event the electrical device is defective or fails.

You may, however, install an inexpensive special outlet called a Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupter (or GFCI), nomally found in washrooms or near water. This will cut the current very quickly if it senses an electrical imbalance, so it can be a good compromise for not having a proper ground. The outlet also offers protection for other devices plugged downstream on the circuit, so it's best to install it as close as possible to the breaker box. Your landlord could also install a GFCI that would protect the whole house.

[badtz]

Is there any type of solution where you can open up the wall plate and install a new one with some type of support for grounding with the third prong? (a new wall plate with the third holes)

If it's possible, it wouldn't be too big of trouble since it's only on that one outlet where the computer would plug into ......

[subego]

Originally Posted by badtz

Is there any type of solution where you can open up the wall plate and install a new one with some type of support for grounding with the third prong? (a new wall plate with the third holes)

If it's possible, it wouldn't be too big of trouble since it's only on that one outlet where the computer would plug into ......

For educational purposes only:

Screw the Canadians and do what The Godfather said. Any surge suppressor worth its salt will have a "No Ground" or "Wiring Fault" light. Plug it in, and if the light stays dark, you're golden. Likewise, any hardware store will have a plug-in circuit tester which you can use to see if everything is kosher.

If you know how to fiddle with electrics, you can put in a new set of receptacles. The only difference between the old pair and the new pair is that the new one will have a copper wire you'll want to screw into the metal box inside the wall upon which the receptacle is mounted.

Try not to kill yourself.

[FireWire]

I am not sure if I understand you well, but I think what you want is the GFCI I talked about earlier. It has 3-prong but there is no real ground, it "piggy-back" on the neutral wire (they are the same, basically). Here it is:



Here's a page entitled "Make your old two-prong outlet safer -- the easy way" which explains the procedure very well. However, some caution should be exerced :

Also, some computer equipment won't work properly if it's not grounded. The outlet will still be ungrounded, but the GFCI will "trip", cutting off the current and protecting you from electrocution.

If you want a semi-real ground, it should be possible to join the neutral wire and the ground wire together, or to start a new ground and connect it to the plumbing system (ask a certified electrician before you do anything!).

The safest option would be to run a new circuit (wire) from the breaker box, which would be properly grounded. As the building is old, I would strongly recommend using a UPS or at least a good surge protector. As for the cost, ask your city council or your Citizen's Rights group, maybe a law exists that forces owners to provide safe and modern electrical equipment.

[subego]

Originally Posted by subego

If you know how to fiddle with electrics, you can put in a new set of receptacles. The only difference between the old pair and the new pair is that the new one will have a copper wire you'll want to screw into the metal box inside the wall upon which the receptacle is mounted.

Slight edit: Oops, I think you have to supply the ground wire (as well as the grounding screw) yourself.

[badtz]

unfortunately, me nor my friend is good with electrical wiring, plus i definitely don't want to try and find out and electrocute myself

does it cost a lot to have an electrician come out and do it proper? since it's an apartment building, I'm not sure if we have access to anything that's outside the unit .....

?

thanks for all the help i can't stand watching him put his G5 to the wall using a 3-prong to 2-prong converter w/out a real ground.

:X

[FireWire]

Depending on what option you chose. If you opt to simply install a GFCI, you can do it safely. Just follow the instructions and be sure the breaker is set to OFF before you start (and test the outlet to be safe). But remember that computer equipment may not function properly if not grounded correctly (plus being unsafe and risky: electronics are sensitive)!

If you want to add a new circuit, you have to call a professional, as it is illegal to do it yourself, and will also void any insurance you may have. Electrician charges aroud 50-60$ CDN per hour here in Québec, but you can find some cheaper, if you don't want a bill . If you ask nicely, maybe your landlord will take the charge on him. Or perhaps he is obligated to. If not, there may be a subvention program for that effect from the utility company or the city/state.

[jcadam]

Originally Posted by badtz

unfortunately, me nor my friend is good with electrical wiring, plus i definitely don't want to try and find out and electrocute myself

does it cost a lot to have an electrician come out and do it proper? since it's an apartment building, I'm not sure if we have access to anything that's outside the unit .....

?

thanks for all the help i can't stand watching him put his G5 to the wall using a 3-prong to 2-prong converter w/out a real ground.

:X

Don't plug expensive electronic equipment (like G5 PowerMacs) directly into the wall; go through an UPS or other kind of power conditioner, or at the very least, a decent surge supressor (one with an actual breaker switch on it, I have an APC SurgeArrest plug strip, and I've seen it trip off during a lighting storm a few times).

[greenamp]

The ground wires in residential are mostly redundant anyway, since the neutral wires in the panel box are connected to the ground wires, which are both grounded via 6' grounding rod outside your building.

[OT]
This is why, however, that it's a good idea to run some sort of filter on your sensitive electronic equipment. Not so much to protect against surges from lightening, but to filter out all ground feedback from the neutral bus, which can be pretty significant in some situations.

The best possible setup is an independent ground bus, which is insulated from the neutral bus and has an independent grounding rod.

[skipjack]

Originally Posted by badtz

Is there a safe method on plugging in three-prong devices (computers, etc.) while safely utilizing the ground prong on the device?

The answer is in Mastrap's reply. All the other replies ignore the "while safely utilizing the ground plug on the device" part of your question.

A properly connected GFCI outlet will use a ground.

Just because the outlet box is metal does not mean that the box is grounded.

A properly grounded system usually uses a grounding rod. Running a new circuit from the existing circuit box does not guarantee that the system is properly grounded.

Securing the three-prong to two-prong adapter with the center screw does not ensure a properly grounded adapter.

Realistically, many people ignore the grounding pin without problems, either by using the three-prong to two prong adapter or by replacing the two-prong receptacle wiith a three prong receptacle, GCFI or otherwise. That's not a recommendation, that's just what people do. Most modern eqipment is well constructed and with common sense and not abusing the equipment, there should not be a shock hazard. (So, to answer your question, yes, you can replace the two prong receptacle with a three prong receptacle without a ground wire, which will be the same as using the three-prong to two-prong adapter, and perhaps less prone to being knocked out of the socket, even if you use the center screw, but of course, you will not be "safely utilizing the ground plug".)

Since you mention not being electrically minded, don't mess with anything inside the receptacle cover, not matter how easy the repairs seem. You will be assuming that everything is connected properly to begin with, which is not always a good assumption. I wouldn't even call an electrician to make any modifications without first contacting the landlord/landlady.

If your landlord/landlady won't help with getting a properly installed three-prong outlet, your best option seems to be the three-prong to two-prong adapter, plus the advice from jcadam, plus some common sense in not overloading the circuit, don't string your cords where they will be trip hazards or will be moved by furniture, avoid the use of extension cords, and don't open the eqipment casings.

If, by some chance, you have a friend help you with the wiring inside the receptacle cover, it doesn't hurt to ask questions. (How are you sure which is the hot lead and which is the neutral, other than the color of the wires? Are you sure you're connecting that new ground wire to a cold water pipe?) I've seen receptacles wired backwards. I've seen wiring that did not conform to conventional color codes. I've seen things "grounded" to plastic pipes. So, in an older apartment building that only has two-prong outlets, I would think the simplest solution is the best.

[badtz]

awesome suggestions everyone! I will have him contact his landlord and see where things go from there.

@ the least, I'll suggest him getting a supressor of some sort and routing all of his important equipment thru that.

thanks again!

[kmkkid]

I don't understand what's so hard here. Just ground the ground wire to the box and hook up the wires as usual to the 3 pronged outlet.

Or am I completely missing something and you actually mean the wiring is knob and tube?

[ghporter]

I do not think of a ground in a residence as "redundant." It is quite possible for a number of faults to affect how the neutral leg is bonded to the grounding rod, leaving the third (ground) wire as the only safety link. I had to have ALL the outlets in a military housing unit replaced because NONE of them were properly grounded, and it was actually possible to get a shock from the indoor TV antenna connected to the TV. The electricians went at it, and my wife asked "Which breaker do you want me to turn off first?" They said "Don't bother, we're fine."

!!!!! These were electricians?!?!?! Let's see...my dad is an industrial electrician, my wife and I both spent time as Air Force electronics instructors, and we're also both smart. Apparently these electricians were not terribly interested in safety, eh?

Whatever the situation, and however much you might consider an earth ground to be redundant in a residential setting, it's there for a reason: safety.

[greenamp]

Originally Posted by ghporter

I do not think of a ground in a residence as "redundant." It is quite possible for a number of faults to affect how the neutral leg is bonded to the grounding rod, leaving the third (ground) wire as the only safety link. I had to have ALL the outlets in a military housing unit replaced because NONE of them were properly grounded, and it was actually possible to get a shock from the indoor TV antenna connected to the TV. The electricians went at it, and my wife asked "Which breaker do you want me to turn off first?" They said "Don't bother, we're fine."

!!!!! These were electricians?!?!?! Let's see...my dad is an industrial electrician, my wife and I both spent time as Air Force electronics instructors, and we're also both smart. Apparently these electricians were not terribly interested in safety, eh?

Whatever the situation, and however much you might consider an earth ground to be redundant in a residential setting, it's there for a reason: safety.

I assume you're replying to my post? I was the one who said residential grounding is redundant.

At any rate, the reason I said it was redundant is because in most residential situations the neutral wires and ground wires share the exact same bus terminal. When I say redundant I do not mean it's irrelevant, I mean that the grounding wire In residential outlets is almost never used, and that even with a 2-prong plug you still have sufficient grounding through the neutral wire.

In an older house wired for 2-prong receptacles, most likely 2-wire (hot/neutral) romex cabling was used. If it is the case that the wall boxes have only 2-conductor romex, then installing a 3-prong plug does you no good at all.

If he does have 3-conductor cabling then by all means he should instal 3-prong receptacles. It's always better to err on the side of safety.

[FireWire]

Originally Posted by greenamp

At any rate, the reason I said it was redundant is because in most residential situations the neutral wires and ground wires share the exact same bus terminal.

That's true! From a HowStuffWorks article :

The ground slot and the neutral slot of an outlet are identical. That is, if you go back to the fuse box, you will find that the neutral and ground wires from all of the outlets go to the same place. They all connect to ground (see How Power Distribution Grids Work for details on grounding). Since they both go to the same place, why do you need both?

The rest is also quite informative :

If you look around your house, what you will find is that just about every appliance with a metal case has a three-prong outlet. This may also include some things, like your computer, that have a metal-encased power supply inside even if the device itself comes in a plastic case. The idea behind grounding is to protect the people who use metal-encased appliances from electric shock. The casing is connected directly to the ground prong.

Let's say that a wire comes loose inside an ungrounded metal case, and the loose wire touches the metal case. If the loose wire is hot, then the metal case is now hot, and anyone who touches it will get a potentially fatal shock. With the case grounded, the electricity from the hot wire flows straight to ground, and this trips the fuse in the fuse box. Now the appliance won't work, but it won't kill you either.

What happens if you cut off the ground prong or use a cheater plug so you can plug a three-prong appliance into a two-prong outlet? Nothing really -- the appliance will still operate. What you have done, however, is disable an important safety feature that protects you from electric shock if a wire comes loose.

So basically, you lose some protection in case of hazard, but you're alleviating to that weakness if you're using a GFCI, which will cut the current faster than a conventional switch/fuse. However, your computer may malfunction, and most UPS and surge protectors will beep or report a fault if plugged into such an outlet.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by greenamp

I assume you're replying to my post? I was the one who said residential grounding is redundant.

Yep.

Originally Posted by greenamp

At any rate, the reason I said it was redundant is because in most residential situations the neutral wires and ground wires share the exact same bus terminal. When I say redundant I do not mean it's irrelevant, I mean that the grounding wire In residential outlets is almost never used, and that even with a 2-prong plug you still have sufficient grounding through the neutral wire.

Perhaps it's sufficient for a 2-prong equipped device, but not for anything that [i]needs] a separate ground, like an UPS.

Originally Posted by greenamp

In an older house wired for 2-prong receptacles, most likely 2-wire (hot/neutral) romex cabling was used. If it is the case that the wall boxes have only 2-conductor romex, then installing a 3-prong plug does you no good at all.

True. Bad but true.