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olePigeon · Feb 22, 2006, 10:52 AM

Saw this on Slashdot. Apparently Samsung sells 3 models of DVD players that will allow you to bypass HDCP.

HDCP is a new DRM that will only display HD video and surround audio if the device it's playing to also has HDCP. Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will be using HDCP, and some existing DVDs with HD content are already using it. This means that once you buy a Blu-Ray DVD player, you'll have to buy a new TV and new surround system so you'll actually be able to play the DVD in high-definition with surround sound.

Otherwise, it samples down to slightly worse than standard DVDs are now.

So everyone who just bought a really nice TV or surround sound system should be happy that there's at least a few DVD players out there that won't require you to buy a new TV and surround sound system.

Hopefully Samsung will make a Blue-Ray and/or HD-DVD player with this same feature.

olePigeon · Feb 22, 2006, 10:55 AM

Oh, and incase you were wondering which models: DVD-HD747, DVD-HD841, and DVD-HD941.

They can also be set to Region Free as well. So you can have Region and HDCP free DVD player.

Eug Wanker · 11:13 AM

Kind of useless to have an "HDCP free DVD player", since "DVDs with HD content" generally are not using an agreed-upon standardized format, and real DVDs don't use HDCP at all.

Anyways, Samsung stopped manufacturing these players many moons ago. I would be surprised if they start it up again for Blu-ray and/or true HD-DVD players, especially since they've now been sued.

If anyone does make it, it's going to be some bottom-tier Chinese company that doesn't like paying royalties.

Otherwise, it samples down to slightly worse than standard DVDs are now.

That's not quite correct. It downsamples to 540p, which is 960x540. North American DVD is 480p, or 720x480. In other words, downsampled Blu-ray will still be 50% higher resolution than standard North American DVDs. European DVDs are 720x576, but 960x540 is still 25% higher resolution.

BTW, it is likely that most Blu-ray players will re-upsample to 1080i or something. So what will be output is actually a 1920x1080 signal, but upsampled from 960x540, which itself was downsampled from 1920x1080.

ie.
If you have HDCP: 1920x1080
If you don't have HDCP: 1920x1080 --> 960x540 --> 1920x1080

How stupid is that?

olePigeon · Feb 22, 2006, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

If you have HDCP: 1920x1080
If you don't have HDCP: 1920x1080 --> 960x540 --> 1920x1080

How stupid is that?

It's stupid. But I just realized why it was on Slashdot and I read a few more of the comments. The reason why this particular DVD player is so handy is because the hardware can be reverse engineered to develop a software decoder for HDCP allowing us to rip Blu-Ray and HD-DVD movies to a computer in its full entirety.

I don't remember if it was Samsung or Sony or another company, but they made a DVD player that had the same function for DeCSS that allowed the original decryptor to be made.

So, I'm not too worried about HDCP now cuz I know someone will make the software (probably that "DVD Jon" guy) and I'll be able to buy Blu-Ray and HD-DVD movies without having to worry about buying a new TV or stereo (which are both perfectly good.)

Although, I'll probably have to invest in a really big RAID to accomodate several HD movies and content. Wacka. Terabytes, actually. I never woulda imagined having a Terabyte RAID at home. That's just crazy. And not too hard with 500GB HDDs now.

Anyway, it's ironic that they've developed this whole new DRM technology and it'll probably be cracked before the first Blu-Ray DVDs even hit the stands. I don't think the MPAA realizes how stupid they look. Scratch that, I KNOW they don't realize how stupid they look.

Eug Wanker · 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Anyway, it's ironic that they've developed this whole new DRM technology and it'll probably be cracked before the first Blu-Ray DVDs even hit the stands.

You're quite the optimist. I'd expect it to be quite some time before HDCP is cracked.

P.S. I hope that by the end of 2006 there will be a 13" Core Duo MacBook Pro with a slot-load Blu-ray drive and X1300 with HDCP support. All the X1000 series GPUs support HDCP.

olePigeon · Feb 22, 2006, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

You're quite the optimist. I'd expect it to be quite some time before HDCP is cracked.

P.S. I hope that by the end of 2006 there will be a 13" Core Duo MacBook Pro with a slot-load Blu-ray drive and X1300 with HDCP support. All the X1000 series GPUs support HDCP.

I'm optimistic, but the point being, there will be software to crack it.

As for the X1x00 series, ATI's in big trouble over that. They were selling cards that said "HDCP ready," but they don't even have the chipsets required to even deocde HDCP. Let's see if they change that.

meelk · Feb 22, 2006, 01:33 PM

there are currently no hdcp videocards on the market. ati has backpeddled as has nvidia on their "hdcp ready" stance. apparently it takes more than flashing a bios to enable hdcp functionality, and will require physical changes to the cards themselves (meaning buying a new card). firingsquad was on top of this a week or so ago.

Eug Wanker · Feb 22, 2006, 01:38 PM

Yes I'm aware of that. I'm just saying that all X1000 series GPUs support it, which means that's feasible to get a MacBook Pro with HDCP support by the end of the year, which would be perfect timing since Blu-ray drives will be available for laptops before then too.

Mind you, it's not as if I'll actually need 1920x1080 support on my 13" laptop. It'd nice to have support for it via the DVI out though. Or even better, on a Mac mini.

Severed Hand of Skywalker · Feb 22, 2006, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Saw this on Slashdot. Apparently Samsung sells 3 models of DVD players that will allow you to bypass HDCP.

SOLD. they are 2 year old models and for the record they were **** DVD players with Black and white crushing.

meelk · Feb 22, 2006, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Yes I'm aware of that. I'm just saying that all X1000 series GPUs support it, which means that's feasible to get a MacBook Pro with HDCP support by the end of the year, which would be perfect timing since Blu-ray drives will be available for laptops before then too.

Mind you, it's not as if I'll actually need 1920x1080 support on my 13" laptop. It'd nice to have support for it via the DVI out though. Or even better, on a Mac mini.

sure, they support the ability to play at that resolution etc, but currently shipping product physically cannot decode hdcp protected content. they are missing the appropriate eeproms/keys. I'm sure thatll change in the next few months, but everyone rushing to buy a macbook right now is out of luck.

olePigeon · Feb 22, 2006, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Yes I'm aware of that. I'm just saying that all X1000 series GPUs support it, which means that's feasible to get a MacBook Pro with HDCP support by the end of the year, which would be perfect timing since Blu-ray drives will be available for laptops before then too.

Mind you, it's not as if I'll actually need 1920x1080 support on my 13" laptop. It'd nice to have support for it via the DVI out though. Or even better, on a Mac mini.

Assuming you have an HDCP compliant TV and sound system. Otherwise, it'll downsample and resample again as you mentioned earlier, making the fact that your laptop has HDCP support completely pointless.

olePigeon · Feb 22, 2006, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

SOLD. they are 2 year old models and for the record they were **** DVD players with Black and white crushing.

Hence my amended statement about why the players were important.

meelk · Feb 22, 2006, 02:39 PM

hdcp is not used on regular dvds anyway. its rather meaningless. those drives cannot physically play hd-dvd or bluray content. I'm trying to figure out where you are coming from with your posts, and am just at a loss. It doesnt appear to make any sense.

also: from what ive seen recently, downsampled content will only play long enough on a non-hdcp compliant system of any kind to show you a nice message detailing that your hardware is not compliant, then it will go black.

Eug Wanker · Feb 22, 2006, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by meelk

also: from what ive seen recently, downsampled content will only play long enough on a non-hdcp compliant system of any kind to show you a nice message detailing that your hardware is not compliant, then it will go black.

Where did you see that?

meelk · Feb 22, 2006, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Where did you see that?

ive seen it noted a few different places already, but I didnt bookmark anything. the movie industry is adopting hdcp as a means of destroying piracy. they are not going to give people the ability to play BETTER than dvd quality movies even though they may be downsampled from true hd content. It makes no sense. The home theater market has been generally compliant for some time now, the worry is the pc market. They are not going to allow the possible theft of movies at 540p while simultaneously releasing those movies on dvd.
Why would you even buy the dvd if you could download something better than dvd quality? (altho admittedly not hd quality).

the logic speaks for itself.

olePigeon · Feb 22, 2006, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by meelk

hdcp is not used on regular dvds anyway. its rather meaningless. those drives cannot physically play hd-dvd or bluray content. I'm trying to figure out where you are coming from with your posts, and am just at a loss. It doesnt appear to make any sense.

I amended my statement inlight of the user comments on Slashdot. The reason why this player is important is because like the first encrytpion (CSS), it was cracked because a manufacturer designed a DVD player that could circumvent it. Now we have a similar situation with HDCP, although I don't know if it's the same manufacturer. I think Sony was the one that made the CSS one, ironically they designed it so ther film studio could make CSS free DVDs for screaning purposes. Heh.

Anyway, with these DVD players the hardware can be reverse engineered and a software decoder can be made for HDCP. That way computers using something like VLC or MPlayer can include the HDCP code and play Blu-Ray or HD-DVD discs to a non-HDCP video and audio device (or on their really nifty LCD screen if they don't want to buy a new video card just for HDCP.)

People who've invested several thousands of dollars on really nice TVs and audio equipment won't have to buy all new equipment just to watch HD movies in the highest quality, or, buy brand new video card to watch it on their computer.

meelk · 03:09 PM

we will see. apparently bluray makes liberal use of new standards of AACS as well for protection. i dont really doubt itll be defeated, but as to when..

one thing I have wondered, which is all speculation and wishful thinking on my part - is that since hd-dvd is fighting an uphill battle against bluray, but are shipping earlier because their content doesnt use AACS in the more apparently complex manner that bluray does, is if there is a rather nice security hole sitting in the hd-dvd standard waiting to be found. a "convenient" mistake if you will. regardless of how much hollywood cries about it, they do make a tremendous amount of money off dvd sales, and piracy doesnt hurt them as much as they want everyone to believe. the hd-dvd camp could be willing to sacrifice certain things to come out on top, leveraging it against the hope that people wont download movies at 15 and 25 gig sizes.

Eug Wanker · Feb 22, 2006, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by meelk

ive seen it noted a few different places already, but I didnt bookmark anything. the movie industry is adopting hdcp as a means of destroying piracy. they are not going to give people the ability to play BETTER than dvd quality movies even though they may be downsampled from true hd content. It makes no sense. The home theater market has been generally compliant for some time now, the worry is the pc market. They are not going to allow the possible theft of movies at 540p while simultaneously releasing those movies on dvd.
Why would you even buy the dvd if you could download something better than dvd quality? (altho admittedly not hd quality).

the logic speaks for itself.

Logic ≠ truth. I need a link. So far I've not seen this reported by any of the reputable sites I've been to that talk about HDCP.

mania · Feb 22, 2006, 06:33 PM

I happen to own the DVD-HD841.

place your bids...

Severed Hand of Skywalker · Feb 22, 2006, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by mania

I happen to own the DVD-HD841.

place your bids...

You can get the POS for $50 on ebay.

milhous · Feb 22, 2006, 11:26 PM

apparently, Niels Ferguson broke the HDCP system in 2001, but never released the research due to DMCA/EUCD implications.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niels_Ferguson

so, if i have an HDMI set, that doesn't necessarily mean it's HDCP-compliant right?

meelk · Feb 23, 2006, 09:02 AM

you do realize the newest implementation of hdcp will have all new keys, etc. you are all talking about this like its meaningful, and its not.

olePigeon · Feb 23, 2006, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by meelk

you do realize the newest implementation of hdcp will have all new keys, etc. you are all talking about this like its meaningful, and its not.

You're probably right, but I'm sure someone will find a way to rip the DVDs so we don't have to care. I'm not going to buy Blu-Ray or HD-DVD if I have to buy a new TV set and new surround system just to watch it the way it's intended. Screw that, way too much money.

I'll stick with mormal DVDs until someone finds a way around that dumbass HDCP crap.