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The Godfather · Mar 16, 2006, 11:52 AM

For all people interested in having a Windows/OSX dual booting, the solution to the XP-on-Mac contest has been published.

http://www.engadget.com/2006/03/16/w...sted/#comments

If you install it, please use Exploder

to post your rwview here.

Personally, I will be waiting for the intel iBook.

I Bent My Wookiee · Mar 16, 2006, 12:01 PM

I just want to know how fast it is.

goMac · Mar 16, 2006, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by I Bent My Wookiee

I just want to know how fast it is.

The same speed it would be on a PC?

forkies · Mar 16, 2006, 12:07 PM

i love this post. i will also be waiting for an intel ibook

I Bent My Wookiee · Mar 16, 2006, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

The same speed it would be on a PC?

No, they might have hacked things up or there might be incompatibilities that can slow it down.

goMac · Mar 16, 2006, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by I Bent My Wookiee

No, they might have hacked things up or there might be incompatibilities that can slow it down.

I don't think that's how it works... Once the operating system is loaded it's not using any of the hacks anymore. The hacks just jumpstart Windows XP by emulating the CSM.

And how would hardware incompatibilities slow it down?

I Bent My Wookiee · Mar 16, 2006, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

And how would hardware incompatibilities slow it down?

Perhaps the hacked ROM they are using is slowing it down?

Or whenever Windows calls some hardware it has to be re-directed.

forkies · Mar 16, 2006, 12:33 PM

i think if how it works is, if things run they run natively. now, ppl are trying to find drivers so windows will recognize the various parts of the imac. so, right now there's not so much of a performance hit as there is a functionality hit.

olePigeon · Mar 16, 2006, 12:34 PM

Meanwhile, game developers are rejoicing as they can fire their 2 Mac programmers.

Super Mario · Mar 16, 2006, 12:37 PM

The drivers for the graphics don't work because the BIOS on the card is for the Mac only. The drivers for the WLAN don't work either until someone can figure out compatible drivers. Ethernet doesn't work right away either but someone got it working. So no gaming or online gaming right now.

Other things that don't work are blacklit keyboard, Bluetooth and function key settings.

I Bent My Wookiee · Mar 16, 2006, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Super Mario

The drivers for the graphics don't work because the BIOS on the card is for the Mac only.

So what does that mean? Slower or glitchy?

Super Mario · Mar 16, 2006, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by I Bent My Wookiee

So what does that mean? Slower or glitchy?

The graphics come up as Unknown Device in Device Manager but the GUI is speedy anyway running on Core Duo, just no Direct 3D or Open GL until the graphics issue is sorted.

I Bent My Wookiee · Mar 16, 2006, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Super Mario

The graphics come up as Unknown Device in Device Manager but the GUI is speedy anyway running on Core Duo, just no Direct 3D or Open GL until the graphics issue is sorted.

So if you play an open GL game what happens? Slow or no go?

Goldfinger · Mar 16, 2006, 12:53 PM

No go.

The Godfather · Mar 16, 2006, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

And how would hardware incompatibilities slow it down?

When Windows XP doesn't have native drivers of the video card, it becomes twice as thick by invoking the card's legacy SVGA function.

Corpse of Chewbacca · Mar 16, 2006, 01:27 PM

Bent Wookie!!!

I Bent My Wookiee · Mar 16, 2006, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by The Godfather

When Windows XP doesn't have native drivers of the video card, it becomes twice as thick by invoking the card's legacy SVGA function.

So it seems my initial question of speed is more than legitimate.

Funny how someone like myself that does ZERO programming could figure that one out when GoMac who claims to program thought everything would run the same as on a PC

rickey939 · Mar 16, 2006, 01:33 PM

I'll try this when I am bored. Really bored.

Super Mario · Mar 16, 2006, 01:35 PM

Got someone to review the hack right now after begging him. Will have review for all soon.

forkies · Mar 16, 2006, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by I Bent My Wookiee

So it seems my initial question of speed is more than legitimate.

i guess so. but, it looks like the problem is because windows can't access all the features of the hardware present, which makes the hunt for functional drivers the next big task.

Cadaver · Mar 16, 2006, 02:03 PM

Wireless support I could live without as long as ethernet worked. The showstopper is the lack of accelerated video; not just for games, but the Windows UI will be slower than OS X 10.0 was. Hopefully someone will make this work.

But... I'm now really thiiiis close to trading in my dual 2.5GHz G5 and my 12" PBG4 for a MacBook Pro.

Ozmodiar · Mar 16, 2006, 02:14 PM

I would never have guessed so many Mac people would be this rabid to get Windows to boot on their machine.

baw · Mar 16, 2006, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by Ozmodiar

I would never have guessed so many Mac people would be this rabid to get Windows to boot on their machine.

Quoted for emphasis.

RAILhead · Mar 16, 2006, 02:43 PM

I can't believe so many Mac users would buy a G1 Intel Mac.

::maroma:: · Mar 16, 2006, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Ozmodiar

I would never have guessed so many Mac people would be this rabid to get Windows to boot on their machine.

Its everyone's inner geek that they just can't contain.

besson3c · Mar 16, 2006, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Cadaver

Wireless support I could live without as long as ethernet worked. The showstopper is the lack of accelerated video; not just for games, but the Windows UI will be slower than OS X 10.0 was. Hopefully someone will make this work.

But... I'm now really thiiiis close to trading in my dual 2.5GHz G5 and my 12" PBG4 for a MacBook Pro.

Why would the WIndows UI be slower? I bet it doesn't use the GPU hardly at all for it's 2D stuff - there is very little that needs accelerating, just a bunch of bitmaps.

Salty · Mar 16, 2006, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by RAILhead

I can't believe so many Mac users would buy a G1 Intel Mac.

Why? People buy 1st Rev machines all the time.

besson3c · Mar 16, 2006, 03:25 PM

Somebody's Mom is a 1st rev machine....

Super Mario · Mar 16, 2006, 03:30 PM

I have some basic news:

1. If you launch a 3D game it either crashes or a window says it can't find Open GL/D3D support or drivers aren't supported.
2. If you install X1600 drivers and reboot the Device Manager shows a red cross next to Unknown Device.
3. The GUI is fast, a little jerky. If you try to play some video some players don't work and VLC video tears if you move or resize the window.

goMac · Mar 16, 2006, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by I Bent My Wookiee

Perhaps the hacked ROM they are using is slowing it down?

Or whenever Windows calls some hardware it has to be re-directed.

There are no call redirections. The only redirections occur during the very basic Windows startup.

goMac · Mar 16, 2006, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by Super Mario

I have some basic news:

1. If you launch a 3D game it either crashes or a window says it can't find Open GL/D3D support or drivers aren't supported.
2. If you install X1600 drivers and reboot the Device Manager shows a red cross next to Unknown Device.
3. The GUI is fast, a little jerky. If you try to play some video some players don't work and VLC video tears if you move or resize the window.

People are working with the 3rd party ATI drivers to get this fixed. They're already working and finding the X1600 on the iMac. There just appears to be a few glitches that will be fixed.

Super Mario · Mar 16, 2006, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

People are working with the 3rd party ATI drivers to get this fixed. They're already working and finding the X1600 on the iMac. There just appears to be a few glitches that will be fixed.

Have you a link to that info to pass to a tester?

Judge_Fire · Mar 16, 2006, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Ozmodiar

I would never have guessed so many Mac people would be this rabid to get Windows to boot on their machine.

This is the perfect excuse to simultaneously:

• get rid of old PC
• get a new Mac.

I'd call it a Win-Win situation but something seems wrong with that...

J

AppleOptionFour · Mar 16, 2006, 04:19 PM

Trying the install on a Core Solo mac mini.

Got the EFI boot loader thing to work, but now its stuck on the posting screen and the install CD won't continue to load.

Checking the XP disk now.

______
AOF

ambush · Mar 16, 2006, 04:21 PM

I'm Sooooo In!

goMac · Mar 16, 2006, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by Super Mario

Have you a link to that info to pass to a tester?

The forum appears to be down under the traffic where people were getting the drivers working. They're the Omega drivers or whatever.

I Bent My Wookiee · Mar 16, 2006, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

The same speed it would be on a PC?

You wanna say sorry or back-pedal on it?

Mister Elf · Mar 16, 2006, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by I Bent My Wookiee

You wanna say sorry or back-pedal on it?

Why bother? Once the issues get sorted out (this is the first day!), then it'll just be another PC...but a little prettier.

Hawkeye_a · Mar 16, 2006, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by I Bent My Wookiee

So it seems my initial question of speed is more than legitimate.

Funny how someone like myself that does ZERO programming could figure that one out when GoMac who claims to program thought everything would run the same as on a PC

i agree with you. just cause u can get an OS to boot on a particular configuration of hardware, doesnt mean that the OS (especialoly the stupified windows OS) will recognize devices attached such as modems, wireless cards, graphics cards, etc.

It's the same deal with Linux on different hardware. booting is the tough part, getting drivers written is the next step.

On a side note, im a bit iffy as to installing Windows on my machine....kinda defeats the purpose imo. i never thought of it from a developers perspective.......it COULD be a bad thing for the whole Mac ecosystem. fewer developers, fewer apps, fewer ppl using MacOS as their primary OS. ack.

Cheers

davesimondotcom · Mar 16, 2006, 06:06 PM

I don't see what the big deal is... I run XP through VirtualPC for testing websites in Windows... And I don't have to reboot...

Spliffdaddy · Mar 16, 2006, 06:09 PM

I wouldn't be very concerned about getting Windows to work on your Mac just yet.

Wait until next year when Steve Jobs dream is realized.

And all Macs ship with Windows, instead of the Mac OS.

Apple is a hardware company, remember?

greenamp · Mar 16, 2006, 06:20 PM

I'd dual boot Windows on my Intel Mac, but I wouldn't use a legal copy of Windows. That POS should not cost money to use.

goMac · Mar 16, 2006, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by I Bent My Wookiee

You wanna say sorry or back-pedal on it?

What? It is the same speed as PC. They just need to get the graphics drivers to know that the X1600 is on the system. It's running the same speed as a PC in VGA mode, which would still blow any emulator out of the water.

goMac · Mar 16, 2006, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by The Godfather

When Windows XP doesn't have native drivers of the video card, it becomes twice as thick by invoking the card's legacy SVGA function.

But the Windows GUI is nothing like OS X's GUI. It doesn't do much to take advantage of an accelerated framebuffer.

The Godfather · 07:29 PM

^ Microsoft has been using hardware acceleration for their GUI since BitBLT in Windows 3
http://support.microsoft.com/?scid=kb;en-us;263391
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_processing_unit
With no acceleration (no drivers or Safe Mode) the Snappiness turns into Jaguar-like performance.

Hi I'm Ben · Mar 16, 2006, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

I don't see what the big deal is... I run XP through VirtualPC for testing websites in Windows... And I don't have to reboot...

because VPC is slow, VPC doesn't support a game, or any real software that is windows specific for which you actually plan to use for work. If you say otherwise you're only lying to yourself.

strictlyplaid · Mar 16, 2006, 07:42 PM

This is exciting. If they get this thing working well enough, e.g., to run games at full speed, I'll buy a Mac for my next computer. I'd love to dual-boot with the Mac OS, but I've got too many work applications for PC that I need to use; some of them exist for Mac, but I can't afford to re-buy them all. (Plus, my Tablet PC is obviously PC only.)

B Gallagher · Mar 16, 2006, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

I wouldn't be very concerned about getting Windows to work on your Mac just yet.

Wait until next year when Steve Jobs dream is realized.

And all Macs ship with Windows, instead of the Mac OS.

Apple is a hardware company, remember?

Can't wait to come back to this thread in a year's time and prove you wrong.

Good news it seems to be working for those who need both systems.

Spliffdaddy · Mar 16, 2006, 09:05 PM

Would you ever have thought Apple would be using Intel processors?

Ain't much of a stretch to think that next year Apple will be using a Windows OS.

Steve Jobs will break the news to you in a way that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Just like he did with Core Duo.

OldManMac · Mar 16, 2006, 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Would you ever have thought Apple would be using Intel processors?

Ain't much of a stretch to think that next year Apple will be using a Windows OS.

Steve Jobs will break the news to you in a way that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Just like he did with Core Duo.

Riiiiigght; they're going to throw out all the investments they've made in the last few years, and all the alliances with developers, just to become another "me too" Windoze box maker, and watch their stock plummet. Are you really that idiot, John Dvorak?

In case you haven't been paying attention (which is rather obvious), Apple has just come off its best year ever, in hardware sales and software sales, and people are switching to the Mac, precisely because it's a better platform, and Apple is going to throw that out the window, because Steve's "secret dream" is to move to the Windoze platform! I have just one question for you; what are you on? As always, you're good for a laugh, and you're a trip, indeed!