[Rolling Bones]

Hilton targeted in anti-fur demo

Hilton had wowed the audience with diamond jewellery
Hotel heiress Paris Hilton's sparkling debut at London Fashion Week was eclipsed when she was hit by flour bombs in a fur protest.

I LOL'd when I read this. I just wish cameras were around. Some may pop up later I hope.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...on/4715350.stm

[typoon]

Why? I someone wants to wear fur it's up to them. Why end up throwing things at someone because you don't like them wearing something. I bet many of those PETA people use Leather chairs or wear leather shoes or even have some type of leather. Should we Then throw something at them if/when we see a PETA person wearing or using something like that?

[Chuckit]

Um…yeah. I think their whole point is that they feel using such things is immoral.

Would you feel the same way ("it's up to them") about people wearing human skin, or are you expecting these people to view the world from a moral perspective where human life is sacrosanct and other life is expendable?

[olePigeon]

Do the PETA people wonder where the leather for their tennis shoes come from? Give ya a hint: Mooooo

[Albert Pujols]

They don't wear leather, or tennis shoes.

[rickey939]

Fleece is hardcore.®

[teknopimp]

Originally Posted by typoon

I bet many of those PETA people use Leather chairs or wear leather shoes or even have some type of leather.

i bet they don't.

[Salty]

Not all shoes are made of dead animal... though my jacket and shoes I wear are... that said I just like the idea of Paris being messed up haha.

[MacNStein]

Originally Posted by Albert Pujols

They don't wear leather, or tennis shoes.

Many do, I've seen them at rallies screaming about fur while wearing their Adidas.

Cows, however, are ugly, and don't seem to draw as much sympathy as fox and mink.

[Rolling Bones]

Don't you idiots get it?!!?

IT WAS PARIS HILTON!!!!!!!



Gawd I sometimes wonder about you guys. It was good for a laugh and everybody gets all biotchy and serial.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Um…yeah. I think their whole point is that they feel using such things is immoral.

Their prerogative. Likewise their prerogative to say whatever they want. But this, as many things PETA does, crosses the line from speech into action.

[ort888]

Leather is a byproduct of the meat industry so it's different then fur. Not that I really care, but there is a difference.

... and I guarantee you that any real member of PETA does not own a single piece of leather. It's not hard to avoid if you are diligent about it. There are entire lines of products out there for people who choose not to use animal products. PETA members know about things like this.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Rolling Bones

Gawd I sometimes wonder about you guys. It was good for a laugh and everybody gets all biotchy and serial.

We're in a series?

[SirCastor]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Many do, I've seen them at rallies screaming about fur while wearing their Adidas.

Cows, however, are ugly, and don't seem to draw as much sympathy as fox and mink.

This reminds me of the old Denis Leary "Animal Auditions"


"What are you?"
"I'm an otter."
"And what do you do?"
"I swim around on my back and do cute little human things with my hands."
"You're free to go. "

"What are you?"
"I'm a cow."
"Get in the back of the truck."
"But i'm an animal..."
"You're a baseball glove!"
"...but i'm an animal i have rights!"
"Yeah right - [indicates leather jacket] here's your cousin, get in the back of the truck!"

[goMac]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Do the PETA people wonder where the leather for their tennis shoes come from? Give ya a hint: Mooooo

Actually that leather would be synthetic... not real...

[TheMule]

I guarantee you that any real member of PETA does not own a single piece of leather.
====================
IF you are a real member of PETA you don’t have pets as well (pets are slaves).

They also think animal testing is bad so insulin, Advil and a lot of other meds are a no, no too.

[JoshuaZ]

You know, I like animals. I love them. I love eating them. Though I do oppose the killing of some animals. Like whales. But as much as I hate people killing whales, I would try some if someone stuck it in front of me. I'd probably eat some people as well.

Do you serve red or white wine with people?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by goMac

Actually that leather would be synthetic... not real...

The last pair I bought was leather.

[production_coordinator]

Yet another reason why I would never join PETA. While I believe in many of their core values, they seem to have a large following that believes breaking the law is OK to promote their agenda.

It's sad really.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Kevin

The last pair I bought was leather.

I would bet that it's synthetic leather on your tennis shoes, not real leather.

[MacNStein]

Originally Posted by goMac

I would bet that it's synthetic leather on your tennis shoes, not real leather.

*reads label inside his Nike*

100% leather uppers

[scaught]

F*CK.

he just said there are SYNTHETIC ALTERNATIVES THAT PEOPLE WHO CARE ABOUT THIS THING WOULD PROBABLY KNOW ABOUT AND PURCHASE.

go outside, now. please.

[Daveecee]

Hmm... Nope, still hate PETA.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by goMac

I would bet that it's synthetic leather on your tennis shoes, not real leather.

Nope.. real. I usually don't buy that cheap fake leather shoe stuff.

[himself]

Originally Posted by JoshuaZ

You know, I like animals. I love them. I love eating them. Though I do oppose the killing of some animals. Like whales. But as much as I hate people killing whales, I would try some if someone stuck it in front of me. I'd probably eat some people as well.

Do you serve red or white wine with people?

hmmm... you fancy Soylent Green as well? We should get together for a feast one of these days. It is delicious topped with fois gras and beluga caviar... absolutely magnificent. Goes down well Vin jaune.

[porieux]

...

[hayesk]

I don't understand why people throw things at celebrities' fur coats. Don't they know those celebrities will just go get new coats and even more animals will be killed?

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by JoshuaZ

I'd probably eat some people as well.

Do you serve red or white wine with people?

Hmmm...order some Hufu and see what works best!

[ReggieX]

PETA and their actions will always suck, regardless of the 'celebrity' they target.

[DeathToWindows]

Considering my previous venting here, my views on PETA are well known.

[ghporter]

PETA is both anti-human and hypocritical. The vast majority of animals used for food and clothing exist solely because of this utility. They simply would not BE if there was not an economic use for them. It is frankly unpleasant and usually difficult to raise livestock animals. Ever been on a pig farm? Or a chicken farm? Even the "free range" chicken farms stink, the animals are not just stupid, they're often mean, and they are filthy. Without significant management, these disgusting critters do things that would turn off the most devoted carnivore's intention to eat them.

Somehow, I just do not buy that agricultural animals' "happiness" is more important than their economic impact. That's not to say that actual animal abuse is allowable-not at all. But defining "abuse" as simply raising the animal for eventual slaughter is just plain stupid. There was a person handing out slick pamphlets on campus earlier this week. They "exposed" the mistreatment of "factory farm animals," talking about how "chickens have their bills clipped and pigs are castrated without anesthetic." Um...bird bills are similar to fingernails-no sensation in 'em-and chickens in even open spaces tend to peck at each other, often causing injuries... The most common method of castrating pigs is to ligate an immature male pig's scrotum. One real tight rubber band applied while the thing is still small and easily held, and that's it. This cuts off the blood flow to the testes, and they shrivel up-viola! Castrated pig!

Ignorance should NEVER equal outrage. And PETA's just busting their seams with both.

[11011001]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Um…yeah. I think their whole point is that they feel using such things is immoral.

Would you feel the same way ("it's up to them") about people wearing human skin, or are you expecting these people to view the world from a moral perspective where human life is sacrosanct and other life is expendable?

What makes animal life so sacrosanct? From this exact same moral perspective that you suggest, what makes human life any more special than any other predator such that we can't kill other animals?

To suggest that we shouldn't kill animals because we are more evolved, or sophisticated, is to suggest that we are better than animals, which suggests that their death isn't as valuable. It seems kinda circular to me.

[Doofy]

I like that we have a Paris Hilton available as a celebrity. It sets the low point and gives us all something to aim away from.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Doofy

I like that we have a Paris Hilton available as a celebrity. It sets the low point and gives us all something to aim away from.

I usually aim for her face.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Dakar

I usually aim for her face.

Try working your way up to a three-bit hooker sometime. You'll get there eventually if you try hard enough.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Try working your way up to a four-bit hooker sometime. You'll get there eventually if you try hard enough.

[scaught]

Originally Posted by ghporter

PETA is both anti-human and hypocritical. The vast majority of animals used for food and clothing exist solely because of this utility.

so, if we raised humans specifically for medical testing purposes, and the only reason they existed was because of that utility, would that be acceptable?

[MacNStein]

Originally Posted by scaught

so, if we raised humans specifically for medical testing purposes, and the only reason they existed was because of that utility, would that be acceptable?

That's what some people are pushing for anyway, aren't they?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by 11011001

What makes animal life so sacrosanct? From this exact same moral perspective that you suggest, what makes human life any more special than any other predator such that we can't kill other animals?

To suggest that we shouldn't kill animals because we are more evolved, or sophisticated, is to suggest that we are better than animals, which suggests that their death isn't as valuable. It seems kinda circular to me.

Is the life of a more intelligent creature more inherently valuable than that of a less intelligent creature? If I do better on IQ tests, do I get to turn you into a coat?

Also, when did I suggest any particular world view was right at all?

[ghporter]

No, we cannot raise humans for any specific purpose. Humans are regarded as qualitatively different from other animals, mainly because of something called "intelligence," though you would be hardpressed to identify that quality in most people.

The difference is that most of what PETA is complaining about, from farm animals to domestic animals like dogs, are creatures that would not exist even genetically without humans. Dogs are NOT wolves that like us; they are significantly different from wolves in their DNA and got that way because humans intervened in their breeding and created the dog. Cattle are the same way; they are not what humans came upon in prehistory by any means. (For that matter, maize is a human creation too; it started out as some odd grass in Mesoamerica and through controlled breeding eventually became maize.) PETA is basically saying "This thing you invented has rights and priveledges that we think are equivalent to those of humans. I completely disagree; my dogs have significant rights, but they are NOT human and it can be demonstrated that they are most definitely NOT conscious, self aware beings in the same way humans are. Cows? Ever actually watched a cow do anything? I think most mud appears more intelligent than a cow.

So no, your arguement is invalid because there is a significant, qualitative difference between the value of human life and the value of other animals' lives.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by ghporter

I completely disagree; my dogs have significant rights, but they are NOT human and it can be demonstrated that they are most definitely NOT conscious, self aware beings in the same way humans are. Cows? Ever actually watched a cow do anything? I think most mud appears more intelligent than a cow.

Sorry gh, but most mammals are very much sentient.

Cows are far from stupid, they care for their young, they have a very pronounced herd structure and they are generally good with taken care of their own. I grew up on a farm, most domestic animals are pretty cool.

I agree with you that PETA is over the top, but de-beaking chickens, for example, is inhuman, regardless of whether it is painful or not. The reason the chicken peck at each other is not because they are cantankerous by nature, it is because they are in a confined space that is too small to allow normal social interaction to take place. Freerange chicken will not need to be de-beaked, simply because they do not display these behaviour characteristics.

[ghporter]

Cows are just sentient enough not to intentionally run over each other; rearing young and herd structure are built in. Mamals as a group may be more inherently intelligent than other animals, but they are not significantly sentient-if they were then by now armadillos would certainly have learned NOT to jump (they can go three feet vertical!) while the semi is directly over them, and skunks would have learned not to cross roads that are not utterly silent at night. Livestock for slaughter is usually dumber than dirt, while "working animals," such as horses are often significantly more advanced. They are STILL nowhere near humans in terms of sentience, and thus individual value as individuals.

Debeaking is often described as "removing" the bird's beak, when usually only the sharp tip is nipped off, sort of like trimming a finger nail. And chickens ARE cantankerous and obnoxious creatures that get on each others' nerves by simply existing. In any agriculturally useful flock (more than a couple dozen birds) they WILL peck at and injure each other and roosters will actually kill immature males. Freerange chickens still need to be "unsharpened" to keep them from damaging each other.

[SirCastor]

Intelligence denotes more than simply complex behavior patterns. Concept of self plays a large role. It affects a being's ability to understand his position, and to reach beyond himself. As intelligent as many animals are, they rarely extend beyond their own instinctual behavior. Those situations that do extend beyond the instinct are even more rarely a matter of intention.

I'm more interested in improving quality of life for all humans first. Then we can worry about the animals.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by ghporter

my dogs have significant rights, but they are NOT human and it can be demonstrated that they are most definitely NOT conscious, self aware beings in the same way humans are. Cows? Ever actually watched a cow do anything? I think most mud appears more intelligent than a cow.

When I sit in the lounge and say the word "Squeaky" my cat Squeak (obviously well positioned in front of the fire) wags her tail in acknowledgement. Tail still until I say her name, then it wags. She'll do this all day long and only wag it when her name is said.

Last week after I'd put my cow (I have rescued animals) into her stable I decided to hang out and smoke a while. Leant over the stable door into her pen and said "Oaty" (as her name is Oat). What did I get? A tail wag in acknowledgement. Only wagged when her name was said.

Says it all really.

(edit: really bad typo. That's teach me to type so early in the morning)

[SirCastor]

Originally Posted by Doofy

When I sit in the lounge and say the word "Squeaky" my cat Squeak (obviously well positioned in front of the fire) wags her tail in acknowledgement. Tail still until I say her name, then it wags. She'll do this all day long and only wag it when her name is said.

Last week after I'd put my cow (I have rescued animals) into her stable I deduced to hang out and smoke a while. Leant over the stable door into her pen and said "Oaty" (as her name is Oat). What did I get? A tail wag in acknowledgement. Only wagged when her name was said.

Says it all really.

I don't feel that Cows, Cats, Dogs, whatever, are unfeeling, or unable to express love or other emotions towards humans, but for the sake of argument, I will say this:

An Aibo can do the same thing...

[slugslugslug]

I don't think the fact that certain animals wouldn't exist were it not for humans implies that they don't deserve some kind of decent treatment. Sure, if all humans were vegetarians, billions of animals would never get to exist. But it's incoherent to say that nonexistence is worse than suffering.

I still hate PETA, though. And I'm a vegetarian who spends extra money on the eggs and dairy products that are reputed to be cruelty-free. I use leather, though, in shoes and bicycle seats 'cause I feel better about a cow dying for something that'll give me years of use instead of a day's worth of calories. Maybe soon I'll try and figure out the sources of particular leather goods to try and find the least cruel ones.

I'm rambling. Did I mention I hate PETA?

[wdlove]

The problem is that they are hypocrites like many other radicals in this country. As long as we have correct thinking individuals our country is safe.

[slugslugslug]

Originally Posted by wdlove

As long as we have correct thinking individuals our country is safe.

That is one of the creepiest sentences I've read in a long time.

[SirCastor]

Originally Posted by wdlove

The problem is that they are hypocrites like many other radicals in this country. As long as we have correct thinking individuals our country is safe.

And that leads back to the question which causes a great deal of the problems in the world "What is correct thinking?"

I'd say a more appropriate (but still imperfect) statement would be "As long as we have ethically grounded individuals, our country is safe."

[isao bered]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Last week after I'd put my cow (I have rescued animals) into her stable I deduced to hang out and smoke a while. Leant over the stable door into her pen and said "Oaty" (as her name is Oat). What did I get? A tail wag in acknowledgement. Only wagged when her name was said.

Says it all really.

funny, that. i've gotten the *exact* same reaction from cattle standing in the middle of the road when i pressed the horn. only wagged their tails when i pressed the horn. didn't move much, just looked around apparently wondering where the grass went. ;-)

well, they've taken a dump, too. never really understood what about pavement seems to encourage livestock to release. driving after a flock of sheep and/or goats, or a herd of cattle is oft just one continuous patty squish. perhaps they are intelligent enough to understand the benefit of not "dumping" where you eat. ;-)

but regardless of intelligence or sentience, the livestock should be afforded a measure of respect in the lives and deaths given them in service to humans.

be well.

laeth